2.0 Sylvan Elf Hereditary Spell discussion / Suggestions

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  • 2.0 Sylvan Elf Hereditary Spell discussion / Suggestions

    Heya Verdant Elves!

    This post is for discussion / suggestions about the Sylvan Elf Hereditary spell.

    We will be able to provide some feedback about the most pressing Beta 2.0 issues around the middle of January, and this one seems to be generating a lot of discussion in other threads about other things.

    So have at it here!

    The current form of the rule is this:

    Screenshot 2017-12-24 21.49.54.png

    Is it good? Could it be better? If so how?

    Give us your best non overpowered suggestions! If we can get one that's not OP and everyone likes, we can perhaps ask some questions about it further up. Also keep in mind it is my presumption a modification of the current spell would be more platable than a completly new concept, though that is an assumption. Also, there's no guarantee the spell will change at all. People just seem to like to talk about it right now soo... If there's a bunch of great solutions, we might do a poll or something.

    Also DJ is currently preparing a method of feedback on a wider range of issues, so this might go into that oo.

    Have at it!

    Data Analysis

  • Starting with my favoured idea to solve the aegis 5+ problem:


    Needs an adjustment to be worth using with forest spirits
    (e.g. +2 aegis max 4+ instead of aegis 5+, maybe just 8" movement 24" range for unboosted version and boosted version adds the aegis.)
    >6" move would allow to have a forest right in front of a unit and move both (forest 6", unit e.g. 8" to enter the forest)

    Idea:
    Mist Walker
    replicable

    (4+) {9+}
    Range 24"
    Augment
    Lasts one Turn

    The target may perform a 8″ Magical Move and gains Fly during this move. {The target gains Aegis (+2) against Ranged Attacks to a maximum of 4+}


    So we would have a cheap unboosted only movement version with also 24" range which is the same as Raven's Wing but no Sweeping Attack, instead it's replicable. Having it at least twice could ensure to getting it cast on a unit in a critical situaion.
    And we would have the boosted version granting an appropriate protection also for forest spirits (4+ instead of 5+) and even for blade dancers and wild huntsmen (4+ instead of 6+). E.g. it's worth improving the 5+ aegis to a 4+ aegis on a Treefather when the opponent has warmachines. But also against nasty poison blowpipes etc.

    IMO, this change would even make the Treefather Patriarch and the Dryad Matriarch get back into play.

    Quick Starter Team

    Playtester


  • Thing is that the spell doesnt boost us in combat, which doesnt give direct incentive to use it in a combat list, because the movement spells are unreliable. You could argue that the shooting will help us to get healthy in to combat and that it also helps shooting list and thats true.

    If the aegis save was also usable in combat maybe that would make it a combat buff aswell. (Will the raise the cost much or?)

    In addition to the stackability and changes DJ describes.
  • I know it is more of a long shot but I am in favor of a complete re-write. I think focusing on a spell that both helps MSU builds, Encourages Close Combat and focuses on an aspect of our ASAW would be best.

    Hexes work best for MSU, survivability is an issue for us and avoiding hits is supposed to be a strength so a Hex that messes with hitting would work best. I would also argue the change to Magic Resistance makes it work like avoiding hits so a similar effect would fit. Giving the spell a short range encourages us to get close, but can be limiting, adding an effect to cast it out of a Forest would give great synergy with The Forest Follows and Tree Singing. Taking all that into account I personally would like to see something like this:

    Bewildering Mists:

    8+/11+

    12” Hex/6” Aura, Hex The range for this spell may be measured from the caster or any Forest Terrain feature on the table.

    Units affected by this spell must re-roll successful to hit rolls for attacks and suffers (-1) to their casting rolls, this penalty cannot combine with other sources to exceed a (-3) penalty.

    The effect is powerful and unique among hereditary spells, stays close to our strengths and gives us something I think any Sylvan Elf list would be able to take advantage of. Being able to cast an Aura through a Forest would be very evocative and would make opponents think twice about camping in our Forests!

    Now I did just rip this spell out of my personal homebrew document, which allows for mobile mages and other ways to create Forests, so it might not quite fit in our current Army Book iteration.

    Hope this helps,
    Cheers!
    A Sylvan Elves Homebrew Full Army Book - last updated June 1, 2019

    The post was edited 1 time, last by funkyfellow: Realized Main Rules already Contained a penalty limiting clause ().

  • We need to scrap the current spell (and magic moves in general) altogether. There are better spells in witchcraft, shamanism, druidism, AND cosmology for shooting protection. Why worry about a 5+ ward save when i can shut down the unit altogether with an aim skill debuff?

    @funkyfellow suggestion is perfect, though aura may be a bit too powerful. Otherwise i think we are done here haha.
  • @Hachiman Taro I think we should do it the other way around, we are all alienated enough to waste even more time so that RT or BLT just comes and laughs at us again and go for a “no”.

    Why don’t any red tags come and let us know what they think about our goal of becoming a guerrilla style army with movement strengths? Because honestly I think we’re just wasting our time greatly
  • Hachiman Taro wrote:

    One suggestion from another thread was a similar effect to the no 6 druidism spell (affected unit is considered to be in the forest). Some people seemed to like that.

    Snarkhunter wrote:

    In that case, I would love to see a modified version of Druidism 6:

    18" Universal {Augment} - All models in the target unit are considered to be within a Forest. {The target unit also gains Otherworldly (5+).}

    A bit longer range than the druidism spell (offset by the lack of attribute), and the boost helps the spell maintain parity between elves (who typically are not stubborn in the woods) and troops like tree spirits / blade dancers who will benefit less or not at all from otherworldly, but do gain stubborn. Also, otherworldly = magic attacks, which is situationaly useful as well.

    Versatile, should be useful in all game turns, doesn't really promote any specific play-style.

    I think "Primeval Echo" would be a cool name for it.

    EDIT: It would also add some synergy to the special equipment - combos well with Mist Walkers Mirror (you could jump from anywhere, still landing in a permanent forest terrain feature) and Predator's Pennant.
    Potential uses:

    - "Augment" an enemy unit to disrupt Steadfast plus cause them to take Dangerous Terrain (1) tests (synergy with The Forest Follows).
    - Buff our elves with Cover, enable Forest Walker, boosted to a 5++ Aegis / Magical Attacks
    - Buff our forest spirits with Cover, enable Forest Walker and Emboldening Boughs.
    - Buff anything behind the target unit with Cover (forests are Covering Terrain for any units inside/behind them).
    - Give stubborn to any of our light troops.
    - Synergy with Mist Walker's Mirror, Predator's Pennant, Impaling Roots.
    - Set's up future combo's with the potential return of: tree surfing, siphon in forests, forest based spellcasting (range from a forest, forest empored magic missiles).
    - Overlaps with Druidism 6, allowing you two chances to get the effect when it is needed.

    Some of these effects are very powerful ... especially disrupting steadfast or enabling emboldening boughs. When these effects matter most, the opponent will dispel this spell - which is why the overlap with Druidism 6 is a nice feature. Much harder to dispel them both.
  • funkyfellow wrote:

    Bewildering Mists:


    8+/11+

    12” Hex/6” Aura, Hex The range for this spell may be measured from the caster or any Forest Terrain feature on the table.

    Units affected by this spell must re-roll successful to hit rolls for attacks and suffers (-1) to their casting rolls, this penalty cannot combine with other sources to exceed a (-3) penalty.
    I like the core idea of this one. Forcing re-rolls to hit matches up well with SE army strengths. It is a very powerful effect - which has become increasingly rare. It also combo's nicely with the current version of Treesinging.

    The issues I see with the spell are:
    - There is a reason forced re-rolls to hit are becoming more rare ...
    - The aura boost will probably be considered too powerful on paper, but is likely too weak in play (since the opponent is more likely to dispel it, will simply stay spread out, move out of the effect, and magic resistance becomes more an issue with the aura). Also a 6" aura measured from a forest is very large - it includes the size of the forest.
    - Stacking the casting penalty to -3 is very unlikely to be approved.

    Maybe a variation of this would work:

    24" - Targets a forest feature - Friendly units within this Forest gain +1 to hit and +1 to cast, Enemy Units within this forest gain -1 to hit and -1 to cast. Boost it to work against out to 3 inches around the targeted Forest.

    This variation gets rid of the rerolls (more in line with current design intent - removes excess dice rolling), allows it to work as a buff or a hex, bypasses Magic Resistance, still combos with treesinging and keeps the +2/-2 to cast caps in place
  • Lowb wrote:

    @Hachiman Taro I think we should do it the other way around, we are all alienated enough to waste even more time so that RT or BLT just comes and laughs at us again and go for a “no”.

    Why don’t any red tags come and let us know what they think about our goal of becoming a guerrilla style army with movement strengths? Because honestly I think we’re just wasting our time greatly
    Your impression of how the BLT views this army/community is grossly incorrect. There has been a significant presence of BLT/RT/ExB members on this subforum lately ... I can assure you that the comments and criticisms of this book by the SE community is being heard.
  • @Snarkhunter because then you can't move any of those forests with tree singing and it lumps yet more situational effects into the book that we really must get away from. The Druidism-like 'cast from a terrain feature' is much less situational, a unit being near rather than in a wood is far more likely, especially as you can move woods around when units aren't in them.
  • It's not really a variation is it? Targeting inside a forest and 3" from it is very situational, the forest in the above post was only used for increasing range not limiting it. Yes re rolls to hit are pretty strong but not any stronger then some of the other effects. -1/+1 to hit is nice enough but needs to be measured from caster and have a larger range. Re rolls to hit and - 1 have a similar effect really, each is better in a certain case, with re rolls being better more often and combos with our spear. Forced re rolls to hit is definitely better and in line with current fluff, I would still take the DE one over re rolls.
  • Bogi wrote:

    It's not really a variation is it? Targeting inside a forest and 3" from it is very situational, the forest in the above post was only used for increasing range not limiting it. Yes re rolls to hit are pretty strong but not any stronger then some of the other effects. -1/+1 to hit is nice enough but needs to be measured from caster and have a larger range. Re rolls to hit and - 1 have a similar effect really, each is better in a certain case, with re rolls being better more often and combos with our spear. Forced re rolls to hit is definitely better and in line with current fluff, I would still take the DE one over re rolls.
    I think that Snarkhunter was trying to say that reroll effects in general have only a slim chance to be approved and not because of its potential strength. They are probably trying to speed up the game a bit.