New Legendary Armybook: Daemon Legions

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  • Lich King wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    I weird question. I really love Nurgle daemon engines (models) both flying drones and small crawlers. About a year ago my friend gifted me one drone as a New Year gift, since he knew my weakness to fluffy and cuddly monstrosities. So question is - what do you think guys - will this daemon engines be able to look adequate in new daemon books? Like Thresher Chariot for example or titan-slayer chariot (with some cosmetic additions)?
    Depends on how your engine looks like. If there is some kind of shooting option represented at the model, I would tend to play it as a hope harvester
    Haven't assembled it yet. As far as I know the drone have melee threshing weapon for meat grinding.
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - reborn be my childhood army
    DL - side project
  • I was a stout monogod man during the years of warhammer.

    Demon book was huge disappointment to me from this regard. Few units per god and that was it. We were told time and again about the great rivalry between the 4 but here we were with a book which was almost useless without co operation between gods and the book was so bland.

    This same blandness affect their fiction too. I remember reading one of the first three books from horus heresy. There was a scene where protagonists accidentally open a portal to warp and one demon pushes trough. It won't take long for reader to figure it out that it was a pink horror. There was zero suspense.

    Now we have a book which presents a true infernal host to us. Upgrades are optional so all units can be tied to single god that way too if players want.
    All things wargaming. My super entertaining hobby blog where anything wargaming related can happen.

    "I heard a television interviewer once suggest that the use of dice made battlegaming on par with Snakes and Ladders and such like games of change. Well, he was being just stupid, or trying to take a rise out of his guest. It is in fact the imponderable which does give reality to 'Battle' and, as we shall see, does cause the players to make proper allowance for the unlikely or even seemingly impossible, which, as we read, did happen surprisingly frequently in the annals of war."
    -Charles Grant
  • sgu97bjd wrote:

    tiny wrote:

    sgu97bjd wrote:

    It feels slightly wrong that followers of these different gods fight together without any kind of friction.
    based on what in the background to you think there should be friction?
    It’s not based on legacy if that’s your concern. I haven’t read all the fluff yet, I’m getting through it and enjoying it and maybe that will explain it. However real life experience says that followers of different gods do not normally pull together seamlessly and some friction between the different followers would be normal, or at the very least less loyalty to a general who followed a different god. I would have thought (again not based on the fluff) that this would be even more true of followers of a malign religion, but then again maybe not.

    The Dark Gods are a single pantheon with a relatively unified agenda. This is not GW, where the Chaos Gods are each other's worst enemies and spend more effort fighting each other than their external enemies.

    Weaker Daemons serve the Stronger. They aren't zealots for a cause, they're inhuman extra-dimensional *things*.


    WDG *do* squabble; this is why they have poor Bubble Discipline. Daemons don't seem to do that. An IC explanation does exist, but I'm not sure y'all are supposed to know what it is.

    Background Team

  • Stunt wrote:

    lemures(tallymen), mageblight gremlins(plaguelings) hoarders,(pest beast) bloat flies(blight flies) are all off in a worst position then the previous book, poison synergy, tackiness,are all worst off then before as well. why push a daemon player now to play poly theme/change mono if they wanna be competitive? if i wanted to play a speed daemon army, with heavy magic,shooting and zoning i would of picked SE, not DL.

    yes i agree sloth,greed,gluttony GD bring a lot more to the table then our previous GD of pest, the manifestation seem a still a bit water down too, in regards to buffing the units i mention above.

    understand its early days, still a few patches to come for DL, but being advocating Pest/ now split in to 3 sins, as its been the underdog for the past 3 years to now see its just had a dump taken on it, bit disappointing

    No i am not asking for mono god restrictions (because powers to be didn't want this) to come back but other gods/sins to be playable not just shooting/magic heavy play style army, being the only choice.

    Supporting "old mono" lists specifically was not a realistic possibility, given the absolute necessity of designing our own daemons (that could be represented with the same minis).


    Lemures, specifically, have Resilience 5. That's kinda crazy.
    Bloat Flies, specifically, have HP 5 and Acid Blood. That's not a nerf, man, not really. (They're also a fair bit cheaper!)
    Hoarders are cheaper, more customizable, and get the grind attacks over time.
    Mageblights have a really really annoying Ambush rule too, and 5+ poison is as good as ever.

    A list full of those guys is still going to be slow but nigh indestructible.

    Maybe points are off in places, but if you want to ram a wall of unkillable demons at somebody, this book looks like it offers it just fine.


    A moment on Bloat Flies: I'm really quite concerned that a maxed out unit of these guys with Broodmother is going to be close to impossible to kill. 30 HP, they hit you when you hurt them, and they rise from the grave. Filling Aves with two such units sounds really nasty. Like Seekers, but with Flying Advance 8.


    And yes, maybe you'll go "my list really needs something more than just a wall of tough stuff". Well good news. You can add it. Model and paint up something else so it matches the rest of your force and include. It can all can serve Gluttony and Greed.

    But seriously, I'm not seeing how "wall of unkillable daemons" got notable worse. Try some of the multitudes of new character options (and remember all 7 gods are available, Lemures etc. serve all seven).

    Background Team

  • After spending a while looking at the book I have come to the following conclusion.

    Firstly the Pros

    Characters - I really love these! Some many options and really well themed with no really obvious powerful choice.

    Special - again lots of great options, using both existing and new units, with some very well thought out units. Some slight variations on power, but nothing too spamable.

    Flyers - again no issues here really.

    Sadly now the cons.

    Core - after doing such a good job with characters, how could the core be so dull!
    I get that they all are customisable with manifestations, but at the core they the same old horrors, daemonettes, plaguebearers and bloodletters.
    You had free reign to go to town on them and have multiple new units, now that you aren't limited by gw models. So why stick with just these?

    Lots of rules - this isn't so much of an issue really, just I think that most players will need a reminder sheet for every game to remind them of all the different and situational rules that come up.
    It won't be so much of an issue over time but just now it looks quite confusing.
    Love the idea of the symbols linking the manifestations though.

    Overall a good book and it has been quite fun going through lots of wacky new builds.
  • ravenheart777 wrote:

    Core - after doing such a good job with characters, how could the core be so dull!

    ravenheart777 wrote:

    So why stick with just these?
    It has been debated back and forth several times internaly but in the end old book forced us sort of into this path as the monothiest builds created a playerbase with only a certain part of the army.

    For a new player or a polothiest plalyer a total switch would not have caused any problem but for a monthiest player (almost half the player base of the old book) it would be quite troublesome especialy for the change players for example if none of their old models would find a natural position in a scoring unit for example.

    We have changed around things quite alot anyway, so to make the transition easier regarding core and scoring options I think it is an OK compromise, whenever the Deamon Legion get an big overhaul again in X amount of years I think this is one of the main point that will be changed to diverse the Army further. But for now we felt it was a to big leap to take with the current monotheist situation for the player base.

    Edit: As keyser writes below other factors in terms of blance also pushed for this, but for me the main issue is the one I descibe above.

    ADT (DL/WDG)

    :DL: + :WDG:

    Task2 (DL) Coordinator

    :DL:

    Design coordinator Task (1-2)

    :DL: + :WDG:

    Lord of the Hobby

    The post was edited 1 time, last by AlFiKa ().

  • ravenheart777 wrote:

    After spending a while looking at the book I have come to the following conclusion.

    Firstly the Pros

    Characters - I really love these! Some many options and really well themed with no really obvious powerful choice.

    Special - again lots of great options, using both existing and new units, with some very well thought out units. Some slight variations on power, but nothing too spamable.

    Flyers - again no issues here really.

    Sadly now the cons.

    Core - after doing such a good job with characters, how could the core be so dull!
    I get that they all are customisable with manifestations, but at the core they the same old horrors, daemonettes, plaguebearers and bloodletters.
    You had free reign to go to town on them and have multiple new units, now that you aren't limited by gw models. So why stick with just these?

    Lots of rules - this isn't so much of an issue really, just I think that most players will need a reminder sheet for every game to remind them of all the different and situational rules that come up.
    It won't be so much of an issue over time but just now it looks quite confusing.
    Love the idea of the symbols linking the manifestations though.

    Overall a good book and it has been quite fun going through lots of wacky new builds.
    Well, after much discussion we decided to keep core with units that are: 1) simple 2) infantry
    This way we ensure that there will be a competition to lists. If we moved let's say hoarders to core, then we'd see 3x hoarders in every lists, even if their stats were a bit down as of now. In reverse, Imps in non-core section would never be picked because of better options.
    The fact that we're trying to stay away from old design does not mean that everything in old book was bad and wrong, we have to keep good ideas and work around them.

    Army Design Team

    Rules Clarification

    Lexicon Team

    Oceanborn

  • Kapten Kluns wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    Exactly what I want to do with Flies - a unit of constantly replenishing meatsacks. Is it possible to add some sort of character to their squad without exposing him to ranged fire?
    buy great beast of prophecy. Its quite expensive tho at 210 pts
    I have used chimeras spam as WoDg BEFORE their price was lowered to 220. Puny 210p will not scare me. Am I right that it is possible to combine the upgrade on unit (brood mother for example) and Dominant upgrade for character (Like living shield) (of course without duplication)?
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - reborn be my childhood army
    DL - side project

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Happy Aspid ().

  • KeyserSoze wrote:

    ravenheart777 wrote:

    After spending a while looking at the book I have come to the following conclusion.

    Firstly the Pros

    Characters - I really love these! Some many options and really well themed with no really obvious powerful choice.

    Special - again lots of great options, using both existing and new units, with some very well thought out units. Some slight variations on power, but nothing too spamable.

    Flyers - again no issues here really.

    Sadly now the cons.

    Core - after doing such a good job with characters, how could the core be so dull!
    I get that they all are customisable with manifestations, but at the core they the same old horrors, daemonettes, plaguebearers and bloodletters.
    You had free reign to go to town on them and have multiple new units, now that you aren't limited by gw models. So why stick with just these?

    Lots of rules - this isn't so much of an issue really, just I think that most players will need a reminder sheet for every game to remind them of all the different and situational rules that come up.
    It won't be so much of an issue over time but just now it looks quite confusing.
    Love the idea of the symbols linking the manifestations though.

    Overall a good book and it has been quite fun going through lots of wacky new builds.
    Well, after much discussion we decided to keep core with units that are: 1) simple 2) infantryThis way we ensure that there will be a competition to lists. If we moved let's say hoarders to core, then we'd see 3x hoarders in every lists, even if their stats were a bit down as of now. In reverse, Imps in non-core section would never be picked because of better options.
    The fact that we're trying to stay away from old design does not mean that everything in old book was bad and wrong, we have to keep good ideas and work around them.
    I think the units that you have in special are great. Leave them where they are.
    What I meant is that you have 7 deadly sins, but only 4 core units.
    Nothing really representing the other sins in core.
    I don't mean have large monsters in core or anything. They could quite easily all be infantry, but may be something like a
    pride unit that gets better against more skilled opponents or an envy unit that copies the opponents off or def or even borrows their weapons.
    That way we aren't being restricted to the old gw core, but don't have all the fiends or hoarders in core.
  • ravenheart777 wrote:

    KeyserSoze wrote:

    ravenheart777 wrote:

    After spending a while looking at the book I have come to the following conclusion.

    Firstly the Pros

    Characters - I really love these! Some many options and really well themed with no really obvious powerful choice.

    Special - again lots of great options, using both existing and new units, with some very well thought out units. Some slight variations on power, but nothing too spamable.

    Flyers - again no issues here really.

    Sadly now the cons.

    Core - after doing such a good job with characters, how could the core be so dull!
    I get that they all are customisable with manifestations, but at the core they the same old horrors, daemonettes, plaguebearers and bloodletters.
    You had free reign to go to town on them and have multiple new units, now that you aren't limited by gw models. So why stick with just these?

    Lots of rules - this isn't so much of an issue really, just I think that most players will need a reminder sheet for every game to remind them of all the different and situational rules that come up.
    It won't be so much of an issue over time but just now it looks quite confusing.
    Love the idea of the symbols linking the manifestations though.

    Overall a good book and it has been quite fun going through lots of wacky new builds.
    Well, after much discussion we decided to keep core with units that are: 1) simple 2) infantryThis way we ensure that there will be a competition to lists. If we moved let's say hoarders to core, then we'd see 3x hoarders in every lists, even if their stats were a bit down as of now. In reverse, Imps in non-core section would never be picked because of better options.The fact that we're trying to stay away from old design does not mean that everything in old book was bad and wrong, we have to keep good ideas and work around them.
    I think the units that you have in special are great. Leave them where they are.What I meant is that you have 7 deadly sins, but only 4 core units.
    Nothing really representing the other sins in core.
    I don't mean have large monsters in core or anything. They could quite easily all be infantry, but may be something like a
    pride unit that gets better against more skilled opponents or an envy unit that copies the opponents off or def or even borrows their weapons.
    That way we aren't being restricted to the old gw core, but don't have all the fiends or hoarders in core.
    In core you have 4 specialists untied from any god:
    Shooters
    Melee fighters
    Tanking Infantry
    Fast infantry
    With all upgrades and dominions you can make them to represent everything you want.
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - reborn be my childhood army
    DL - side project
  • Happy Aspid wrote:

    ravenheart777 wrote:

    In core you have 4 specialists untied from any god:Shooters
    Melee fighters
    Tanking Infantry
    Fast infantry
    With all upgrades and dominions you can make them to represent everything you want.

    I get that. What I'm saying is why are we restricting it to those basic choices.
    I'm even happy for them to be not the optimal choices, just as long as Its something different from gw fluff
  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Stunt wrote:

    lemures(tallymen), mageblight gremlins(plaguelings) hoarders,(pest beast) bloat flies(blight flies) are all off in a worst position then the previous book, poison synergy, tackiness,are all worst off then before as well. why push a daemon player now to play poly theme/change mono if they wanna be competitive? if i wanted to play a speed daemon army, with heavy magic,shooting and zoning i would of picked SE, not DL.

    yes i agree sloth,greed,gluttony GD bring a lot more to the table then our previous GD of pest, the manifestation seem a still a bit water down too, in regards to buffing the units i mention above.

    understand its early days, still a few patches to come for DL, but being advocating Pest/ now split in to 3 sins, as its been the underdog for the past 3 years to now see its just had a dump taken on it, bit disappointing

    No i am not asking for mono god restrictions (because powers to be didn't want this) to come back but other gods/sins to be playable not just shooting/magic heavy play style army, being the only choice.
    Supporting "old mono" lists specifically was not a realistic possibility, given the absolute necessity of designing our own daemons (that could be represented with the same minis).


    Lemures, specifically, have Resilience 5. That's kinda crazy.
    Bloat Flies, specifically, have HP 5 and Acid Blood. That's not a nerf, man, not really. (They're also a fair bit cheaper!)
    Hoarders are cheaper, more customizable, and get the grind attacks over time.
    Mageblights have a really really annoying Ambush rule too, and 5+ poison is as good as ever.

    A list full of those guys is still going to be slow but nigh indestructible.

    Maybe points are off in places, but if you want to ram a wall of unkillable demons at somebody, this book looks like it offers it just fine.


    A moment on Bloat Flies: I'm really quite concerned that a maxed out unit of these guys with Broodmother is going to be close to impossible to kill. 30 HP, they hit you when you hurt them, and they rise from the grave. Filling Aves with two such units sounds really nasty. Like Seekers, but with Flying Advance 8.


    And yes, maybe you'll go "my list really needs something more than just a wall of tough stuff". Well good news. You can add it. Model and paint up something else so it matches the rest of your force and include. It can all can serve Gluttony and Greed.

    But seriously, I'm not seeing how "wall of unkillable daemons" got notable worse. Try some of the multitudes of new character options (and remember all 7 gods are available, Lemures etc. serve all seven).
    the tools that once daemon pest could bring to the table have become more limited and the punch has been toned down, i now have to invest in magic or shooting if i want to deliver that. all the options you mention above like the mage blights are very situational and narrow build if they wanna be good now, yeah sure the lemures got t5 but they lost alot in the process too, same deal goes with blight flies. we once had like easy 7+ play styles within DL book, now only a few revolving around avoidance to get perfect match ups??
  • Happy Aspid wrote:

    Kapten Kluns wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    Exactly what I want to do with Flies - a unit of constantly replenishing meatsacks. Is it possible to add some sort of character to their squad without exposing him to ranged fire?
    buy great beast of prophecy. Its quite expensive tho at 210 pts
    I have used chimeras spam as WoDg BEFORE their price was lowered to 220. Puny 210p will not scare me. Am I right that it is possible to combine the upgrade on unit (brood mother for example) and Dominant upgrade for character (Like living shield) (of course without duplication)?
    cool. It doesnt add much to survivability so its not for me :).
  • Kapten Kluns wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    Kapten Kluns wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    Exactly what I want to do with Flies - a unit of constantly replenishing meatsacks. Is it possible to add some sort of character to their squad without exposing him to ranged fire?
    buy great beast of prophecy. Its quite expensive tho at 210 pts
    I have used chimeras spam as WoDg BEFORE their price was lowered to 220. Puny 210p will not scare me. Am I right that it is possible to combine the upgrade on unit (brood mother for example) and Dominant upgrade for character (Like living shield) (of course without duplication)?
    cool. It doesnt add much to survivability so its not for me :).
    Chimera for chaos lord - adds +1 hp to survivability. Had almost same cost pre patch.
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - reborn be my childhood army
    DL - side project
  • Happy Aspid wrote:

    Kapten Kluns wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    Kapten Kluns wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    Exactly what I want to do with Flies - a unit of constantly replenishing meatsacks. Is it possible to add some sort of character to their squad without exposing him to ranged fire?
    buy great beast of prophecy. Its quite expensive tho at 210 pts
    I have used chimeras spam as WoDg BEFORE their price was lowered to 220. Puny 210p will not scare me. Am I right that it is possible to combine the upgrade on unit (brood mother for example) and Dominant upgrade for character (Like living shield) (of course without duplication)?
    cool. It doesnt add much to survivability so its not for me :).
    Chimera for chaos lord - adds +1 hp to survivability. Had almost same cost pre patch.
    Eh different units I guess. Harb gains +1R, CL +1HP. Chimera is better offensive tho with 5A and 8/16 in movement
  • Stunt wrote:

    WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Stunt wrote:

    lemures(tallymen), mageblight gremlins(plaguelings) hoarders,(pest beast) bloat flies(blight flies) are all off in a worst position then the previous book, poison synergy, tackiness,are all worst off then before as well. why push a daemon player now to play poly theme/change mono if they wanna be competitive? if i wanted to play a speed daemon army, with heavy magic,shooting and zoning i would of picked SE, not DL.

    yes i agree sloth,greed,gluttony GD bring a lot more to the table then our previous GD of pest, the manifestation seem a still a bit water down too, in regards to buffing the units i mention above.

    understand its early days, still a few patches to come for DL, but being advocating Pest/ now split in to 3 sins, as its been the underdog for the past 3 years to now see its just had a dump taken on it, bit disappointing

    No i am not asking for mono god restrictions (because powers to be didn't want this) to come back but other gods/sins to be playable not just shooting/magic heavy play style army, being the only choice.
    Supporting "old mono" lists specifically was not a realistic possibility, given the absolute necessity of designing our own daemons (that could be represented with the same minis).

    Lemures, specifically, have Resilience 5. That's kinda crazy.
    Bloat Flies, specifically, have HP 5 and Acid Blood. That's not a nerf, man, not really. (They're also a fair bit cheaper!)
    Hoarders are cheaper, more customizable, and get the grind attacks over time.
    Mageblights have a really really annoying Ambush rule too, and 5+ poison is as good as ever.

    A list full of those guys is still going to be slow but nigh indestructible.

    Maybe points are off in places, but if you want to ram a wall of unkillable demons at somebody, this book looks like it offers it just fine.


    A moment on Bloat Flies: I'm really quite concerned that a maxed out unit of these guys with Broodmother is going to be close to impossible to kill. 30 HP, they hit you when you hurt them, and they rise from the grave. Filling Aves with two such units sounds really nasty. Like Seekers, but with Flying Advance 8.


    And yes, maybe you'll go "my list really needs something more than just a wall of tough stuff". Well good news. You can add it. Model and paint up something else so it matches the rest of your force and include. It can all can serve Gluttony and Greed.

    But seriously, I'm not seeing how "wall of unkillable daemons" got notable worse. Try some of the multitudes of new character options (and remember all 7 gods are available, Lemures etc. serve all seven).
    the tools that once daemon pest could bring to the table have become more limited and the punch has been toned down, i now have to invest in magic or shooting if i want to deliver that. all the options you mention above like the mage blights are very situational and narrow build if they wanna be good now, yeah sure the lemures got t5 but they lost alot in the process too, same deal goes with blight flies. we once had like easy 7+ play styles within DL book, now only a few revolving around avoidance to get perfect match ups??
    they stated demons are magical

    So i find if right to put magic in the contest to give them powers
  • Kapten Kluns wrote:

    How do you build the chimera lord? Seems to be quite focused with superior output both from rider and mount.
    It was most useless and pathetic unit I have ever used. Can't join units due towering presence. Cost 750p+. Encounters simple shooting or magic - dead. Charged by 560p Elk Lord - Dead. Charges Greybeards - Dead. The best protection I was able to achieve was 2+ 4+ Res5. Favor of Envy - for 4 dice charge 8+4d6 (double maximisation). Lance + touch of greatness = Str7 on charge, Str6 after. Preserve shield. 5 attacks from lord. 5 from chimera. Good on paper - pathetic on practice. Right now I don't remember the exact point costs. Only remember that Chosen lord base price was about 360 and chimera about 200+. Diagnosis - need constant babysitting from sorcerer or EH.
    So among all pre 0.205 builds the most effective one was sorcerer on behemoth who never failed me, not even once.
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - reborn be my childhood army
    DL - side project