KoE General Discussion thread

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  • Duke Niemar wrote:

    Dominant is whatever really, limiting 2+/2+ with a 4+ aegis immune to divine is fair. Making it unavailable to towering is what makes no sense to me. Also making it dominant while both reroll armor and the +1 aegis armor are both just that, armor, you cannot combine them anyway... It is stupid. If it is supposed to be dominant, make it a shield upgrade so it at least makes some sort of sense.

    Doesn't feel like the designers really have thought this through.
    ? it is an shield enchatment

                                 

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  • You guys want to Renown come back??
    -Forget Lethat Strike. MW (1D3+1) on every attack. If too good, downtune it to MW(1D3)...combine it with Tristan and I would take it everyday.

    -Valour
    The bearer automatically issues a Duel whenever posible (this cannot be prevented by issuing a Duel with another firendly model first), and this Duel must be accpeted whenver posible.
    The bearer must reroll failed to-hit and to-wound Rolls.

    -Audacity
    The bearer and all R&F models in the bearer´s unit gain hatred. The bearer may only join Standard Heights units.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by SirVelinn ().

  • The Kremlin wrote:

    I tested both piety and valour but in the end neither quite fit over other options. I still think both are strong.

    I also looked at humility on my bsb to extend the area I could have Ld protection on my Yeomen.

    Sir_Sully wrote:

    Marcos24 wrote:

    And I wish valor worked even outside of duels
    Valour should work when directing attacks at a character or a champion.

    Valour is perfect like this.

    I think is the best tool that we have.
    Some many reasons:

    - Reroll to hit and wound is the same that have too many attacks againts a character, better even that paired+Hero's heart. Potion of Strength, our Perfect Renown.

    - Even if you receive a charge on the flank where the character can not do make way, if the other have a character or a champion, you always can hit

    - Is the defender of the Unit ( Plus Tabard is the perfect wall for most characters)

    - If your enemy have a block with champion, or a unit like minotaur like minotaurs with champion, you can send him to redirect and he do it better than Green Knight.

    - No charge dependance, allways available, especially when you need it most

    - The perfect bodyguard (or Cuatl lord) Killer (where you have toooooooo many problems to break them)

    - Is the perfect destroyer inside of a unit no charge dependance like Questings Knights (Flaming Banner)



    I have been playing Valour for more than one year, and always on all my lists


    But it seems that I'm the only one who sees the potential we have....................
  • Klexe wrote:

    ? it is an shield enchatment
    Wait. Battlescribe is trolling me again. It is a shield but battlescribe gives me error for it if I take another armor. Still, though unavailable to towering is pointless and what really annoys me. Why would you take it on a peg or horse? Those you can hide in a bunker, artillery bye bye and when artillery cannot touch you, 1+ rerollable 5/6++ is way better.
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves
  • SirVelinn wrote:

    -Valour
    The bearer automatically issues a Duel whenever posible (this cannot be prevented by issuing a Duel with another firendly model first), and this Duel must be accpeted whenver posible.
    The bearer must reroll failed to-hit and to-wound Rolls.
    rerolling all to hits and to wounds is too good.

    A character against rank and file can get to 6 attacks (Hero's Heart PW) with Off 8 and ignore parry (so hitting most things on 2s or 3s) at strength 5 AP3. Rerolling misses against R&F would make that combination far too good. Taking Crusader means that you don't even compromise defense. The idea is that the model can fight against other characters / champions really well but without becoming better against R&F. They're motivated by the glory of killing an enemy big shot.

    As @Thurvack points out Valour has some very useful uses. It also has some major disadvantages (like railroading you into a duel you can't possibly win). It's a double edged sword, but that doesn't make it necessarily bad.

    If changing it (which I'm not sure is necessary), I'd change it to allow the model to always target characters in cc (even when they couldn't normally) and reroll hits and wounds vs characters. See how that plays.

    SirVelinn wrote:

    You guys want to Renown come back??
    -Forget Lethat Strike. MW (1D3+1) on every attack. If too good, downtune it to MW(1D3)...combine it with Tristan and I would take it everyday.
    I don't like this because it feels too good. Divine Judgement is 80 pts for Devastating Charge (MW(D3+1)) and only works on a lance. This would work on everything and for all rounds of combat. Lethal strike D3+1 is fine - it's relying on 6s which was never a really problem before it was nerfed. If D3+1 isn't acceptable, it needs something to give it a boost. Maybe ignore parry or grant's parry to a mounted character?

    If going for MW for all rounds on everything, MW2 would be more the right power level.

    SirVelinn wrote:

    -Audacity
    The bearer and all R&F models in the bearer´s unit gain hatred. The bearer may only join Standard Heights units.
    Would Peg knights with hatred really be that overpowered? It is 1 round of combat. Virtues should really be more focused on the knight rather than as a unit buffer. Piety and humility already buff units, I'm not in favour of more.

    I like the idea behind Audacity but there aren't enough large or TP models out there to make me want to take it.
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • I would take MW2 on renown any day. A set number is far easier to plan around than a rng based one. The dice screw us over enough with rubber lance as is.
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves
  • My thoughts behind virtues:

    1. Virtue of Might is FINE! It doesnt need to be nerfed the power level is decent. A charge only effect is good. It is good vs everything (even rank and file by removing up to 10 models) thanks to fortress of faith (which is also fine) and s7 is very good vs monsters. This enabes divine judgment which then even furhter helps vs monster any kind. It is our answer to unbreakable things like Stank.
      • The only change i could see would be: Remove +1s and +1 ap (+1av stays) and remove devastatching charge and make it first round only. A very small nerf against monster(he still does with s6 ap 3 vs the standard monster 2.35 and then second set of av 1.12 wounds = 3.46 wounds = 10.3wounds avg. Even a stank explodes then (math 5.3) almost round1 [imo this is a fine balance that something like a Stank BARLY suvrvives the charge on avg
      • Overall you could also copy it 1:1 and i would be happy
      • This is the power level i want from VIrtues
    2. [lexicon]Virtue[/lexicon] of [lexicon]Valour[/lexicon]:
      • It is my favourite virtue but it feels just bad if you waste your duell vs champs over and over again. It should stay the same just add stuff ideas:
        • Add "The bearer gains +1cr for every slain enemy in a duell for the reminder of the game" (kill champion = free 1cr [1 cr is huge for an tanky army as ours])
        • Stubborn while fighting enemy characters (note not champions)[you charge: enemy is steadfast and throws his champion away? next turn you would break? well not anymore if you take valour AND if your guy survives)
        • Main problem? No really good weapon. You would love the juicy grail oath for +1WS but which weapon you take? Heroes hearth is somewhat okay but meh.... Greatsword, Lance, Halberd, Paired weapons are all no goes as you reduce defense which is crucically bad in duells. Tristran? On paper awesome but a weak weapon. Imo we need just to buff tristran. Combo should be crusader, valour, tristran this should cost around 190 (without virtue) so we can buff tristran for 35 points
        • Idea for Tristran: An anti character weapon. Characters are mostly 1+as. Mace of Tristran: Destroy weapon enchantment like now. Bearer gains +1av, +3 ap and enemy must reroll sucessfull special saves (combo: you are at most s4 with reroll which is really bad vs R6 but vs R3-5 [enemy characters] you are set with 5av ows7 [math: 4.44 hits on 3+ and 3.75 hits on 4+] and S4 (vs R3 3.33 vs elfen chars) (vs DH kings = 2.083 wounds) (vs other humans: 3.94) (vs saurus: 2.46 wounds) you see the the idea. Then you half it vs 1+AS. Nowhere near OP but a stable Duelling weapon and it makse sense that a mace is anti armor smashing (gosh i write too much again)
        • The bearer gains +1OWs and DWs at the end of close combat phase if he was fighting in a duell until not longer engaged in close combat
        • You want kingsslayer as weapon... But with what? Easy solution... Questing oath allows you to carry a shield with every weapon. Halberd kingslayer would be perfect with valour
    3. [lexicon]Virtue[/lexicon] of [lexicon]renown[/lexicon]
      • One decent combo which is Questing renown, blessed inscription. One meh combo. Renown heroes hearth fortress of faith grail oath. Like what is it intended target? I guess killing monster? It cant be anti character really because that is valour. It cant be charge only = might. Audacity is anti monster?
      • I am not really sure what to do with it....Imo a MW2 would be good as weapon enchantment.







    ....


    This gets way too long. I need to start fresh. I would love to have 7 big and 7 small virtues
    You can mix them but big takes more. Perhaps sometimes you can take 3 small but only 1 big in context

    These virtues i would like to carry over

    Big virtues
    1. Might = allround charge only / weakness = not charging
    2. Valour = duell anti character / weakness if not duell
    3. Audacity = anti monster / weakness not vs monster
    4. Daring = movement phase / weakness if in combat does nothing
    5. Humility = LD improvement (also for knights) / weakness if in combat does nothing
    6. Virtue for damsel (warrior damsel?)
    7. virtue for damsel (General damsel?)


    Small virtues

    Small stuff. Just plain special rules or one of a kind ideas:
    1. Renown = bearer gains lethal strike
    2. Dragonborn = bearer gains aegis vs fire 2+ (plain copy from rulebook but makes a differnce)
    3. Breath weapon = S4 ap0 (swap wrymwoodcore for a better weapon imo)
    4. Knightly superiorty = bearer gains +1OWS
    5. +1AV
    6. Magic res +2
    7. The bearer gains channel +1



    Something like this

    VIrtue of might is the get go which means ZERO other options possible. Valour is 40 points cheaper.
    So you can take 40 points from small virtues.
    Dragonborn= around 25-30 points (more expensive because no magic points)
    Renown = 20 points
    Av = 20 points (champ cost 20 and gives +1av and other stuff so 1av on a hero could cost around that... dont know)

    But you get the idea.

    Will there again be best in slot combos? Absolutly you can not deny that but this allows for more fun combos.

    You could perhaps even take 4 small virtues.
    +1av +1ows +lethal + dragonborn = 20+15+20+25 = 80 points

                                 

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  • Klexe wrote:

    My thoughts behind virtues:

    1. Virtue of Might is FINE! It doesnt need to be nerfed the power level is decent. A charge only effect is good. It is good vs everything (even rank and file by removing up to 10 models) thanks to fortress of faith (which is also fine) and s7 is very good vs monsters. This enabes divine judgment which then even furhter helps vs monster any kind. It is our answer to unbreakable things like Stank.
      • The only change i could see would be: Remove +1s and +1 ap (+1av stays) and remove devastatching charge and make it first round only. A very small nerf against monster(he still does with s6 ap 3 vs the standard monster 2.35 and then second set of av 1.12 wounds = 3.46 wounds = 10.3wounds avg. Even a stank explodes then (math 5.3) almost round1 [imo this is a fine balance that something like a Stank BARLY suvrvives the charge on avg
      • Overall you could also copy it 1:1 and i would be happy
      • This is the power level i want from VIrtues
    2. [lexicon]Virtue[/lexicon] of [lexicon]Valour[/lexicon]:
      • It is my favourite virtue but it feels just bad if you waste your duell vs champs over and over again. It should stay the same just add stuff ideas:
        • Add "The bearer gains +1cr for every slain enemy in a duell for the reminder of the game" (kill champion = free 1cr [1 cr is huge for an tanky army as ours])
        • Stubborn while fighting enemy characters (note not champions)[you charge: enemy is steadfast and throws his champion away? next turn you would break? well not anymore if you take valour AND if your guy survives)
        • Main problem? No really good weapon. You would love the juicy grail oath for +1WS but which weapon you take? Heroes hearth is somewhat okay but meh.... Greatsword, Lance, Halberd, Paired weapons are all no goes as you reduce defense which is crucically bad in duells. Tristran? On paper awesome but a weak weapon. Imo we need just to buff tristran. Combo should be crusader, valour, tristran this should cost around 190 (without virtue) so we can buff tristran for 35 points
        • Idea for Tristran: An anti character weapon. Characters are mostly 1+as. Mace of Tristran: Destroy weapon enchantment like now. Bearer gains +1av, +3 ap and enemy must reroll sucessfull special saves (combo: you are at most s4 with reroll which is really bad vs R6 but vs R3-5 [enemy characters] you are set with 5av ows7 [math: 4.44 hits on 3+ and 3.75 hits on 4+] and S4 (vs R3 3.33 vs elfen chars) (vs DH kings = 2.083 wounds) (vs other humans: 3.94) (vs saurus: 2.46 wounds) you see the the idea. Then you half it vs 1+AS. Nowhere near OP but a stable Duelling weapon and it makse sense that a mace is anti armor smashing (gosh i write too much again)
        • The bearer gains +1OWs and DWs at the end of close combat phase if he was fighting in a duell until not longer engaged in close combat
        • You want kingsslayer as weapon... But with what? Easy solution... Questing oath allows you to carry a shield with every weapon. Halberd kingslayer would be perfect with valour
    3. [lexicon]Virtue[/lexicon] of [lexicon]renown[/lexicon]
      • One decent combo which is Questing renown, blessed inscription. One meh combo. Renown heroes hearth fortress of faith grail oath. Like what is it intended target? I guess killing monster? It cant be anti character really because that is valour. It cant be charge only = might. Audacity is anti monster?
      • I am not really sure what to do with it....Imo a MW2 would be good as weapon enchantment.







    ....


    This gets way too long. I need to start fresh. I would love to have 7 big and 7 small virtues
    You can mix them but big takes more. Perhaps sometimes you can take 3 small but only 1 big in context

    These virtues i would like to carry over

    Big virtues
    1. Might = allround charge only / weakness = not charging
    2. Valour = duell anti character / weakness if not duell
    3. Audacity = anti monster / weakness not vs monster
    4. Daring = movement phase / weakness if in combat does nothing
    5. Humility = LD improvement (also for knights) / weakness if in combat does nothing
    6. Virtue for damsel (warrior damsel?)
    7. virtue for damsel (General damsel?)


    Small virtues

    Small stuff. Just plain special rules or one of a kind ideas:
    1. Renown = bearer gains lethal strike
    2. Dragonborn = bearer gains aegis vs fire 2+ (plain copy from rulebook but makes a differnce)
    3. Breath weapon = S4 ap0 (swap wrymwoodcore for a better weapon imo)
    4. Knightly superiorty = bearer gains +1OWS
    5. +1AV
    6. Magic res +2
    7. The bearer gains channel +1



    Something like this

    VIrtue of might is the get go which means ZERO other options possible. Valour is 40 points cheaper.
    So you can take 40 points from small virtues.
    Dragonborn= around 25-30 points (more expensive because no magic points)
    Renown = 20 points
    Av = 20 points (champ cost 20 and gives +1av and other stuff so 1av on a hero could cost around that... dont know)

    But you get the idea.

    Will there again be best in slot combos? Absolutly you can not deny that but this allows for more fun combos.

    You could perhaps even take 4 small virtues.
    +1av +1ows +lethal + dragonborn = 20+15+20+25 = 80 points
    I could spend all day coming up with cheap little micro virtues.
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  • so you can take:
    0-1 Oath
    0-1 Virtues
    X Favours of the lady
    And items
    ?

    Favours and virtues max 100points

    I like it, but i see it complicated to balance

    Fluffwise:
    7 virtues ( knights )
    X favours of the lady( knights( all? ) and damsels)
    - mr
    - breath
    - channel
    - bound spell
    - 2++ vs fire
    - 2++ vs toxic
    - +1 Ld
    - +1 str
    +1 av
    Etc ..
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  • 1) I don't want to see way more new units. This army should consist of many knights. And no matter if it was during Warhammer's several editions (okay, there have been just 2 books from the late 90s to the end of Warhammer) or nowadays - most opponents can't tell the knights apart (every real KoE players knows the name of the horse by looking at its butt...). So I don't want that many new kinds of knights. Take the 3 normal ones, add maybe one and I'm fine with it. But I would like to see a knights on big creatures like unicorns, pheasants, chicken, lions - just something big, with 3 HP and at least 50x50 bases! This is the army of knights, so give us something to compete with young griffons, Karkadans,...

    2) I want more flexibility in our army. It seems like this army is just good for one thing - hunting for monsters. But what if the opponent doesn't have monsters? Your Duke, flying around with his pony and showing around his shiny armour, is bragging like he would ride a dragon, capable of smashing units. Just because he paid many points for his cute mount and specialised equipment, he is not that useful.
    Against normal units, his damage output is not that impressive (and Might is just working during a charge; he will cause around 4-5 wounds, if he hits on a 3+) and he has just 3 wounds with Res4. That's not much.

    3) The rest of the army struggles vs many opponents. Elves are attacking before charging knights, hit them on 2+ often, dwarfs are tough, often stubborn and hit hard and there are several things more.
    If the knights are stucked, this won't change easily. And lance formation? Well, if other armies would play 12 knights in an unit (nobody does, because it's expensive and they've got better options) and field them 6x2, they will get the same amount of attacking riders plus 3 mounts more. The advantages of lance formation are ranks and the possibility for multi-charges.
    But I don't think it should be necessary to charge with 2 lances, maybe including characters. The KoE players has 2 out of maybe 4 of his cc-units and roundabout 1200 points involved in a melee with a unit of maybe 800 points...
  • logick wrote:

    It would be nice if MIGHT doesn't apply only on lance. Because you can't play it with other weapons and it's quite a pity/shame.

    A small modification to it like if lance -> keep it like this, if not lance -> we could remove the devastating charge +1 charge +1 ap. (Or keep it)
    I think so too. All weapons First turn only. No +1s/+1ap. Only devastating charge effect is +1AV.

    It will still be used with lance because of divine judgement

                                 

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  • The issue I have is that to become the army of the knight, which you clearly want, I think we need at least 2 new knightly units on horse like creatures.
    • One to act as an anvil (which wouldn't have lance formation or lances and so should be visually different - maybe with throwing weapons? to simulate Cataphracts...)
    • One to specialise Pegasus knights. Pegs currently do 2 things well (heavy and light unit). I (and many others) want to split the unit so that each option does one of those very well and the other not so well. This should reduce the cost of the unit as it has less utility which is a good thing.
    Also I think grails can already compete with young griffons. I don't agree with this.

    We're not only good for one thing but we can be very good at hunting monsters, if you build a list that specialises on that. Don't read too much into the ETC lists. It's a team tournament so specialised lists are possible because they have a lot of control on their matchups. Making a specialised list at a singles tournament is a huge gamble.

    Also a might duke is good against R&F if you set him up right. E.g. with fortress of faith and charging, he'll deal an average of 3.78 wounds to R&F and therefore gets another 3 or 4 attacks - calling it 3, that gives another 2.26 wounds. Name another character that can deal an average of 6 wounds in a single combat round from 5 attacks, without factoring in spells.... The charging constraint is what balances it, if he was S7, WM(D3+1) generating extra attacks per wound all the time it would be overpowered.
    Why do you think it's ok for 600 points of cavalry to break 800 points of infantry if we charge them to the face. What can an infantry general do about that? That's point and click which I don't want. I want to win but I don't want to win because I brought KoE.

    Lance formation is awesome. You're right that ranks and combo charges are the advantages but you've missed the point. If you flank with 9 knights anything that isn't stubborn or unbreakable is going to be deleted. Playing KoE is all about setting up that flank charge. Any other army flanking with 9 knights doesn't break steadfast.

    Elves hitting before us and often hitting on 2s isn't going to change. At least if they're hitting on 2s they're not (usually) wounding on 2s and (usually) have a low AP. We also have a spell that grants distracting and another that gives +2 agility which stacks with the +1 Agi charge bonus - there's a reason why people like Divination. Also if you flank them (cavalry shouldn't charge an equivalent enemy in the face) they only get 4 or 5 attacks.

    Stubborn is always going to be an issue for a cavalry army. We have some of the things we're asking for would help us deal with these units. How do you suggest that we sort out your #3 without adding units?
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • Elves hiting before us isnt really a problem imo.
    Grails hit before elves or at the same time.
    Last charge
    Divination
    Trebuchets (lul at elven block :D )
    Flanking (no stubborn)
    Forlorns agi 5 if charging.
    Forlorns agi 6 if beeing charged (hitting always at the same time)

                                 

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  • Grouchy Badger wrote:

    I get kinda upset that all the rest of the virtues are almost completely ignored. A lot of work went into them, as well as the majority of the un-used magical items.
    They are dramatically overpriced for paladins, and their effect is more often than not redundant on dukes.

    If they were half price they would see some use.

    Also about the grail vow: just give models with oath of fealty and grail vow +1 to hit when charging with a lance. That fixes the balance between the vows and fixes rubberlance syndrome, and gives a better destinction between aspirants and realms.

    Easy fix imo.
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