KoE General Discussion thread

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  • Several designers have spent time in this thread and others explaining why Hippogriff Knights don't work as a unit. It isn't like there is some conspiracy against them or against the people who like them. The team has looked at them, considered them and thought about them. We came to a reasonable decision that Hippogriff Knights; don't do anything different from other units, cap the upward eliteness of existing Pegasus Knights, Consume complexity as you attempt to make them distinct or weaker, make characters mounted on Hippogriff less special. On power level they are either too strong or compete too much with Pegasus Knights. Introducing two units that function almost the same way is bad game design and should be avoided where possible (sometimes we cannot avoid it because of Legacy system and models). If we are going to take the risk that units are too similar, we are going to take the risk with new concepts that we can more readily alter.

    Thought and time and care went into this decision. I never had anything against Hippogriff Knight units, but we talked about it and I was convinced that as a unit or single model non-character they would be bad for the game. We have decided that the best possible end product doesn't include Hippogriff Knights. Warhammer Army Project may include them, but it doesn't care for the internal or external Ballance of the book the way T9A does.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by echoCTRL ().

  • Davian wrote:

    (edit: also, I wouldn't use the word crusade. Both for the historical connection but also for the religious bit as well. A crusader/a crusade is something very christian, and has a lot to do with the Cross. I would try to find another word more in line with the lady of the lake religioin. A chalicade? :p )
    We seriously thought about this one, but I opted out because a « Calissade » would be assimilated to a swearword in French (especially Canadian French), while just bringing general confusion among our readers.

    However, we did craft a Brezannic word, since Brezannic is Equitaine's holy language (not Latin), and it's « Bresle » (from Britannic « Brezel »).
    So, « sir Breslin » means « sir Crusader »

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    GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
    First T9A player in West Africa
  • Yeah I get that. And for me as a Northern european christian the word Crusade doesn't have the same connotation like Jihad, despite them being the same thing. But I don't think jihad is an appropiate word either :) And I personally believe many players would object to the use of the term Jihad to describe what their faction is doing in the game. :)

    I am not saying crusade is impossible to use, it is just that it means something very different than what it is in the game :p on the other hand... it does open an arabic inspired KoE army which is doing a jihad. Wonder if there are any good mediveal saracen models? :)

    edit: yes. Gripping beast had some nice looking models. They are not as armoured as one would like though
  • The concept of « Djihad » is the basis for the twin Equitan concept of « Ordeal / Striving », or « Agurenne » (sourcebook page 18)


    The other two Virtues being Courage (Arcalon) and Truth (Guirined)

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  • Davian wrote:

    .... on the other hand... it does open an arabic inspired KoE army which is doing a jihad. Wonder if there are any good mediveal saracen models? :)


    edit: yes. Gripping beast had some nice looking models. They are not as armoured as one would like though
    working on it ;) in the meantime you can have camel riding yeomen lol
  • Marcos24 wrote:

    Davian wrote:

    .... on the other hand... it does open an arabic inspired KoE army which is doing a jihad. Wonder if there are any good mediveal saracen models? :)


    edit: yes. Gripping beast had some nice looking models. They are not as armoured as one would like though
    working on it ;) in the meantime you can have camel riding yeomen lol
    camels are my favorite animal to dislike :p They are awesome and terrifying at the same time.
  • Davian wrote:

    Marcos24 wrote:

    Davian wrote:

    .... on the other hand... it does open an arabic inspired KoE army which is doing a jihad. Wonder if there are any good mediveal saracen models? :)


    edit: yes. Gripping beast had some nice looking models. They are not as armoured as one would like though
    working on it ;) in the meantime you can have camel riding yeomen lol
    camels are my favorite animal to dislike :p They are awesome and terrifying at the same time.
    lol yeah... studying their anatomy really made me think just how weird they are but they're just so unfamiliar to me
  • Davian wrote:

    Ghiznuk wrote:

    It is :rolleyes:

    But same concept, whatever :P
    But that is the thing; why is a christian holy war a game without christians, but the muslim word for holy war is not mentioned but conceptualized instead? :)
    Why can't the crusade be conceptulized as well? Or why don't we have a KoE jihad instead of KoE Augurenne if they have the same concept? :)

    The setting is written in English as a translation convention. The in-world conlangs have their own etymologies (amazing work from the the linguistics team) but they didn't create English.

    And Christianity had more of an impact on modern English than just that one word.

    In modern usage, a crusade isn't specifically a Christian Holy War. A jihad (as the West popularly conceptualizes it; technically speaking, the word doesn't mean holy war) is a type of crusade, even in the sense of a religiously motivated holy war, because that's one of the modern English meanings of crusade.


    Functionally, Equitaine are Crusaders for their religion - they're doing the kinds of things the medieval Crusaders did, while dressing, sounding and behaving in similar ways. Changing their holy symbol to a cup instead of a cross is a cosmetic shift.


    If "Crusade" was etymologically more clearly about crosses ("Crossade") that would be one thing, but it isn't. Enough linguistic shift has occurred that it's mostly just a word now.

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  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Enough linguistic shift has occurred that it's mostly just a word now.
    Just like Jihad. So why are we having crusades but not jihads? :)

    btw, crusade is not "mostly just a word" now. It is still a highly political word which affect millions of people. But that is politics and outside the scope of the forum.

    And I'd like to point out that a crusade translated into swedish is "korståg" which literally mean "cross army". The german word kreuzzug has the same meaning. :)
  • bluntpencil2001 wrote:

    Also, changing a recognisable, perfectly usable existing word, for a made up name, like 'Astra Militarum' or whatever looks awful.

    One assumes that the Equitan Knights are having Crusades instead of jihads is because they're largely modelled on medieval France and England, which did the former, not the latter.
    yes, but we have "arabian" knights of equataine as well. At least one is a Duke. So why no jihad for him? :)
  • Davian wrote:

    WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Enough linguistic shift has occurred that it's mostly just a word now.
    Just like Jihad. So why are we having crusades but not jihads? :)
    btw, crusade is not "mostly just a word" now. It is still a highly political word which affect millions of people. But that is politics and outside the scope of the forum.

    And I'd like to point out that a crusade translated into swedish is "korståg" which literally mean "cross army". The german word kreuzzug has the same meaning. :)

    - bluntpencil2001 summarizes excellently the most relevant difference between crusades vs. jihads (medieval France and England, ....did the former, not the latter).

    - I'm at least somewhat aware of how awful and long-lasting the impact of the Crusades were IRL. This is a wargame; we base our armies on conquerors and killers. The people our factions are based on often did terrible, terrible things with a long shadow. The reason the Cross is the symbol of Christianity is because the Roman Empire tortured people to death in public on them. History is bloody and horrific. Equitaine aren't crusaders because "the Crusades were a just and noble series of wars for God!" but because this is a wargame and it's a lot easier to justify the Imperium of Man attacking someone than the United Federation of Planets.

    (There were many good people in history. They are disproportionately represented among the group of "people who didn't round up their mates to go kill people")

    This isn't to say all of Equitaine are black-hearted villains; they're people. For good and evil, they're people who behave like people really did in history.


    - I don't speak Swedish or (enough) German to offer better translations, but "cross army" is not right, no. Talk more to Ghiznuk, he's in charges of translations. It's entirely plausible that "crusade" is the right word in English but that it should be translated piecemeal as "holy war" into another language - connotations vary between languages.

    - Maybe it should be Holy War, but ultimately it was a judgment call that had to be made.

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  • I agree on everything above. But I still belive it is a bad idea to have a very christian name about holy war against non-christians in the game. Especially when other names for holy wars are not in the game. Islam in this particular case, when we have at least one duke who is non-equataine. And said duke as well is warned about racism in the KoE society. So for me the argument "KoE is based on french/england and they did crusades" is moot since we have KoE members who are based on the arabic world as well. And they did Jihads, not crusades. :)

    I think one could break it down into two seperate issues.

    1: I dont think religious war in a game should use real life religious terms.

    2: But if they do, it should be equal treatment. And this since we have "islam" dukes, we should have jihad just as well as we have "christian" dukes and crusades.
  • Davian wrote:

    2: But if they do, it should be equal treatment. And this since we have "islam" dukes, we should have jihad just as well as we have "christian" dukes and crusades.
    I would say that's not a like for like representation. Dukes from other places are not Sultans or Emirs. They don't use titles from another culture, there's no reason they would use a different term. The point of those Dukes is that they largely embrace values and teachings from Equitaine.

    If you feel strongly about it, you could use KoE rules to represent a Muslim inspired army, using different terms. But that's not what is being represented here.

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