Pinned ID General Chat

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    • TheChange wrote:

      And what's the rest of the list? Comparing in a vacuum is quite difficult.
      Sorry, forgot to give my list. Some of the points might be added up wrong as it was late last night and I was tired...

      Prophet 725 Arm 5 Aeg 5+ GENERAL
      Prophet of Shamut
      Wizard Master: Pyromancy
      Bull of Shamut; Infernal Weapon, Sh.
      Basalt Infusion
      Tablet of Vezodinezh, Talisman of the Void

      Lamassu Scholar 375
      Book of Arcane Mastery

      CHARACTERS = 1100


      CORE 1152 /1125

      20 IW 435
      BB; Mus, St
      Flaming Standard

      21 CG 542 (Was 26)
      Fl Axe (3+); Mus, St
      Flaming Standard

      30 Vassal Levies 175
      PW


      SPECIAL

      6 Kadim Incarnates 550
      Ch

      18 Disciples of Lugar 491
      GW
      Ch, St.
      Banner of Discipline

      5 Vassal Cavalry 190


      "BOOM"

      Infernal Artillery 240
      Titan mortar


      "AAAARRRGH RUN"

      Kadim Titan 410 Walking Volcano
      Naphtha Thrower

      Citizen Giant 385
      Infernal Lash
      BIG BROTHER
    • a new army book, the right time to add a grain of salt. Sory for my bad english ;)

      overall a good job, it makes you want to list and it is already positive

      The magic object.

      We regret the disappearance of UNFLAMME (the best object of IDs).
      EYE OF BULL is for me anecdotal (maybe the price is too expensive?)
      Icon of ashukuk looks difficult to optimize (worn too short? The use side?) FLAME OF EAST looks easier to use.
      Their Master’s Banner OK

      Army rules

      I'm ok with all the rules, the simplification, just mechanized support, I'm not sure it's useful. (is it to prevent the gunnery team to chaff?)
      the war machines, ok

      BB the rules seem OK but very All in, I don't really see how we are going to make them profitable. an enemy in a setting (very many now) and we go into the abysses of nullity (maybe 4+ to touch)

      volcanic embrace polarizes the army and becomes an anti-armor army. Hello KOEs

      Flintox back to origin

      Unit

      The incarnate kadim, I find them strong, but expensive. the loss of light troop I can live with but add the possibility of having a musician (or a champion musician) (see a full EMC)

      Lugar look like OK (need to try)


      The kadim Chariot was not very playful, there it is not much sexier ... I think something is missing.

      The little tauruk with RESI 5 don't seem too bad to me! it makes you want to test. to regain the mobility that the kadim have lost.

      Gunnery team is for me the big black point of this version. I don't understand how to play them. it is cheap but you have to pay them at least 15 dwarfs to make them move. So it's not going to be mobile, the tax of 15 or 20 dwarves is amazing. for one shot or 2. In the fight we will lose a lot of attacks and give free combat point ...
      For me it's unplayable

      i'm ok with new kadim mouvement 7 / 7 for the shooting kadim, it's a little bit slow...

      One Tank per army, i'm ok with that !
    • Jarec wrote:

      Well. This is it then, huh?

      I kept my distance from the forums for the sake of my sanity, and told to myself I'd give this one last chance to maybe steer the book to a direction I enjoy playing. And looking a handful of pages back I see a comment from Tyranno saying this truly is the last big thing before gold.

      I need to vent out my frustrations a bit so forgive me for such an overtly negative post.



      Dec 26 2019Big MortarBig FlamerBig FlamerGunnery TeamGunnery TeamCC Engine
      May 13 2020Big ArtilleryBig ArtilleryGunnery TeamGunnery TeamCC EngineBastion
      July 23 2020Big ArtilleryBig ArtilleryGunnery TeamGunnery Team
      April 8 2021Big ArtilleryBig ArtilleryGunnery Team


      First I'd like to present my Table of Declining Industry, which is also my biggest concern with ID.

      Patch after patch the amount of war machines has gone down, and what I remember reading it was because some other buff happened somewhere else. Be it allowing two Engines or having extra effects on hits or just plain more strength.
      Most of these buffs are now reverted, yet the rippling effects on the amount of artillery still stay.

      In my foil-clad frustration this seems like some sort of social experiment long con of which results we now see, but it had to be stretched out for the people not to get fuming mad instantly.



      My second biggest concern was, to my surprise, somewhat addressed!

      The way that everything was chained to each other at the start of this process is now reduced or made optional (as it should).
      The first LAB beta introduced us to a tangled mess of forced, proximity based synergies that most likely were there to raise the skill cap. But what it also did, was to raise the skill floor along with the feeling of having really restricted and uninspiring meta game (of which I think the Vassal spam was a part of). And reduced the emergent and nuanced strategies that would come up during playing.

      Dwarfs chained to Slaves - Shooting crutch was removed
      Dwarfs chained to Vassals - Oil Flasks still there
      Kadim chained to Vassals - Oil Flasks still there
      Vassals, Kadim and Slaves chained to Dwarfs - The abusable combat buff removed or made optional


      I would have liked to see the Oil Flasks go optional too, for those who don't like to max out on flaming attacks but enjoy the cheap bodies Vassals provide.



      After these two big things, I'm still a bit iffy about the BB's, the forcefully applied guidelines and few other things.

      The Blunderbuss has gone through so many revisions it's hard to keep up with them.

      This new one seems to be the most powerful version of the weapon. I kinda like how it is almost like a Poison weapon for its low Aim score. I'm a bit perplexed by its swing potential. I though the project's M.O. was to push everything towards the median and remove all the fun extremities?
      Anyway, I still think it's odd to have a big block of shooters running around, and would've much rather seen smaller supporty shooter units with maybe added ranges but March And Shoot removed. That would be the more logical option a shooter unit would work, especially when there are no gains to be had from the extra ranks.
      And if player feels like they are being overrun too easily then they could go in and add the ranks, but that's not even an option now.

      But that's them guidelines I guess...

      Are we then to have a big block of EoS shooters when their LAB hits? Because I'd think they are all about the big blocks too, and are most certainly less elite than ID to warrant bigger unit sizes?


      The Vassal Cavalry and Taurukhs then.

      These two seem to be creeping up on points, especially the Vassal which were almost on level with the Taurukhs last time I saw.
      This seems to me like another spot where the guidelines are trying to force a square peg through a round hole. Vassals need to be so elite they encroach the Taurukhs in eliteness, so the Taurukhs needed to have something to do to them, and now it seems the pressure is piling up and they are catching up on the Annointed even.


      Slaves are now a bit better with their reduced complexity.
      I really would like for them to have the Giant's fire weapon treatment of rewording the buffs so that they are not needed to be "preloaded", but can be activated as soon, or as close to, when actually needed. It's always a hassle to remember to do stuff like this one turn beforehand.

      Bastion is still this weird relic of appeasing the guidelines and have a deep shooting unit work.
      The forced big unit of BB's and this thing together is just too much. I just want to have a nice compact unit of support shooters, not this monstrosity.

      I was pretty hyped when seeing the amount of text below Kadim Titan, such a big and cool thing deserves a handful of fun special rules, but quickly figured out it was just a switcheroo of the old Juggernaut.
      Well, I'm still glad it has its one unique thing. This time it seems to be an offensive close combat de-buff.

      Taurukh Ritual seemed to have lost its main draw, the armor. Is it really worth taking anymore? Seems awfully costly for what it gives you now.

      Infernal Weapons still the worst weapons for most of the units who can wield them.

      Still weirded about Warriors being able to have a FiER, but only with GW's and Guards' guns being able to shoot from third rank.
      What makes these weapons so special in comparison, for example, to a Handgun for them being able to do so?


      There are other changes that I'm not that passioned about, like Lugars, Artillery Weapons (not counting the increased FoI!) and Volcanic Embrace.
      A change is a change, maybe it'll work out?


      And hey, some positive too! Like Slaves and Oil Flasks going more streamlined, Vassals got cheap again, but these are not the main focus of this fuming post.


      And to end with a generic question about the game.
      Is there a mandate, or has someone higher up whispered something about this game needing to go more short ranged and shoving all the units to the middle of the board where the "skillful" "plays" happen? To me it seems quite a lot like so.

      Or is there a thing to reduce the internal contrast of the races to meet up with tourney plays?
      Meaning that all lists within a single faction should be more in line with each other, so that one would know better how to deal with an army just based on which one it is.
      This is my second foil-theory which I came up with after seeing the new DE.
      Being an outsider, not knowing any nuances about them, it just seemed like there is only two units in the army now; a fast glass cannon elf and a monster, whereas the last time I looked at the book there were nekkid poison chicks and executioners who laugh at your toughness and tough raptor riders and heavily-ish armored pirates. It now looks really dull and samey to me, and I can't see myself getting into it at all.

      That theory got a bit crumpled after seeing the reduced ID synergies (because with ID you should always expect mixed forces). And I really hope that's just me drawing too many conclusions.

      I agree with most of these perplexities.

      I added my 2 cents to the feedback thread.
    • GeeksLeague wrote:

      Gunnery team is for me the big black point of this version. I don't understand how to play them. it is cheap but you have to pay them at least 15 dwarfs to make them move. So it's not going to be mobile, the tax of 15 or 20 dwarves is amazing. for one shot or 2. In the fight we will lose a lot of attacks and give free combat point ...
      For me it's unplayable
      I totally agree. I was thinking for few hours how to field them and found no solution. Absolutely unplayable concept. For one shot before being charged you pay 160 points then it just takes space in CC. Really hate that change with a passion. Could live with everything else in new book with few grumbles, but this is just....big meh.

      btw, flamethrower on tank is silly now as well. One shot at 12 range and then CC where you think "I could've field rock crusher instead". Really?
    • For now I feel like the best solution is 2 Rockets and 1 static Flamer. I think I'll address mobile shooting to heavy infantry.
      Can't write down a list for now, but my idea is:

      Prophet
      Lamassu
      Vizier
      2x15 flintlock
      20 blunderbusses
      20 vassals
      2x rockets
      1x static flamer
      10 bulls with blunderbuss
      3 big bulls
      1 giant

      Not sure if I'm within 4500 points though.
    • So can someone help me understand when the new Gunnery Team is an effective choice. It has the same offensive out put as the Artillery so the comparison there is natural.

      The gunnery team's always more points to put on the field (needing the at least 260 escort unit). It's mobile but much less range means that it takes 2 movement phases to make the difference for the Mortar and Rockets. And if going around LOS blockers is the goal, dwarves still have pretty bad lateral movement.

      I guess you could have a ~430 point scoring 18'' artillery support piece? A weirdly aggressive flamer/dwarf tank block?
    • How much difference would it make if gunnery teams didn't need to be in the centre of units. On the side, they'd contribute 4 models tonwards ranks, and you could simply have a wider frontage to avoid losing out on shots, and it doesn't displace combat attacks either.

      Having to be central feels quite punishing, at least for bigger blocks. Might work fine with 15 man flints - I guess go 6 wide 3 deep and loose just 1 shot, still probably get most of your attacks in.

      Is this what was intended/envisaged by designers, using it more for support/small blocks rather than in big core blocks?
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    • SlaveToThePyre wrote:

      Actually they were already safe against shooting attacks due to their small size, their high armour, and hard target.

      I may like this a little more if they were FoI 1 and if they were waaaaay less powerful, so that I could play something like 4 of them while still being able to deploy an Infernal Engine.
      You'd have to bring 4 dwarf units for that, too... that's the way stricter limitation than FoI points IMO
    • oh wow, I totally missed the nuances of the gunnery team. I was just excited about how cool they look in the unit.

      I gotta agree with everyone else.
      They take up 4 spaces, but only bring 3 wounds and 2 attacks, not really equivalent to the space 4 dwarfs would take up in the front line. And they don't have shield or weapon option to match the unit.
      If opponent gets into combat it's better to attack the unit and leave the gunnery team alone so the dwarf unit has reduced get less attacks.

      So basically it's a 165pt upgrade to an infantry unit that makes it less combat effective in exchange for a gun that can missfire. And costs 2 fires of industry.
    • Is there a maximum we can put in one unit? If I put in two, do I deploy the dwarfs, then the first gunnery team, and then the last gunnery team essentially counting as three deployments?

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    • SlaveToThePyre wrote:

      Actually they were already safe against shooting attacks due to their small size, their high armour, and hard target.

      I may like this a little more if they were FoI 1 and if they were waaaaay less powerful, so that I could play something like 4 of them while still being able to deploy an Infernal Engine.
      Indeed

      Im happy they were seldomly used because for all practical purposes it was wasted effort to shoot them. Not a very good design IMO

      Then again the only thing in the ID army that was a good target for shooting was the Engine. Fingers crossed they get a little more interesting now
    • Grimbold Blackhammer wrote:

      Is there a maximum we can put in one unit? If I put in two, do I deploy the dwarfs, then the first gunnery team, and then the last gunnery team essentially counting as three deployments?
      it has war platform so 1 per unit

      A War Platform with Mismatching Base can never join a unit, and only a single War Platform can be in the same unit unless specifically stated otherwise.
    • Jarec wrote:

      First I'd like to present my Table of Declining Industry, which is also my biggest concern with ID.

      Patch after patch the amount of war machines has gone down, and what I remember reading it was because some other buff happened somewhere else. Be it allowing two Engines or having extra effects on hits or just plain more strength.
      Most of these buffs are now reverted, yet the rippling effects on the amount of artillery still stay.
      I'm more bullish on the upgrade overall than you are (I think the number of things fixed this upgrade far outnumbers the number of things that were or remain broken), but I will 100% agree with this criticism. It's been a constant and oft-voiced frustration of mine, right back to Beta 1, that in an army that has, as one of its 'hats', "big, scary, mad-scientist war machines with copious amounts of fire and demonic infusions", the number of those things we can bring to the battlefield is being steadily reduced.

      And what's weird is that, if I'm understood the comments from one of the team members (don't remember who) correctly, this seems like it was done unintentionally, since apparently the intent of the FOI rule was to allow *more* heavy machinery than the slimbook did. And FOI applies to so many of our things, it really does feel like a hindrance. There's basically no point to taking a Prophet of Nezibkesh at that moment, because he'll have a maximum of two guns he can buff in a standard-sized list. Fires of Industry is, essentially, a 0-3 restriction on Gunnery Teams, Infernal Artillery, Infernal Engines, and Shooty Titans (and if you want to bring an Infernal Bastion, Prophet of Nezibkesh, and/or Vassal Slingshot, change that to 0-2). I can't think of a single other army that has restrictions that tight on its showcase units. We literally can't even bring all of our big, shiny units to the table because we would be at almost double the FOI limit.

      And I'm not even sure why this is the case. Are our heavy weapons really *that good* that they need to be that tightly controlled? Because it doesn't seem like it - at best, our artillery at the moment seems merely OK, with awful range but decent attack profiles. Dwarven Holds artillery is more damaging and longer range and they don't have anything even close to equivalent to FOI. Given that we are the most industrialized faction in the setting, having this many restrictions on our actual "industry" seems bizarre from a fluff perspective and the models themselves don't seem good enough to warrant it from a crunch perspective. If one of my hellcannons could blast apart half a unit each turn from a board length away, maybe I could see the point to tightly restricting them, but they don't have stats good enough to warrant that sort of control.


      Jarec wrote:

      Infernal Weapons still the worst weapons for most of the units who can wield them.
      And this as well. Please give them Parry back, it would make them so much more viable!
    • darkknight109 wrote:

      Jarec wrote:

      First I'd like to present my Table of Declining Industry, which is also my biggest concern with ID.

      Patch after patch the amount of war machines has gone down, and what I remember reading it was because some other buff happened somewhere else. Be it allowing two Engines or having extra effects on hits or just plain more strength.
      Most of these buffs are now reverted, yet the rippling effects on the amount of artillery still stay.
      I'm more bullish on the upgrade overall than you are (I think the number of things fixed this upgrade far outnumbers the number of things that were or remain broken), but I will 100% agree with this criticism. It's been a constant and oft-voiced frustration of mine, right back to Beta 1, that in an army that has, as one of its 'hats', "big, scary, mad-scientist war machines with copious amounts of fire and demonic infusions", the number of those things we can bring to the battlefield is being steadily reduced.
      And what's weird is that, if I'm understood the comments from one of the team members (don't remember who) correctly, this seems like it was done unintentionally, since apparently the intent of the FOI rule was to allow *more* heavy machinery than the slimbook did. And FOI applies to so many of our things, it really does feel like a hindrance. There's basically no point to taking a Prophet of Nezibkesh at that moment, because he'll have a maximum of two guns he can buff in a standard-sized list. Fires of Industry is, essentially, a 0-3 restriction on Gunnery Teams, Infernal Artillery, Infernal Engines, and Shooty Titans (and if you want to bring an Infernal Bastion, Prophet of Nezibkesh, and/or Vassal Slingshot, change that to 0-2). I can't think of a single other army that has restrictions that tight on its showcase units. We literally can't even bring all of our big, shiny units to the table because we would be at almost double the FOI limit.

      And I'm not even sure why this is the case. Are our heavy weapons really *that good* that they need to be that tightly controlled? Because it doesn't seem like it - at best, our artillery at the moment seems merely OK, with awful range but decent attack profiles. Dwarven Holds artillery is more damaging and longer range and they don't have anything even close to equivalent to FOI. Given that we are the most industrialized faction in the setting, having this many restrictions on our actual "industry" seems bizarre from a fluff perspective and the models themselves don't seem good enough to warrant it from a crunch perspective. If one of my hellcannons could blast apart half a unit each turn from a board length away, maybe I could see the point to tightly restricting them, but they don't have stats good enough to warrant that sort of control.


      Jarec wrote:

      Infernal Weapons still the worst weapons for most of the units who can wield them.
      And this as well. Please give them Parry back, it would make them so much more viable!
      Parry and Magical attacks! Would be good synegize with the new banner, and it worked wonderful vs a vampire ghost army

      was a cool strategi, to gain magical attacks on your core weapon
    • I'm not sure why people are so down on the gunnery teams.

      The unit you take with them isn't just a delivery system, it can have a role in its own right...

      In particular, flintlocks are an ideal pairing, since they fire in 3 ranks anyway. So you can eg take 17 flintlocks plus a gunnery team in 7x3 (or 20 for 8x3) and fire with all the flintlocks plus the artillery weapon. In the latter case, due to horde you don't even lose attacks.