Father Chaos/4Gods/7sins

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    • Squirrelloid wrote:

      Tzeentch is actually 'change',
      Well, In Tarot Death is Change.

      There was an option of not going for any gods at all. Leaving WoDG as deamon worshippers with hundreds of unnamed lesser and bigger powers based on strong human emotions (desires and fears). 7 Sins and 4 Horsemen together and much more. Such approach would allow to keep the Four as part of powers behind the Veil... and it would be more chaotic. Instead of Chosen introduce warriors that willfully accepted deamonic parasites into their minds and bodies. And go from there. But it would be probably too heavy metal.
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    • I guess a lot of this fluff disconnect will be resolved when more background and art are getting shown, giving players new visual cues for tying the look of their armies to the new pantheon.

      And as a sidenote, as a die hard tolkien enthusiast, i definitely categorize sauron, melkor and tolkien's orcs as stupid evil, or evil just to be evil. I much more enjoy his take on evil in the mythos of such characters as feanor and turin.
      "You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?" -Death
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    • Marcos24 wrote:

      @Kaitin Just because you don’t like the reason it’s just an excuse, got it.

      And ok, you don’t play the WDG army now, you know the fluff won’t change, so are you doing?
      I don't doubt that they had reasons. Everyone has some reasons for everything. But it doesn't matter, just the result. T9A crew dictates background it likes regardless of everyone else's desires, you get it or leave it, just like me.

      What I am doing? Just grumbling and wasting my time by guessing "what if". I hope you didn't think that suggestion about Thor was serious.

      And I am still interested in answer to my question, why it was decided to choose the background that messes design of armybook rules.
    • Kaitin wrote:

      Marcos24 wrote:

      @Kaitin Just because you don’t like the reason it’s just an excuse, got it.

      And ok, you don’t play the WDG army now, you know the fluff won’t change, so are you doing?
      I don't doubt that they had reasons. Everyone has some reasons for everything. But it doesn't matter, just the result. T9A crew dictates background it likes regardless of everyone else's desires, you get it or leave it, just like me.
      What I am doing? Just grumbling and wasting my time by guessing "what if". I hope you didn't think that suggestion about Thor was serious.

      And I am still interested in answer to my question, why it was decided to choose the background that messes design of armybook rules.

      Why the Seven Sins *originally*?

      Many reasons, none of which is sufficient by themself.

      Why stick with it? Still many reasons, but most importantly: Because at this stage, with thousands of man hours invested, cancelling the Seven Sins plan would probably destroy the project.


      If you are curious as to how it was decided to commit to the Seven Sins here are *some* reasons:

      - Strong Resonance ; they are well known

      - Unique ; we would not be copying another wargame not even a little bit

      - 7-and-Father-Chaos makes 8, which ties in with some background and modelling concerns.

      - The Seven Sins are inherently tempting. It is easy to see how someone could fall to them realistically, not just in fantasy "I love death!" silliness. Thus much scope for stories.

      - "Wrath" covers battle mad berserkers quite well, which is something that is popular.




      Something else it is probably important to note: having a background is always going to restrict what you can put in an AB, but many of the more contentious aspects of the WDG book were not background mandated, they were "background can go either way honestly".

      Sometimes you just have to pick one person or the other.

      Background Team

    • WhammeWhamme wrote:

      Why the Seven Sins *originally*?

      Many reasons, none of which is sufficient by themself.

      Why stick with it? Still many reasons, but most importantly: Because at this stage, with thousands of man hours invested, cancelling the Seven Sins plan would probably destroy the project.


      If you are curious as to how it was decided to commit to the Seven Sins here are *some* reasons:

      - Strong Resonance ; they are well known

      - Unique ; we would not be copying another wargame not even a little bit

      - 7-and-Father-Chaos makes 8, which ties in with some background and modelling concerns.

      - The Seven Sins are inherently tempting. It is easy to see how someone could fall to them realistically, not just in fantasy "I love death!" silliness. Thus much scope for stories.

      - "Wrath" covers battle mad berserkers quite well, which is something that is popular.




      Something else it is probably important to note: having a background is always going to restrict what you can put in an AB, but many of the more contentious aspects of the WDG book were not background mandated, they were "background can go either way honestly".

      Sometimes you just have to pick one person or the other.
      The implementation of background in rules wasn't discussed?
    • Kapten Kluns wrote:

      Krokz wrote:

      Please. They are not sins! You are being shackled by your leaders, they are telling you they are sins so they can control you and take away your freedom.

      P.S.
      I just do not like calling them "sins". :)
      How come :)? And what do you call them instead?
      The seven-ish sins (lists vary among older sources, I'm a fain of vainglory) are not acts, they are motivations for acts. IT is commonly held that they motivate you to commit other sins, like wrath leading to violence, envy to theft, depression to neglect of duties.

      That's rather easy to flip around for the dark gods. They are the primal human motivators. They make us strike out and find new lands, or improve our lives at home. It's not wrath. It's righteous anger at injustice, and only the injust call it wrath. It is not greed, it is improving your business. It's not envy, it's competitiveness. It's not sloth, it's contemplation and measured response. And since when has pride ever been something bad? Recognize your self-worth! Only those who would rule you tell you to be happy with your lot. Go out and seize the day! Crush those who would stand in the way of your will to rule! HOW DARE THEY PREACH MODERATION WHEN BEFORE THEM STANDS A RULING KING! T

      A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

      Collection of all offcially posted Vermin background

      "Après la vie - le mort, après le mort, la vie de noveau.
      Après le monde - le gris; après le gris - le monde de nouveau."
    • Eldan wrote:

      Kapten Kluns wrote:

      Krokz wrote:

      Please. They are not sins! You are being shackled by your leaders, they are telling you they are sins so they can control you and take away your freedom.

      P.S.
      I just do not like calling them "sins". :)
      How come :)? And what do you call them instead?
      The seven-ish sins (lists vary among older sources, I'm a fain of vainglory) are not acts, they are motivations for acts. IT is commonly held that they motivate you to commit other sins, like wrath leading to violence, envy to theft, depression to neglect of duties.
      That's rather easy to flip around for the dark gods. They are the primal human motivators. They make us strike out and find new lands, or improve our lives at home. It's not wrath. It's righteous anger at injustice, and only the injust call it wrath. It is not greed, it is improving your business. It's not envy, it's competitiveness. It's not sloth, it's contemplation and measured response. And since when has pride ever been something bad? Recognize your self-worth! Only those who would rule you tell you to be happy with your lot. Go out and seize the day! Crush those who would stand in the way of your will to rule! HOW DARE THEY PREACH MODERATION WHEN BEFORE THEM STANDS A RULING KING! T


      Would that make daemons to motivational coaches then? Problem with making the 7 sins more humanly appliable is making them less so for daemons
    • Pure Chaos is Prima Materia... it turns into whatever it touches. Hence 7 gods were born when Prima Materia first touched mortal minds. At this stage Chaos was friendly and wanted to fulfill hidden dreams of mortal creatures.

      But most mortals rejected gifts of Chaos. Soon Chaos will touch their minds again but this time will not look for dreams He will look for horrors buried deep in their souls. New god will be born... Famine, Plague, Madness, Decay, Darkness...
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    • JimMorr wrote:

      Pure Chaos is Prima Materia... it turns into whatever it touches. Hence 7 gods were born when Prima Materia first touched mortal minds. At this stage Chaos was friendly and wanted to fulfill hidden dreams of mortal creatures.

      But most mortals rejected gifts of Chaos. Soon Chaos will touch their minds again but this time will not look for dreams He will look for horrors buried deep in their souls. New god will be born... Famine, Plague, Madness, Decay, Darkness...
      maybe the prima materia got corrupted through the true being of mortal minds and now has grown sentient and corrupt. We have in other words created our own doom
    • Kaitin wrote:

      The implementation of background in rules wasn't discussed?

      Did someone sit down and build a draft of the entire WDG and DL FAB's as part of the process of deciding on the Sins?

      No. That would have been utterly impractical.


      Did discussion take place that covered something in the broad topic area of "so, how will the ADT and RT implement this?"?

      Yes. Of course, that's a trivially easy bar to hurdle.



      Could it have been a more extensive discussion? Axiomatically so.
      Did we do a perfect job? Axiomatically not.



      The background team walks a fine tightrope. On the one hand, we need to lock in details because you get a headache going "WDG are like this or maybe not", and the rules designers benefit from having defined background to inspire designs. People think that "you can create whatever you want!" encourages creativity, but actually, having something to build upon is incredibly helpful in getting the process a) started and b) doing something new rather than something you've done or seen before.

      On the other, it is possible for us to lay down too many restrictions and tie a design team up in knots with no way to fix their design.

      On the *gripping* hand, if we actually did design work, we (being a much smaller team than the ADT's) would have to be incredibly skilled and awesome to match the combined skills of sixteen other teams AND still do our job.

      I mean I, personally, am totally up for the job but I worry for my teammates, they seem a bit stressed at times (that's a joke).



      tl;dr?

      Was it considered? Yes.
      Was everything considered? No. But we tried.

      Background Team

    • Col. Tartleton wrote:

      I would imagine they have a post modern deconstructed system of amorality. They genuinely reject your morality and replace it with their own.

      Lust over Chastity
      Gluttony over Temperance
      Greed over Charity
      Sloth over Diligence
      Wrath over Patience
      Envy over Kindness
      Pride over Humility

      As an example in our own society do we not see sins dressed up as virtues? I don't want to be overly political or philosophical but social justice ideology seems to be actively engaged in justifying and rewarding these traditional bad behaviors.

      To be clear I am not saying traditional Christian virtues are good and these new secular values are bad, just that they are opposed. For example Christian thought says to love your enemies and the new ideology says you should hate your oppressor. Welcome to wrath over patience.
      This comparison ends up revealing more about the readers' political leanings than helping to explain the morality of WDG, especially since there isn't even much discussion of WDG being particularly hateful in the fluff.

      They have more of a Nietzchean morality, viewing the "civilized" parts of the world as systematized oppression for the exceptional. This can be seen in their disregard for the enslaved, whom they ultimately free: They only want to prove themselves against the willing, and let each individual pursue their own advancement.

      Followers of the god of Greed might be like Gordon Gekko in Wall Street.

      Those who follow Lust might resemble Lestat in An Interview with the Vampire.
    • personally I would have really liked the 4 horsemen route. But the more biblical 4 - conquest, war, death, and famine.

      Weary and pestilence translate over well as war and famine (disease and deformities from parasites in times of famine). Change and lust are more challenging translation, but I like the very distinct differences that the 4 horsemen offer including conquest
    • JimMorr wrote:

      Squirrelloid wrote:

      Tzeentch is actually 'change',
      Well, In Tarot Death is Change.
      There was an option of not going for any gods at all. Leaving WoDG as deamon worshippers with hundreds of unnamed lesser and bigger powers based on strong human emotions (desires and fears). 7 Sins and 4 Horsemen together and much more. Such approach would allow to keep the Four as part of powers behind the Veil... and it would be more chaotic. Instead of Chosen introduce warriors that willfully accepted deamonic parasites into their minds and bodies. And go from there. But it would be probably too heavy metal.
      Death in mystic interpretations of the Tarot has nothing to do with the Death of the four horsemen of the apocalypse. The Tarot is intentionally and intrinsically metaphorical.

      And this is a facile understanding of the Death card in tarot. It's not change, although it is the precursor to change. Metaphorically, an old part of your life dies. But the death itself isn't the change, it's the absence of what has died that allows or forces change. The thing that died is locked in stasis. (In the metaphorical interpretation - that old part of your life is done and set, there's no altering it). Think also of other metaphorical uses: death is the contrast to change. When an idea dies, it stops changing and ceases development. The death of love cuts short growth in romance. Now, like a tree which falls and creates space to allow sunlight in for other things to grow, death creates the possibility and necessity of change afterwards, but that change is separate and distinct from death.

      So an embodiment of change may cause death and destruction, but that does not make them embodiments of death and destruction. Those are tools, not ends. To decide death = change is to confuse ends and means. (And other means are available - the embodiment of change is not limited solely to death and destruction).

      The true 'change' tarot is Wheel of Fortune.
      Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

      Legal

      Playtester

      Chariot Command HQ

    • Squirrelloid wrote:

      And this is a facile understanding of the Death card in tarot. It's not change, although it is the precursor to change. Metaphorically, an old part of your life dies. But the death itself isn't the change, it's the absence of what has died that allows or forces change. The thing that died is locked in stasis. (In the metaphorical interpretation - that old part of your life is done and set, there's no altering it). Think also of other metaphorical uses: death is the contrast to change. When an idea dies, it stops changing and ceases development. The death of love cuts short growth in romance. Now, like a tree which falls and creates space to allow sunlight in for other things to grow, death creates the possibility and necessity of change afterwards, but that change is separate and distinct from death.

      So an embodiment of change may cause death and destruction, but that does not make them embodiments of death and destruction. Those are tools, not ends. To decide death = change is to confuse ends and means. (And other means are available - the embodiment of change is not limited solely to death and destruction).

      The true 'change' tarot is Wheel of Fortune.
      That's certainly a solid interpretation, but in a more cyclical worldview, it is equally legitimate to view death not just as the catalyst for change, but also as the beginning, or first stage of change. Casting off of the old is as much a part of change as taking on the new, and often comes first.

      Death certainly isn't the embodiment of change though.