About the problem with rules.

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    • About the problem with rules.

      I just don't get it. I am new to this game, and a lot of people is upset because of the complexity of the rules. However, the only thing that made me quit AoS (wich it was my first wargame) and get into this one is that the rules are TOTALLY free, and the complexity of them, wich I assumed as a challenge. So why people is saying that simple rules are better? Don't they see the boredom of it? Is people tired of mentally challenging games, and thinking in general?
    • It's not about complexity. Or not just about complexity. I've played dozens of wargames, tabletop games, roleplaying games and computer games over the years and one thing I realized is that there's such a thing as unnecessary detail.

      There are a lot of things where I wish the ninth age went into more detail. The leadership rules, perhaps. Scenarios. Weapon malfunctions. But in other areas? Entirely unnecessary detail.

      ROleplaying games are great about this. I've never played in a Dungeons and Dragons group in any edition that actually calculated the weight and encumbrance of the player characters' equipment, if it wasn't extremely blatantly too heavy, which was done by estimates ("No, you can't loot all three sets of adamantine plate armour, halfling thief"). There are games where complexity is fun. I've played Rolemaster, a game where you roll on each attack whether you go through the armor, through the flesh, and through the bone, on which body part it is and then detailed wound recovery. And I've enjoyed doing that. But I've played other games where every skill check involved three or four dice rolls, different for every skill, and all I could think was "this adds nothing whatsoever to anyone's enjoyment".

      The thing is, people hve different tolerances for that kind of thing. I know people who refuse to play any RPG more rules-heavy than FATE and others who describe everything less heavy than D&D third edition as "fluff".The same goes for war games. APparently, there are people out there who enjoy "The Campaign for North Africa", which is rated as taking 1000 hours on average on Board Game Geek, contains 1800 counters, requires five players to a side, some of whom do nothing but logistics and supplies, and covers the entire war in North Africa down to the level of single airplanes and in enough detail that Italian troops require more water because they eat pasta instead of bread. To quote one player:
      “Every military division has a sheet of paper, and on it you’ve got a box for every battalion. It’ll tell you how many guns you have, but more interestingly, it’ll also list the fuel and water. Every game turn, three percent of the fuel evaporates, unless you’re the British before a certain date, because they used 50-gallon drums instead of jerry cans. So instead, seven percent of their fuel evaporates,” It's played on this hex map:

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Eldan ().

    • Generally, people don't mind complex rules, they mind complicated rules. Those are not quite the same things.

      T9A is complex (in comparison to say AoS) in that the way a unit moves might require reforms and wheels whereas in AoS, you just move'm.
      In earlier version, wheeling was somewhat complicated in that you'd measure a wheel inch by inch whereas now you simply wheel up the desired distance and measure your corner from point A to B which is less complicated but the wheeling process as part of the movement phase is equally complex as it was before.

      Another example of complexity that people don't mind is comparing offensive vs defensive to get a to-hit roll. In AoS, you havea static to-hit roll which is much easier but is not as intuitive and not as fun. A human should not be hitting an elf just as easily as he hits a zombie.

      That second example is rather important though because complexity isn't good for its own sake. Complexity has to serve something else, whether it is a balanced game, fun game mechanics or immersion. And of course, there's a time tax. More complex rules generally take more time. So there might well be the case that some people want to reduce complexity because it doesn't serve their goals with the game and then the complex rules just get in the way or waste time.
    • People are different, shocking. :P

      Making games is not rocket science. It's not science at all. So in addition to the complexity in rules that Eldan was talking about, there is also the thing about dynamic systems. People might argue that by changing some things in Warhammer 8th Edition, T9A is now an improved version of it. But the systemic complexity means that my gameplay experience is hugely different, not necessarily better or worse, just different.

      It's hard for you to tell what I find fun in games. You might not even know what I account as a game.
    • Interesting. Although I have little experience with wargames, I do have tons in rpgs. What I wanted to say is that I don't think we need another AoS, which there are tons. I've played AoS, AoS skirmish, Star Wars, Blood bowl, Necromunda and Arena Deathmatch (the only skirmish game I currently play), and they are great, but I don't think we need T9A to be another one of these, because then the entire existence of this game lose its essence. I am sure this game needs some changes, but being streamlined in general is not one of them.

      Thank you for your answers. It is delightful to see such an active community!!
    • Marcos24 wrote:

      antoaar wrote:

      The thing I miss the most is more lore about this game. More stories and all those things. That would give more colour to the game, I think.
      Oh we’re working on it!
      FYI - Great art in the scroll marcos!

      Head of Lectors

      Advisory Board

      "...take a step back and remember that we are playing a game where we roll dice and move little people around the board."

      - Grouchy Badger

    • antoaar wrote:

      The thing I miss the most is more lore about this game. More stories and all those things. That would give more colour to the game, I think.
      You can start by reading all the wealth of stories and lore in the full rule book, paths of magic and in the army books of the sylvan elves, undying dynasties and warriors of the dark gods. Then you have all the lore present in the 12 editions of the 9th scroll. It should take you a while (I haven't managed to read everything yet, too much content hehe). Before you are finished the book of the daemon legions will be out with additional lore.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by joel127 ().

    • joel127 wrote:

      antoaar wrote:

      The thing I miss the most is more lore about this game. More stories and all those things. That would give more colour to the game, I think.
      You can start by reading all the wealth of stories and lore in the full rule book, paths of magic and in the army books of the sylvan elves, undying dynasties and warriors of the dark gods. Then you have all the lore present in the 12 editions of the 9th scroll. It should take you a while (I haven't managed to read everything yet, too much content hehe). Before you are finished the book of the daemon legions will be out with additional lore.
      I dind't read any of the issues, i thought they wasn't about lore.
    • espn wrote:

      the main problem for me was all the nested rules, meaning rules within rules within rules. But it looks like this has become much better in 2.05 :)
      yep - some do work better nested. but we tried to un-nest where able :)

      I think we struck a good balance!

      Head of Lectors

      Advisory Board

      "...take a step back and remember that we are playing a game where we roll dice and move little people around the board."

      - Grouchy Badger

    • For me the complexity of the rules causes 2 problems:

      - Games take too long. I have 5 hours on saturdays to play and it is often not enough. It seems that there are always situations that demand checking multiple locations in the rule book to figure out what to do. Due to the rules changing all the time we usually don't have a printed version of the book and checking a pdf on a phone takes even longer. Should improve when rules go Gold though.

      - The outcome of a game is often determined by who has the best knowledge of the rules to exploit quicks and quircks. I lost a game just because I did not know you could use a combat reform to slide a single model unit out of sight of a counter charge. I won a game because my opponent thought he could swirling melee with a character and his insane SE lord ended up not being able to attack because he was only in contact with my champion who was in a challenge with his own champion.

      More complexity in the rules does not make a game deeper or more strategic. The game of go has extremely simple rules that would fit in less than 1 page but is infinitly deeper than a game like t9a.
      Try out my builder for the 9th age! New Recruit