Pinned 2.0 BH Beta Discussion Thread

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  • Kolata wrote:

    Guys, please be realistic. Before you write anything you must consider facts:



    2. There will be no design changes.

    So all ridiculous wishlists make no sense.
    Ok, so what you say is that Pendulum of the VS will always be Stubborn by itself and not bodyguard combined with Plague Brotherhood?
    That sort of ridiculous whishlists and design changes?

    By the way, this whole project shouldn't be with options set in stone and set in stone more than a while back. You can toss and turn the points around but some more significant changes just need to be made.
    Longhorns have troubles from the very beginning. Cyclops, Jabber... Also.
    :BH: :DL:
  • Hruggek wrote:

    Kolata wrote:

    Guys, please be realistic. Before you write anything you must consider facts:



    2. There will be no design changes.

    So all ridiculous wishlists make no sense.
    Ok, so what you say is that Pendulum of the VS will always be Stubborn by itself and not bodyguard combined with Plague Brotherhood?That sort of ridiculous whishlists and design changes?

    By the way, this whole project shouldn't be with options set in stone and set in stone more than a while back. You can toss and turn the points around but some more significant changes just need to be made.
    Longhorns have troubles from the very beginning. Cyclops, Jabber... Also.
    when FAB of Beast Heard will be done, they will get the love they deserve.
    Untill then price are the only way to touch them

    Playtester

    DL-Comunity Support

    Master of the Coins

  • IoRi78 wrote:

    Hruggek wrote:

    Kolata wrote:

    Guys, please be realistic. Before you write anything you must consider facts:



    2. There will be no design changes.

    So all ridiculous wishlists make no sense.
    Ok, so what you say is that Pendulum of the VS will always be Stubborn by itself and not bodyguard combined with Plague Brotherhood?That sort of ridiculous whishlists and design changes?
    By the way, this whole project shouldn't be with options set in stone and set in stone more than a while back. You can toss and turn the points around but some more significant changes just need to be made.
    Longhorns have troubles from the very beginning. Cyclops, Jabber... Also.
    when FAB of Beast Heard will be done, they will get the love they deserve.Untill then price are the only way to touch them
    Whait.. What?!?
    So you are aware of the problem and that some things aren't used/don't work but you'll proceed to the final product just to exchange it later? ?(
    :BH: :DL:
  • @Hruggek We are talking about THIS patch. Main assumption of this patch its that we do only price changes for better overall balance (with exception of UD Hereditary and Duke Nukem - I don't think there were any other design changes, right?).
    Team Belgium ETC 2006 O&G & 2007 Skaven
    Team Canada ETC 2010 & 2012 O&G
    My Beast Herd Gallery
    My O&G Gallery
  • Kolata wrote:

    For example - Eye of Dominance. Very strong, but situational item. I'm ok with point increase. However 50 pts is imo too much. Why?
    It kills the a/m build with Bluffers Hide (which costed 90, now costs 110). This is not a broken build, it's okish and is used. It would be enough to increase the price to 40 pts to make this combo viable, but disable the Daemon Killer Doombull mentioned on several forums: Aaghor Flayed Hide (100) + Blessed Insciptions (65) + Eye of Dominance. It was 195, with 40 pts it would be 205, so combo broken.
    Sorry, but such message me angry : This is typically a problem because the game is team oriented.
    In these beautiful games, you can plan to use such item to pulverise any daemon army because you can rely on pairing
    In a single tournament, you will not plan to get full effect of this object because you will have 1 chance on 16 to face a daemon army
    This is the same for other choices. BH are a competitive army ? perhaps in your team tournaments, but in single game, it is all or nothing army.
    Do we need to talk again of Gortachs? against any army with small arms fire or magic, paying 500 points for a thing which die in one turn is just a joke.

    Hruggek wrote:

    By the way, this whole project shouldn't be with options set in stone and set in stone more than a while back. You can toss and turn the points around but some more significant changes just need to be made.Longhorns have troubles from the very beginning. Cyclops, Jabber... Also.
    Cannot agree more on this. We talk since months of what is not working. Nothing , Nothing, have been changed to address these problems. You just kill what is working with an awfull blindness

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Mirdhynn ().

  • Kolata wrote:

    @Hruggek We are talking about THIS patch. Main assumption of this patch its that we do only price changes for better overall balance (with exception of UD Hereditary and Duke Nukem - I don't think there were any other design changes, right?).
    I know that THIS patch can't be re-patched and that all the problems stated are for future patches.
    The question is - how many point patches must there be in order for the unit to receive a rules update?

    I mean - you can update let's say Longhorns every several months with "base unit gests +/- points, aditional models get +/- points" and that won't make them any more special (or wouldn't make them special enough) in the special infantry of the 9th Age category.
    :BH: :DL:
  • In my opinion...

    As a lot of people knows... we as a mele army have trash magical weapons that no one uses

    only few choices of pjs and of course only 1 mount, you cant nerf things that we dont have more choices to use

    about points well. i think BH needs a rework on many things but maybe this will be come later when reach gold edition

    about points well...:

    beast axe cheaper and more weapon enchants plz..

    Mino warlord about 30 points less (yes sounds a lot but hey 490 its a joke)
    Ciclps -> well... emm.... they are... ciclops... maybe move and shoot without penalty (their catapult range is the smaller in warhammer) or at least 15-20 points less
    giant -> same price or 10 more but have primal insticnt
    jabber -> needs a buf in stats... 4 attacks, 4 wounds, a mino can destroy this ****xD but maybe 20 points less

    +1F standard-> ok 60 points but duration 1 turn not 1 round...this is stupid because only can get wildhorns and ungors....basic units with s3

    mongrels -> the same
    wildhorns -> -1ap for horns could be right, or maybe weapons cost 1 less point
    longhorns -> some points less...

    centaurs -> same points... what about +1 armor? its ridiculous 6+ on a chivalry
    razorgor-> with ini2 lid6, no music and without primal instinct....
    gortach -> maybe 4+amor save or something that fking arrows dont kill them so easily or at least 20 points less
    briar beast---> not sure, at this moment i will not put any of this in any army
  • @Mirdhynn
    I'm sorry, but this is just your opinion that BH suck on single events. Data from tournaments show something else, right @Just_Flo ?

    As to mentioned 3 units:

    Cyclops - they are very good for this price in my opinion
    Jabber - 320 looks interesting, worth testing
    Longhorns - big units have 3 problems:
    1. Most of all are horribly overpriced!!! (at least 2ppm for extra models)
    2. Our heroes on foot are mediocre at best.
    3. In this section Minotaurs are way better.
    Team Belgium ETC 2006 O&G & 2007 Skaven
    Team Canada ETC 2010 & 2012 O&G
    My Beast Herd Gallery
    My O&G Gallery
  • Kolata wrote:

    @Mirdhynn
    I'm sorry, but this is just your opinion that BH suck on single events. Data from tournaments show something else, right @Just_Flo ?
    I am just basing on my experience, you are right.
    Forgive me, but even at a high level (Some feedbacks on BH from french inter regional championship) some things seems to be not as nice as you tell.
  • Ironrock wrote:

    Let me know what the most important thing you believe would be.
    I'll quote Kolata as I think this was spot on, especially the third bullet point. I really would like to play and test a bigger unit of longhorns and tried to make a list with them but even at 24 models which I was thinking the price seems crazy.

    Kolata wrote:

    Longhorns - big units have 3 problems:

    1. Most of all are horribly overpriced!!! (at least 2ppm for extra models)
    2. Our heroes on foot are mediocre at best.
    3. In this section Minotaurs are way better
    :BH: :SA: :VS:
  • Kolata wrote:



    Cyclops - they are very good for this price in my opinion
    Jabber - 320 looks interesting, worth testing
    Longhorns - big units have 3 problems:
    1. Most of all are horribly overpriced!!! (at least 2ppm for extra models)
    2. Our heroes on foot are mediocre at best.
    3. In this section Minotaurs are way better.
    Ok, this has been a known fact for years now and what do we get after yet another points reduction update - 10 points reduction on the base unit! :D :D
    I mean, I don't know if it's more appropriate to laugh or to cry. You KNOW the problem and you do nothing.

    Someone can make some tear dropping post about the whole project of the 9th Age, about how much time it takes, how much the army teams, the data analysts, the whatnots and the whocares work and then, with this common knowledge, the problem still isn't solved on the points adjustment base. How many more data one needs to prove themselves that the gap of 35% between the first 10 and subsequent models isn't right. What kind of data did it use to come to the conclusion after the question - "Hmm, the Longhorns aren't used in big units. What to do, what to do, to make them more appealing to the Beast players... Hmmm... What do do indeed...? I know, we'll drop the base cost of the fisrt 10 and leave the rest as they were, that should make them more close of a choice to the Minotaurs!"
    :BH: :DL:
  • Thanks for the feedback all, I have a running list of requests combined looks something like the below for the moment, roughly in priority order (based on number of mentions);

    Points Change Feedback;
    • Wildhorn Herd - Free weapon choice / -1 pt to weapon choices
    • Cyclops - 10 pts
    • Longhorn Herd - 1 / -2 pts per additional model
    • Eye of Dominance - Drop back to 30 pts
    • Inscribing Burin - Drop 5 pts
    • Banner of Wild Herd - Drop back to 50 (Some think drop to 40 given the one turn use )
    • Jabba - 20 pts
    • Beast Lords & Cheiftains on foot - 10 points (increase +5 to the chariot mounts)
    • Dark Rain - Drop 10 pts
    • Hawthorne Curse - Drop 10 pts





    Plus bigger rules changes such as;
    • Jabba - Fix (Stats/rules)
    • Cyclops - Fix (Accurate vs Channel or longer range)
    • Wildhorn Herd, increase min size and Ambush cost, small increase to unit cost
    • Giants - Gain pack tactics rule and access to a Beast Axe
    • Allow Beast Axe to gain any BH enchantments or make it a 'hand weapon'
    • Longhorn Herd - Bodyguard for General
    • H spell CV decrease / new H spell


    I'll mention the rules changes, but at this stage I think we need to look at the points stuff only.

    If you need something pushing up the priority list let me know, I'll give it another day or so then share back the feedback from the 21 sources and growing I've had so far.

    Cheers,
    For more from me : @Enchantedbytim on twitter.

    Milton Keynes, UK

    ETC 2020 - Scotland XX Player
    ETC 2019 - Scotland BH Player
    ETC 2018 - Scotland VC Player
    ETC 2017 - Scotland OK Player
  • The problem I see with this kind of feedback (Which is certainly better than no feedback at all!) is that it's everybody's informed guess more than anything else.

    How many of the players answering have actually tried the triple Cyclops? The only ones I know of is @Kolata and @Frederick and they have rocked the tournament circuit with them (even in singles, before anyone jumps to any conclusions).

    What about the double Jabberwock in a list designed to take advantage of the Discipline debuff? (What we'd call a Ld/Terror bomb list)
    And the list goes on.

    The only legitimate complaints I've read here are the following:
    - Wildhorns should probably be costed differently. Shields are the inferior choice compared to paired weapons due to the diminishing returns from magic augments (be it totems or Shamanism/Evocation spells) and from the banner of the Wild Herd. This should be reflected in points.

    - Longhorns are very competitively priced for the first 10 (my opponents are often astonished when I mention their price to them), but the extra models are a tad on the expensive side. The Great Weapon option is inferior to the Halberd option for various reasons (again, interaction with magic/totems and overall viability of semi-depleted units). I think if anything that the extra models with Great Weapons should be cheaper and the Halberds kept relatively stable.

    - Eye of Dominance: Previously I included the item without a second thought in a list, on the off chance I got to face a monster-heavy list (or daemons). At 50 points it becomes a real dilemma. I wouldn't go lower than 40, read 45, the item is worth its weight in gold in certain games.


    Now some more comments on the overall pricing:

    I think that the RTs approach was good: in builds that were too frequent they found the culprit and increased its points, while lowering the points of the base model/unit where needed. Examples are the Mongrels (they were ridiculously priced before given the capability of the unit. A better option for me would be to just ban the use of the Wildherd banner on them; an item that's perfectly fine or even expensive for a unit of 25x25mm wildhorns becomes very cheap when put on a unit of 20x20mm mongrels with FiER.

    So @Ironrock when you do report, take into account that this Beast Herd player is pretty much ok with the changes. ;)
  • I played with 2 Cyclops' in the ESC this year in Novi Sad and I have mixed feelings about them.
    It must have been the not so favourable opponents but I felt they lacked something and no - it was not the 3rd Cyclops. I can't justify the army building that NEEDS to spend almost 25% of the army on 18 wounds Res. 5 for the whole army to suddenly work. Maybe as a setup designed against Demons or Flying monsters - then yes but that is specific list building.

    On the other hand, if I had the two of them instead of Minotaurs and unit of Dogs on the tournament later, the two similar but different Dwarf armies would have been stomped and I'm sure I wouldn't have problem with Copters.
    :BH: :DL: