Pinned UD 2.0 Discussion Thread

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  • DanT wrote:

    (A) For project goals see EXB statements. I understand that the main goal of the update is to improve balance.
    Yes, I know it is.


    DanT wrote:

    (B) Change for change's sake: it has long been known that the goal was annual points updates, this isn't just something that got invented last week.
    yes, and if the project isn't capable of showing imbalance over a 1 year period than how can the project improve the balance? It can try, but if it can't even compare the balance of 1 year to the previous it's basically twisting knobs and hoping it lucks into something good. And yearly point updates are anathema to point A). If the project is truly capable of improving the balance, not just twisting knobs but improving balance, than it should take longer and longer to be able to prove that there is imbalance across books, not the same 1 year period that hasn't been sufficient for the DA team to do anything with for 2-3 years now, but a period of time that should take longer and longer and longer to actually determine that difference. But to actually seek balance like that wouldn't allow the yearly point tweaks that the European scene just can't seem to let go of, so the project seems to have committed to turning knobs once a year and calling it balancing, despite that period of time being insufficient for the DA team to actually measure balance.




    DanT wrote:

    And UD are distorting metas, not just tournaments but in local club metas (and I have much more sympathy for the latter than the former). I don't see how this can be change for change's sake. I personally do think UD are a problem. We can argue about exactly how much and in what way. I am happy to wait and see the data though.
    And yet meta's are also a thing that are heavily influenced by sociology, and tend to change and develop over time. There is always going to be something that is popular that the rest of the meta is going to begin to conform around until the meta pushes that thing out. It's the way this game progresses when people stop constantly stepping in to tweak things.



    DanT wrote:

    (C) Just_flo works really really hard, with very little help. I am sure at least some of the data analysis will be made public when someone has chance to look into it and it isn't buried under a bunch of other priorities. Just_flo has asked for more help on more than one occasion. Getting upset cos no-one has had chance to do this, when the project hasn't even finished the update it is being used for, does not come under the "reasonable" label in my book.
    I know how much work DA team has, I was on it. I also know it kept shrinking and shrinking and shrinking. But at this point the project has already released a tier system it claimed used the very tournament data Just_flo is working on.

    So either

    A) the tournament data has been compiled and was subsequently used by the RT to create the tier list, in which case I completely disagree with your assertion that it is unreasonable to ask to see the data report that the project used to create the tier list, and which has no further purpose in the update underway. The tier list is already made,and the impact of every army on each tier list has been decided. So there isn't really any reason that information can't be shared with the public. Particularly, after the project released it's announcement of the tier list based in part on said report as part of a PR release. If you are going to make a claim, provide the evidence to support it.

    or

    B) the DA team isn't finished with it's analysis, in which case sure, asking them to release the data would be unreasonable. But I would also point out that it also means it is unreasonable for the project to be blazing ahead with it's update when the only objective measure its using hasn't been completed yet.

    And I feel for Just_Flo, he is doing a ton of work, and compiling a ton of data, that is mostly going wasted because the project won't actually let the game stay stable long enough for his work to bear fruits. There is a reason the DA kept shrinking, it's because the project wanted the tournament data to claim it was using it to balance the game, but wasn't willing to slow down enough for the DA to show anything. So you had a team who did a whole ton of work and compiling data, and harassing tournaments for no gain.

    The first data report was exactly that, it reported the data, pointed out trends, pointed out things to keep in mind when interpretting it. The last one I saw was here is data, done.

    DanT wrote:

    The game is in a good place. I am really glad it exists and that people are working on it.
    If the game is in a good place, then why does the project have to keep mucking with it? It could easily focus on the LAB instead of sidetracking the decision makers, and who knows who else for 2-3 months making point changes that is already in a good place, already is far more balanced than it or it's predecessor has been,




    DanT wrote:

    You are also enjoying it right?
    less and less as my community keeps dwindling because of the projects incessant need to make changes for the hell of it. Less and less as projects I start have to be sidelined because the army and theme I started working on isn't a legal list anymore, and as I watch people drop out of the hobby because they make a themed list, buy it start painting it and have this project make there list illegal before they even finish it.

    Based on the UD changes, I fully expect to be unable to play the VS list you created in 2 months, which means my current work on painting it is going to be even more wasted time. I don't have tons of free time to paint, and I would love to be in your meta where your simple but nice looking ID wouldn't be taking a painting penalty in events. But neither are the case. For as imbalanced as 8th was, it at least had the saving grace that you knew you could start a project that might span a year or two and not have it invalidated by the time you finished.



    Cicciuz wrote:

    well the change is that now the standard list is c.400 points more expensive than before, with some combo not allowed anymore...
    and don't forget they somehow managed to make the internal balance even worse...
    “You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyways.” -Lan Mandragoran, EotW


    Dovie’andi se tovya sagain.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Nicreap ().

  • I did severly times in the past State that the report for the public will be release shortly after the update completly hit.

    Why after and not before?

    Well since Nicereap was in DA the name changed to TA and a lot more responsibilities were added.

    So just today a first Version of special item usage data was handed over to RT.

    The last armylist analysis for an army has been finished last week.

    Now I have still to do some errorchecks...


    So why not release an uncommented Version?

    Well, the number of people who understand it and the raw data without explanation is a small fracture of those who will understand it with an explanation.

    Also as the Post WTC and ETC threads early show quite some strange misunderstandings will happen which will need to be corrected.

    So publishing before all additonal work for the update is done leads either to delayes while we explain or to misunderstandings.

    Also there are questions beides Overalls performance people asked which we would like to answer in that report, too.

    Oh and graphics...

    Tldr: The performance data collection and Evaluation for the update has been done. The report will happen.
    The inpdepth detail explanations will be prepared when the work for the update is done.

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  • Just_Flo wrote:

    I did severly times in the past State that the report for the public will be release shortly after the update completly hit.
    It didn't seem to be in an announcement, and I don't stalk you on the thread, so I wasn't aware of that.



    Just_Flo wrote:

    Tldr: The performance data collection and Evaluation for the update has been done. The report will happen.
    The inpdepth detail explanations will be prepared when the work for the update is done.

    So to be clear, the explanations weren't done before you handed over the reports? While the most recent group of people who make decisions may be different, in the past the number of people in the project who could read raw statistical data was also a small fraction. So the write up and those graphics were used just as much for the people who were suppossed to be using the data in their assessment as it was the general public.

    If you didn't explain the data or make graphics to make the report into a readable format for the internal staff, then ya, no point in releasing it, and you really must be extremely understaffed if that much has been cut out of the process.
    “You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyways.” -Lan Mandragoran, EotW


    Dovie’andi se tovya sagain.
  • @Nicreap

    This discussion is very sprawling.
    I am not going to respond to all the branches, because I think that most of them are irrelevant to the original discussion.

    I never said no-one should provide constructive criticism, or that every decision the project makes is perfect; I objected to unreasonable comments about the staff and project decisions. Particularly those making (distorted) historical comments, and making no effort to understand the significant pros and cons of the different sides to most decisions.

    I see nothing in anything you have said that justifies such comments.


    Some of your assumptions, presumptions, and implications are definitely not in the "reasonable" camp in my book.
    And you are repeatedly guessing at gaps in your knowledge, rather than remaining agnostic until you have the knowledge. In nearly every case this guess is to the detriment of the project; also not reasonable in my book.

    A simple example is your comments about the ability of RT to understand what just_flo has given them.
    I can assure you that
    (A) During the time I was involved, just_flo was on hand to answer questions and comments from RT (which is much more efficient than him writing a big explanation and then not interacting with RT)
    (B) At least one of current RT is more qualified and able than you when it comes to raw statistical data :)


    I am afraid that your comments don't come across well to me, they feel like someone who is lashing out because they don't like something, rather than someone providing useful, well thought-through and helpful comments.

    I am sure that you could make some of your points in a much more reasonable, supportive and less aggressive manner.
    And I can assure you that making them this way is more likely to get them listened to.
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

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  • DanT wrote:

    Part of the reason I left the staff was because of these double standards amongst the staff and community. Literally, whatever the project does, it gets flak from a significant amount of the community, often insinuating, or outright stating, that the project is incompetent and has no idea what it is doing, or even in some cases that it is maliciously damaging certain armies in favour of others.
    Because, you know, staff are egoistic and have hidden agendas. Wait, no, those agendas aren't hidden, since everyone knows that they only want to improve their own army to get a better win ratio.

    Nicreap wrote:

    But to answer your question, the project needs to actually commit to what portion of the community it is trying to serve.
    The reasonable one? :P

    Nicreap wrote:

    So there isn't really any reason that information can't be shared with the public
    Volunteer time maybe? Presenting raw data would be foolish as you stated. Presenting data that most people can interpret is... I would say a chimera (you'll get flak anyway), but let's go for time-consuming.

    Nicreap wrote:

    the projects incessant need to make changes for the hell of it
    Do you mean the 12 updates that happened since last year? I must have missed a few of them, I admit.
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  • Alright, that's enough.

    If you want your concerns about the project and how it is doing things to be relayed, PM me and I will relay the information to where it needs to go. If you want to discuss these things with other forum users, make a private conversation. In any case, keep it out of the UD discussion thread. Going forward I will delete these sort of replies in this thread. Speculate about the update, discuss what you think it will mean for our army, but do not makes this a hate thread towards each other, staff or the project.
    :UD: :WDG: :DE:
  • Im crossing my collars in hope that the update will let me play a boneshackle Battle Line.

    If at all possible, it would also be awesome if it was fairly light on characters.

    You recall the bone wall you once played against me @Palmu @Nicreap?

    Im hoping for similar, but with more combat knuckles from core.

    I think that alternatively I will attempt the foot pharao with entourage magic light build.

    Less stoked about that, but its deffo in there for a build to test out.
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when they fall in malicious ways.
  • IHDarklord wrote:

    To make a boneshackle line viable, we will need to hope for increased healing on them :).

    That will mainly benefit a hyperbrick. Count me not interested.
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when they fall in malicious ways.
  • IHDarklord wrote:

    You are correct, I kinda had the need for something controversial ;).

    I feel like this year, we won't see much change about UD. Except pricecosts everywhere ( and only up).

    Then I will wait. Other armies will probably have opportunities for whacko lists. And if they dont - I can live with loss streaks.
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when they fall in malicious ways.
  • New

    Herminard wrote:

    You recall the bone wall you once played against me @Palmu @Nicreap?
    I can't recall if I ever played mine against you, but I miss those lists.

    Can't have many regrets about the loss, since I was a major proponent in causing them to disappear, but I do regret that choice.

    Thankfully no mistake is eternal in this game and can always be recovered from with time.
    Life is hard when you're a skeleton
  • New

    I would love to see something that tones the healing of the constructs down specifically.
    Like example;
    Non-standard models can't be healed more than twice per magic phase.
    or
    Spells have their casting value increased by 2 when healing non-standard models after the first time each magic phase.
    or
    Cut the Resurrection value of them in half?
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  • New

    Palmu wrote:

    Herminard wrote:

    You recall the bone wall you once played against me @Palmu @Nicreap?
    I can't recall if I ever played mine against you, but I miss those lists.
    Can't have many regrets about the loss, since I was a major proponent in causing them to disappear, but I do regret that choice.

    Thankfully no mistake is eternal in this game and can always be recovered from with time.

    I recall you ran it both against my TVI and against my HBE flying circus - or do I recall wrong?

    I agree that one of the prime qualities of this game now - is that whatever flaws it may have - they are left to the hivemind of the community to fix, and not the economical bottom line of the boardroom meetings.

    I know you acted with honest intent and love for the nerds - keep doing that and improvements will grow in your trail.
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when they fall in malicious ways.
  • New

    What I really really hope is that some of the underused entries are improved and not just the top performers nerfed.
    The book is great and works as one would expect UD should work, bt there are some entries in the book that see to no use.

    Elements such as big units of skeletons, skeleton cavalry, scarabs x2, stalkers and Dread Sphinx have not been good for a long time, being used in 0-4% of lists, so I don't expect that improving them a bit would make the army stronger.

    There are also many entries without models that desperately need a buff to be viable, such as barrow legion, book of the dead and Sekthem Scepter. Most of these have virtually not been used in almost two years, so they definitely need something to make them average.

    I hope after the patch we have more variety in the UD lists :)
  • New

    IHDarklord wrote:

    To make a boneshackle line viable, we will need to hope for increased healing on them :).
    As an old healer friend said on MMO : You can have the bigger heal you can imagine, you can't heal a one-shot.
    And due to the poor quality of our bonies, we crumble easily so an unit being OS is thinkable with amount of Lightning Reflexes, orders, strengh bonus, Favours... etc.
  • New

    setepenmentou wrote:

    IHDarklord wrote:

    To make a boneshackle line viable, we will need to hope for increased healing on them :).
    As an old healer friend said on MMO : You can have the bigger heal you can imagine, you can't heal a one-shot.And due to the poor quality of our bonies, we crumble easily so an unit being OS is thinkable with amount of Lightning Reflexes, orders, strengh bonus, Favours... etc.

    I often throw my opponents a juicy bone for them to overextend into.
    The notion that the onesided dismantlement of yer foes is the more enjoyable game is to me quite bizarre.
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when they fall in malicious ways.
  • New

    Folomo wrote:

    Elements such as big units of skeletons, skeleton cavalry, scarabs x2, stalkers and Dread Sphinx have not been good for a long time, being used in 0-4% of lists, so I don't expect that improving them a bit would make the army stronger.

    There are also many entries without models that desperately need a buff to be viable, such as barrow legion
    I must admit that I have being using Barrow Legion quite a bit lately.

    I have been surprised with the effect of putting Full Lances on both the Chariots and the Skellie Cav. If the Cav are used in blocks of 18 with a rending banner, deployed in 3 ranks, they are not as bad as people make out. Strength 5 AP 3 on the charge with standard and ranks is not to be sniffed at, add on undying will so WS 5 does make them fairly handy.

    Not claiming that they are world beaters ( not even close ) but they do have their uses.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by wombat ().

  • New

    wombat wrote:

    Folomo wrote:

    Elements such as big units of skeletons, skeleton cavalry, scarabs x2, stalkers and Dread Sphinx have not been good for a long time, being used in 0-4% of lists, so I don't expect that improving them a bit would make the army stronger.

    There are also many entries without models that desperately need a buff to be viable, such as barrow legion
    I must admit that I have being using Barrow Legion quite a bit lately.
    I have been surprised with the effect of putting Full Lances on both the Chariots and the Skellie Cav. If the Cav are used in blocks of 18 with a rending banner, deployed in 3 ranks, they are not as bad as people make out. Strength 5 AP 3 on the charge with standard and ranks is not to be sniffed at, add on undying will so WS 5 does make them fairly handy.

    Not claiming that they are world beaters ( not even close ) but they do have their uses.
    the problem is for 1/2 the points other armys can make just as effective units, if not hands down better.