Pinned 2.0 BH Beta Discussion Thread

This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

Our beta phase is finally over. Download The Ninth Age: Fantasy Battles, 2nd Edition now!

  • Herminard wrote:

    clorens wrote:

    I never played against him, but I know very well why it is the same list that I use and all the goats of my country
    don't doubt that he would tear you apart
    My Orcs played 2 variants of this list in the ETC - and I would be happy to face more. Tbh I dont think that its that strong.
    @Herminard What BH lists do you rate stronger? I tried a couple of things, but a similar list gives me best results so far. But on the other hand, I didn't try to many variations of all my approaches.

    For a while I tried 3 cyclops , but I could not make the list around them work.
  • teclis2000 wrote:

    Herminard wrote:

    clorens wrote:

    I never played against him, but I know very well why it is the same list that I use and all the goats of my country
    don't doubt that he would tear you apart
    My Orcs played 2 variants of this list in the ETC - and I would be happy to face more. Tbh I dont think that its that strong.
    @Herminard What BH lists do you rate stronger? I tried a couple of things, but a similar list gives me best results so far. But on the other hand, I didn't try to many variations of all my approaches.
    For a while I tried 3 cyclops , but I could not make the list around them work.

    I do think the tripple Cyclops with double giant has strong play if you bring enough chaff from core and big flyers are central to the meta.

    I rate the chariot star if the game becomes even less focused with heavy ranged threats. Soren played an OnG variant for Denmark - and I rate his capability to read the meta (he scored 79 with it). Ours is no weaker.

    I rate both the piglist and minotaurlist if grinding is on the menu (but again you need enough chaff to set up situations properly), but they fall flat of their stomach against heavy flyer backline threats and avoidance builds.

    I do ofc rate Caals mixed arms and lots of tools - it is a good all comers. I think people have figured out how to counter it by now though. For ESC it was clearly very strong (I actually think the balance is often more fair in teams than in singles).

    I also rate the centaur pickoff list as a good all comers - and especially if DL and Elves make it back to the top of the food chain.
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.
  • clorens wrote:

    who cries, what happens is that you are very illusive if you think that we will not raise the spears and shield minotaurs

    You did not answer - do you play Beast Herds? If so - what type of Beast Herds would you _like_ to play?
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.
  • Like what?
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.
  • clorens wrote:

    who cries, what happens is that you are very illusive if you think that we will not raise the spears and shield minotaurs
    The points in BH are very finely balanced, if you increase mongrels too much you will lose them as a pick altogether. Clearly they are better than most picks at the minute, but they are not unbeatable, and a lot of armies have very good counters to them.

    I would look at WHY people are picking them.

    1) Cheaper than other picks in core
    2) Smaller footprint than other picks in core
    3) Spears
    4) Banner

    Why would you pick wildhorns over mongrels?

    1) Tougher
    2) Better WS
    3) More attacks (PW)

    So I think before you throw the baby out with the bat water, you should make a smallish adjustment down to take into account that slightly cheaper wildhorns aren't going to break the game, as mongrels aren't game breaking as is.

    In relation to minotaurs, shields are in a fine place at the minute, but one of the reasons they are taken is because PW are too expensive on a T4, 3W, 6+ model. I was one of the first to realise that a 5+ save (on a big enough unit) pretty much equates to the same number of attacks if you take into account the saved wounds from small arms fire. The downside to shields is that you have a low LD frenzy unit that may get flanked, lose the benefit of parry, and still not be able to put out the attacks back then.

    clorens wrote:

    big block of wildhorns, centaurs, briar beast, a lot of ambush, blocks longhorns, giants, (I miss them when they ambush, I don't know why they were taken away), pigs ...

    All of that is very playable at the minute, some more expensive thank I would like.

    I agree maybe pigs could have something to look at, maybe hatred on first turn or something. (with appropriate price increase?)
  • Drunk pigs!!

    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.
  • demgear wrote:

    clorens wrote:

    who cries, what happens is that you are very illusive if you think that we will not raise the spears and shield minotaurs
    The points in BH are very finely balanced, if you increase mongrels too much you will lose them as a pick altogether. Clearly they are better than most picks at the minute, but they are not unbeatable, and a lot of armies have very good counters to them.
    I would look at WHY people are picking them.

    1) Cheaper than other picks in core
    2) Smaller footprint than other picks in core
    3) Spears
    4) Banner

    Why would you pick wildhorns over mongrels?

    1) Tougher
    2) Better WS
    3) More attacks (PW)

    So I think before you throw the baby out with the bat water, you should make a smallish adjustment down to take into account that slightly cheaper wildhorns aren't going to break the game, as mongrels aren't game breaking as is.

    In relation to minotaurs, shields are in a fine place at the minute, but one of the reasons they are taken is because PW are too expensive on a T4, 3W, 6+ model. I was one of the first to realise that a 5+ save (on a big enough unit) pretty much equates to the same number of attacks if you take into account the saved wounds from small arms fire. The downside to shields is that you have a low LD frenzy unit that may get flanked, lose the benefit of parry, and still not be able to put out the attacks back then.

    clorens wrote:

    big block of wildhorns, centaurs, briar beast, a lot of ambush, blocks longhorns, giants, (I miss them when they ambush, I don't know why they were taken away), pigs ...
    All of that is very playable at the minute, some more expensive thank I would like.

    I agree maybe pigs could have something to look at, maybe hatred on first turn or something. (with appropriate price increase?)
    It's not me that you have to convince
  • On my side, I have tested many things : Many ambush, Chariot Army, Monster army, "Caal's list", triple cyclop etc. I have never found something as stable as my Empire (2nd army).

    @clorens should be repetitive in his posts (and not as elegant as expected, but hey ! he is just a goat :D ) , but I think he have some reasons to be.

    My sentiment with the current version of the book, is that what make the essence of beast herds has been forgotten or sacrified on the altar of uniformisation (Ambush, not as a rule but as concept, Totems, Wilderness).
    What is also disturbing me is the all or nothing tendency of the army, but I am probably not the best player : Each army choice seems to have been created to be the nemesis of something, but is awfull against the rest. No real polyvalence...

    Note : I also get best results with a "Caal list" than the others. Perhaps because I only play non tournaments single games, you know, the "garage" player. Which seems logic for an all comers army such Caal's one.
  • Kaitin wrote:

    demgear wrote:

    I would look at WHY people are picking them.

    1) Cheaper than other picks in core
    2) Smaller footprint than other picks in core
    3) Spears
    4) Banner
    5) You can put mino warlord in freely
    6) You don't need to put beastlord anywhere

    Why would you pick wildhorns over mongrels?

    1) Tougher
    2) Better WS
    3) More attacks (PW) same number of attacks as mongrels with spears cause Spears fight in extra rank

  • Tier list that will play a role in the points adjustment, announced in the news section:

    Top tier: UD, VS
    High Tier: WDG, VC, OK, BH, DL
    Mid Tier: KoE, OnG
    Low Tier: DE, DH, EoS, SA SE, ID
    Bottom tier: HE

    I definitely expected BH to be in the low-tier area, mid at best so this is definitely a surprise. More importantly, this means that armies identified as lower tier will get a power boost compared to BH: all elves, dwarves, orcs... AFAIC playing vs. elves (especially HE!) felt like an uphill battle already, it'll seemingly become worse with BH getting nerfed and them getting buffed.
    Let's see how this eventually turns out. Until then I'll just be painting EoS, just in case.
  • Exalted Champion wrote:

    This tier list is definetly a surprise.

    I would see BH as mid tier at best.

    But wouldnt even agree that HBE is bottom tier. EoS and ID as low tier seems also very weird.
    ID did absolutely appallingly at ETC (normally a place they do well due to the match system). In fact they did so badly this year, that the statistics showed that they were more underpowered, than UD were overpowered. With UD averaging about 12 points a game, compared to most armies averaging 11-9 points per game, but ID were sitting at an average 7.

    They did worse than HBE, and I am quite surprised that HBE are actually lower than they are.

    Lord of the Hobby

    The Great Horde of Chaos <-My hobby blog Tyranno's Ride into the Steppes <-My Makhar hobby/army-list blog
  • Exalted Champion wrote:

    This tier list is definetly a surprise.

    I would see BH as mid tier at best.

    But wouldnt even agree that HBE is bottom tier. EoS and ID as low tier seems also very weird.
    The thing is that there will be a vast array of beliefs amongst the totality of the player base.
    They cannot all be right.
    This is the big problem that the project faces: every individual thinks their own tiers/view/beliefs are justified, but the situation logically is that most of them are wrong.

    It is possible that your tiers are actually right and the project's are wrong.
    It is possible you are both wrong.

    That is why I think it is sensible for the project to adopt a basically data driven approach, because otherwise things will forever be "he says she says".
    And it is important for the community to accept this, and each individual to accept that their own tiers might be wrong.

    I personally wouldn't have put ID as anything less than mid-tier. But then my personal tiers are no less fallible than anyone elses :)
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
  • Keep in mind too that it doesnt even mean that higher tiers will only get nerfs or lower tiers only buffs.

    Just that the buffs will be more significant and nerfs less so for lower tier armies, and vice versa for higher tier armies.

    (If I understood the news post correctly)
    Probably the Least Useless Player in the World - International Herminard Poll 2018
  • Idum wrote:

    Tier list that will play a role in the points adjustment, announced in the news section:

    Top tier: UD, VS
    High Tier: WDG, VC, OK, BH, DL
    Mid Tier: KoE, OnG
    Low Tier: DE, DH, EoS, SA SE, ID
    Bottom tier: HE

    I definitely expected BH to be in the low-tier area, mid at best so this is definitely a surprise. More importantly, this means that armies identified as lower tier will get a power boost compared to BH: all elves, dwarves, orcs... AFAIC playing vs. elves (especially HE!) felt like an uphill battle already, it'll seemingly become worse with BH getting nerfed and them getting buffed.
    Let's see how this eventually turns out. Until then I'll just be painting EoS, just in case.
    Same here
    Exactly the same here. I am not motivated anymore in playing BH. I have played them during 1.5 years, and I count my success on one hand.
    I switched to Eos again : I definitively feel them more stable than BH
    Kind of divorce with the team orientation...