Statline Design change

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  • I prefer the linear design myself, it has several key advantages:
    1. Faster to read (eye moves in one direction)
    2. Easier to cross-compare units and roles
    3. Greater density
    4. More legible with bar icons (nice touch)

    I've made a few efforts to create a similar 1-line system (using black/white numbers with counter-positioned stats), but frankly @Ungrim_7 your design is better.

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  • DJWoodelf wrote:

    kisanis wrote:

    now, one thing about the current stat block vs linear that we run into is that...we're trained for linear.

    Literaly decades of linear statblocks in wargaming.

    in many respects I do agree that our current setup makes sense.

    Still, the linear system looks worth pursuing or exploring.
    other than linear wasnt really possible/necessary if you compare to warhammer FB, because- WS instead of Off and Def
    - no AP as counter to Arm as stat but directly related to Str
    Less stats and only S+T as opposing stats.

    Helmut wrote:

    Another vote for linear looks far smoother and easier on the eye.
    I find it much easier for the eyes to see e.g. Off and Def directly below each other instead of looking to the right or left to find the opposing stat.For single-part models that's perfect. For multi-part models, I agree it can be overcrowded, e.g. all chariots with Crew, Mount and Chassis as separate lines.
    Fortunately, QS doesnt have multi-part models. 8-)

    From data analysis and table design perspective, multiple lines for one entry of course is awful.
    It's great to have one database with one line per unit entry. You can filter and compare very easily.
    In the end it's a matter of purpose.
    When playing the game you should find a stat as fast as possible.
    This is where I find such a two-line block much better than one long line.
    E.g.
    example.gif
    by adding a line you can even visually split blocks of stats.
    Hit Points aren't really the opposite of Attacks, In the order that I need to look at my defensive stats, HP comes last, and whilst strength may indeed be the opposite of resilience, your resilience isn't the opposite of your stregnth, its your opponent's resilience that is the opposite of your stregnth, so for me at least, having opposing stats on top of each other adds nothing but visual clutter. Still I get that others might like it but I don't recall us being polled on such a significant issue. If we are polled on Square v round warmachine bases we should certainly have been polled on linear or vertical stats.
  • Personally, I think that the biggest advantage that the current stat block has is ease of use for multi-part models.

    I don't think anyone has had issues with single models, but once you toss out a chariot with a whole bunch of different rules depending on which part of the model is attacking, the current stat block really helps.

    I do like @Erus mockup, though. It looks nice.
  • lawgnome wrote:

    Personally, I think that the biggest advantage that the current stat block has is ease of use for multi-part models.

    I don't think anyone has had issues with single models, but once you toss out a chariot with a whole bunch of different rules depending on which part of the model is attacking, the current stat block really helps.

    I do like @Erus mockup, though. It looks nice.
    I'm sure that somebody has done the count before, but how many of the unit and mount entries are affected by a multipart layout? That would indicate how anecdotal or not this topic is. We're essentially talking about cavalry and constructs (chariots and war machine) of all size, plus some gigantic beasts such as the gargantula, plus your occasional palanquin/shieldbearers.
    I suspect it's significant, maybe 30-ish percent.
  • Vulgarsty wrote:

    DJWoodelf wrote:

    When playing the game you should find a stat as fast as possible.
    This is where I find such a two-line block much better than one long line.
    E.g.
    example.gif
    by adding a line you can even visually split blocks of stats.
    Hit Points aren't really the opposite of Attacks, In the order that I need to look at my defensive stats, HP comes last, and whilst strength may indeed be the opposite of resilience, your resilience isn't the opposite of your stregnth, its your opponent's resilience that is the opposite of your stregnth, so for me at least, having opposing stats on top of each other adds nothing but visual clutter.
    I don't think the point is to group things in opposites, it's just to make them easy to locate as and when you need them and it just so happens that things are displayed next to each other to make it easy to follow and not lose your place.

    Offensive stuff goes at the top as you need that first and defensive stuff goes underneath, all in the order you need it(ish).
    • Agility tells you the striking order
    • Attacks says how many dice you need
    • Offensive gives the score to hit (at this point the defender takes part by stating Defence)
    • Strength converts the remaining rolls (defender contributes Resilience)
    • Armour Piercing vs Armour is another roll.
    • And finally we're out of attacker stats and get to the defenders final stat which should going off the above logic be Hit Points.


    Which means the table needs to look more like this?

    Agility
    Attacks
    Offensive
    Strength

    Defence
    Resilience
    Armour
    Hit Points

    We've then got a few gaps for other stats which aren't that.
    • Discipline
    • Advance Rate
    • March Rate


    Which is why those three got their own separate line.
    But since HP is off on it's own when it doesn't necessarily need to there as it's got no stat it gets compared to a lot like the six currently aligned nicely, it could be anywhere at this point so we put it at the start instead and we get to save a bit of space.

    With DJWoodelfs version we've got boxes denoting separation of stats.
    Although we probably need the black line between movement stats removed as well as the one between attacks and offensive stats but that's nitpicking and I doubt he was evening intending it to be a final product.

    So as a single line....

    AgilityAttacksOffensiveStrengthArmour PiercingDefenceResilienceArmourHit Points

    If we're only going left to right for everything
    Or, we could have the attacker go left to right and the defender go right to left

    AgilityAttacksOffensiveStrengthArmour PiercingHit PointsArmourResilienceDefence

    And then we put the remaining three stats at either end.
    Advance and March go on the left, as they're attacker stuff...or more specifically they're the active player stuff.
    Discipline goes on the Right as that's (usually) a reactive player stat and a defensive thing.
    We could put discipline in the middle as it gets used at the end of a combat round but then it's harder to find when you need it outside of combat effects.


    AdvanceMarchAgilityAttacksOffensiveStrengthArmour PiercingHit PointsArmourResilienceDefenceDiscipline

    But is that easier to find any individual stat than just having three separate lines like we have now?
    And look at how it uses up the entire width of the text box leaving no room at the left for the unit name and no room at the right for things like special rules.



























    As an extra to maybe prove a point?

    AdvanceMarchAgilityStrengthAttacksOffensiveDisciplineArmour PiercingHit PointsArmourResilienceDefence

    Discipline here is harder to find isn't it?
  • @Eru Your team doesn't need the ExB to tell you how to do your job (which you've proven to be exceedingly good at!) :girlcheer: Pick the layout that you consider best!

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  • Grimbold Blackhammer wrote:

    @Eru Your team doesn't need the ExB to tell you how to do your job (which you've proven to be exceedingly good at!) :girlcheer: Pick the layout that you consider best!
    Just to make it clear - that was @Grimbold Blackhammer speaking with his ExB hat.

    But... Which hat am I speaking with? :GobboFreaky:

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  • Mr.Gobbo wrote:

    Grimbold Blackhammer wrote:

    @Eru Your team doesn't need the ExB to tell you how to do your job (which you've proven to be exceedingly good at!) :girlcheer: Pick the layout that you consider best!
    Just to make it clear - that was @Grimbold Blackhammer speaking with his ExB hat.
    But... Which hat am I speaking with? :GobboFreaky:
    Can we get goblin emoticons with different hats to make it clear?
  • Not sure anyone saw my last question but I think it may be an important one. Army builder apps. Are they optimized for the current profile layout?
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  • Ungrim_7 wrote:

    Not sure anyone saw my last question but I think it may be an important one. Army builder apps. Are they optimized for the current profile layout?
    I know battlescribe supports it - but I think others use a linear statline (not sure, as I don't use them, but I've seen them printed out).

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  • AdvanceMarchDisciplineAgilityAttacksOffenseStrengthArmour PenetrationDefense
    ResilienceArmour

    Hit Points


    IMO, this would be the most intuitive order of stats, colour represent the blocks.
    for Agility, in this case it doesnt even matter if it's a "global" stat or an "offensive" stat.
    IMO, Agility is no Offensive stat. It doesnt influence or determine any dice rolls. Its there to define the order of striking.
    So high agility in fact also counts as being better in defense. "Offense is the best defense".
    (Good) Defensive stats are there to prevent losing models. A high Agility does prevent that in case the units have specific sizes when killing models first does also lead to having less casualties yourself.

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  • I'm still reading, and I'll answer soon (once I get time, 0.205 is keeping me quite busy :p).

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  • Perhaps because I am used to it, like many others... but I favour the linear presentation presented here. It feels less cluttered and more organised compared the current layout.

    As for opposing stats below one another (as is the case now, but not there for linear), it has been mentioned before: you compare to your opponents stats and not your own. So it matters little where they are placed, as long as they are easy to locate.