9th Age as A Wandering Path - Where are we now, and where are we going?

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  • Yatagarasu wrote:

    Ghiznuk wrote:

    « Teikoku » is the name of the Empire in Star Wars, I just checked.

    On the other hand, German avoids the word « Reich » both in Star Wars (« Imperium ») and in Warhammer (« Imperium ») as well as in T9A (« Imperium »).

    But in Japanese, seriously, the « no translation » policy is much more problematic in my eyes than just the word « Empire » (for which a synonym could be surely easily found).

    Just look at the name of the different factions, for Sunna's sake !! :O

    They are named :
    – Empaia
    – Buretonia
    – Dowaafu
    – Haierufu
    – Daakuerufu
    – Wuddoerufu
    – Ooku & Goburin (no clue how the symbol « & » is meant to be pronounced, maybe « to », maybe « endu »)
    – Ouga Kingudamu
    – Wooria ofu Keiosu
    – Diimon ofu Keiosu
    – Biisuto ofu Keiosu
    – Sukeivun
    – Vampaia Kaunto
    – Tuumu Kingu
    – Rizaadoman
    – Keiosudowaafu
    – Doggusu ofu woo

    Do you find that normal ??
    You know, I'm going to games workshop later, so I guess I'll ask them what their take on it is. I've found most japanese hobbies from abroad don't change the names of iconic elements too much though - in magic I was told that this was to make it easier to play on an international scale. For instance, the word for the mechanic "infect" is changed to kansen, but an iconic card like "Swords to Plowshares" is called "So-Plo".
    I understand, but then why would the name of that same card be translated into French and German, then ?

    Anyway, debate solved, Games Workshop does not translate anything anymore, which means we have a competitive advantage over them.

    By the way, I appreciate the Polish version of the rules, where every unit name in Polish is followed by its equivalent in English, in brackets.
    We could think of doing the same in other languages, including French ??
    Unless we just add a separate sheet with all the name equivalences ?
    @Eru
    GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
    First T9A player in West Africa
  • Do you know what the Japanese word for toilet paper is? Japan a culture that basically did build entire houses out of paper?

    Well, it’s トイレットペーパー
    Toilettopēpā

    Japanese are very well used using English terms as part of their daily life.
  • tiny wrote:

    Do you know what the Japanese word for toilet paper is? Japan a culture that basically did build entire houses out of paper?

    Well, it’s トイレットペーパー
    Toilettopēpā

    Japanese are very well used using English terms as part of their daily life.

    To be fair, Japanese is very much a language made of bits of others. Kanji is 50% based on traditional Chinese, and katakana is for loanwords from English and other languages - like their word for bread - pan パン is from the French pain.

    Also my exploration into the GW shower that many players just spoke fluent English so the translation may just be unnecessary
    "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right."
    -Third Ideal of the Windrunners.
  • Incidentally, just to go back to my original question for a moment.

    So for a long time I’ve felt that people see T9A to have a veneer of elitism. Myself and @Tyranno have had several people at our lgs mention being interested in the premise, but not interested an “elitist” game or being put off by changes in the rules.

    Has anyone else encountered players whose general attitude to 9th age is “I would try it, but..”?
    "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right."
    -Third Ideal of the Windrunners.
  • Yatagarasu wrote:

    To be fair, Japanese is very much a language made of bits of others. Kanji is 50% based on traditional Chinese, and katakana is for loanwords from English and other languages - like their word for bread - pan パン is from the French pain.

    Also my exploration into the GW shower that many players just spoke fluent English so the translation may just be unnecessary
    English is also full of loanwords from French.
    Just like both French and English are full of loanwords from Greek regarding specialized vocabulary.
    Chinese words in Japanese (and in Vietnamese, and in Korean) play the same role as Greek words in French and English.
    For example, Japanese university is « Daigaku », « Daihaeg » in Korean and « Ðại học » in Vietnamese.
    So you could say it's a similar story to that of the word « lycée » in French.

    But the fact that English is full of loanwords from French (such as the word « fact » in this phrase, whose native equivalent would be « deed ») does not mean that English players would be OK getting the game in French.

    Also, notice that Chinese loanwords in Japanese where borrowed from Old Chinese, not Modern Chinese. That's why you see a striking similarity between the three above-mentioned words in Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese, whereas the Modern Chinese word is « Daxué » [pron. « Tàshwé »]. Which means those three Chinese-influenced languages were a lot more conservative in their loanwords than the original language itself. That means a Japanese-speaker would potentially have an easier time recognizing the same word in Vietnamese than in Chinese. (provided it is not written in ideograms, of course, which makes it easier)
    — Just in the same way that many Greek-derived words in English and French are today wildly different than their current counterpart in Modern Greek.

    Also, to have a similar vocabulary does not mean that the grammar is the same. When I mention a « juice bottle » in English, the words are French-derived, but the word order is different. My Ivorian friends who don't have any knowledge of English would think that we are trying to get juice out of grounding the bottle (« jus de bouteille »).

    Likewise with Japanese.

    Also, the fact that many people speak fluent English does not mean everyone speaks it. I met many Japanese people in my life whose English is really bad. (and even so, I find that — IF the translation is well done —, people generally enjoy more reading something written in their own language, as it requires less mental effort).
    To say « Japanese people are OK playing in English because many of them speak fluent English » is the same as saying « Spanish people are OK playing in English » or « French people are OK playing in English ». That would mean « You don't get to play as long as you're not fluent ».
    That would just make the game even more elitist in the end.

    Which kind of brings us back to the question.
    GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
    First T9A player in West Africa
  • Yatagarasu wrote:

    Incidentally, just to go back to my original question for a moment.

    So for a long time I’ve felt that people see T9A to have a veneer of elitism. Myself and @Tyranno have had several people at our lgs mention being interested in the premise, but not interested an “elitist” game or being put off by changes in the rules.

    Has anyone else encountered players whose general attitude to 9th age is “I would try it, but..”?
    I am sick and tired of being labeled as an "Elitist". In addition, other insults were hurled my way as being consumed by "Painting Arrogance" and not having a life because of that. I don´t care which tabletop game you play but when you don´t manage to get some paint on your plastic dudes/dudettes in a reasonable amount of time, I will tell you this straight to the face: "Maybe tabletop wargaming is the wrong hobby for you. Try MtG instead. Why? Well, because you are lazy as ****!"

    Tabletop gamers should stop being self-conscious about their hobby and act in a more confident way. Yes, our hobby is not for everyone and I am glad that that is the case. It takes dedication and effort to get into the hobby and some scrubs may think it is as easy as installing a video game. Just to be frank, it is not! Even video games have become more and more accessible to the general populace just to earn that extra buck.

    But I digress. Let´s shine a light on the rules department. People who like AoS and those four pages of rules are simply not in our target group. If some of these people want to try something different like for example 9th Age, they are welcome to stay. But they should not expect that the devs provide a watered down version of the game just for them because they can´t be bothered to read a rulebook instead of a leaflet.

    What is 9th Age for me personally? It´s a way to continue playing WHFB in a custom campaign which has it´s roots in the Old World without the hindrance of a sales-driven ruleset. For this endeavour I use the Version 1.3.4 (27. 01.2017). As some posters already wrote, the vast majority of players are vets of WHFB who long for a mass battle game. There is nothing wrong with that and if new blood find it difficult to get their head into the game it is their fault and not ours. Heck, I spent the last year on a more or less regular basis in a hobby centre of my home town to learn what kind of tabletop game I could "sell" to my audience. My conclusion is as follows: The guys which I met were either lazy as hell or more of a miser than Ebenezer Scrooge. Just to give you an example here:

    I did a demo for Freebooter´s Fate (Fantasy Pirate theme) with painted models and fitting terrain for the setting. They liked it a lot and they were not lying about this fact. But it was still an expensive game to them. How many models are required per side to have a good time? Just four. Yes, I am not kidding. Four models are required to have a very nice game with a Caribbean flair. How am I supposed to sell them a game like 9th Age? It´s impossible. A month later I did a demo with Rumbleslam (Fantasy Wrestling theme). How many models are required for this one? One bloody model. What did my audience say? Do I really have to tell you? Of course, this game was too expensive as well! Who would have guessed that?!

    I am now changing the subject and will tell you about my experiences with the "new blood" and their tolerance of rules in a board game environment. This was a different group and I presented the ZOMBIES!!! board game which is a favourite game of mine. There is no other game on the market where you can put a bullet between the eyes of your zombiefied neighbour and get away with it. Are the rules complex? It´s a leaflet of about four to six pages. In a nutshell: It´s easier to memorize than to steal a lollipop from a child. I acted only as a rules overseer as in all of my demo games and let the noobs duke it out. How many of them were present? Approx. ten. What happened after Round 3? Half of them quitted the game because the rules were too difficult to grasp. How am I supposed to sell them a game which requires reading a RULEBOOK?!

    I have stated this before in another thread and it might be a harsh truth and not a lot people want to hear it but in my experience so far the younger generation has either difficulties or are unwilling of grasping even rudimentary rules. This might be a side effect of game companies like GW of dumbing down rulesets to lure in more people than your average geek. As a consequence of this, I will spend considerable less amount of my time doing demo games.
  • I think it's a tendency you find also in video games.
    We used to have fine games where you had to figure out many things by yourself, find clues, etc. and there was no internet to give you the solution.
    I remained stuck for months in Legend of Zelda : Link's Awakening, until we find the solution one day discussing it with the other kids at school.
    And remember stuff such as Elder Scrolls II : Daggerfall ? The world was just so vast, I never really understood what the scenario was. I just spent months killing random monsters in random dungeons, not really knowing what for (I was like 500 km away from the main campain arch), but I was still levelling up and getting more powerful items, and that became an end in itself.

    Today there is usually a little arrow pointing you the way to the next clue.
    And rules are taught to you as you go along.
    GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
    First T9A player in West Africa
  • elitist?

    Thats new, it probably stems from the tournament atmosphere people associate with us.

    Our game is kinda the opposite of elitist. Free rules, miniature agnostic, easily accessible web presence.

    Were just very different, and so many dont know how to handle that!

    Can you find out more in depth how they feel @Yatagarasu ?

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    Quick Starter Team

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  • kisanis wrote:

    Thats new, it probably stems from the tournament atmosphere people associate with us.

    Our game is kinda the opposite of elitist. Free rules, miniature agnostic, easily accessible web

    Making a game free actually makes it more elitist in some ways.

    Everyone in the developed world has enough money to pay €30-€50 for their army book and rules book. And in any case the cost in terms of time to play and get an an army absolutely dwarfs this amount.

    But when the system is free, it becomes unresponsive to what new and potential players want.

    Allowing people to pay for something gives them (the silent majority) a voice.

    Right now if you consider a person who is right at the outside of T9A - maybe sees the game once, has some Warhammer figures - they have the least influence even considered as a whole.

    In a company it's the opposite. Potential new customers have the *most* influence!

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Auto2 ().

  • Well.
    People are also free to just come and tell how they feel here.

    Most companies who see their money drop need to pay extra gold to conduct market research and so on.

    Whereas we are always available.
    Not only talking about this forum but also the many FB pages, etc. which are manned by people directly attached to the project.
    GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
    First T9A player in West Africa
  • Ghiznuk wrote:

    Well.
    People are also free to just come and tell how they feel here.
    Most of T9A's potential user base probably doesn't even know that we exist, and those who do have busy lives and no particular reason to take any particular action.

    A company that made money out of new customers would find ways to reach out to them, get them excited, make things that are appealing to them, etc.

    If I were god of T9A I would do anything that is possible to add a commercial incentive to the game. Previous discussions have revealed that the reason this cannot happen is that T9A's key volunteers feel like their volunteer labor would be devalued if someone made money off of it, so they want to ban any commercialisation of the core game (so you can't sell a rulebook at a profit).

    I tried to explain to them that this was extremely stupid... like if all the linux devs put linux under a license where you couldn't use it in a business setting ... but because I am not high-up in the organisation it had no effect.

    T9A is unfortunately an elitist organisation run by tournament players. At some point I hope we can fix this. But what can you do? Just enjoy what you have while it lasts!
  • To be honest T9A should probably collaborate with a company to release some basic pre-painted stuff as well. Starter set: Orcs vs Empire, simplified rules, only basic units and playable out of the box. You buy one box you get everything. Then sell that in game stores, Amazon, etc, market it and push more advanced stuff as the next level. People can buy that for little Jonny as a Christmas present and that's how we continue the hobby into the future.
  • Ghiznuk wrote:

    I don't get you.
    Who said you can't sell the rulebook for profit ? People already do it, even on Amazon.
    As far as I am aware you cannot legally sell T9A at a profit. What is currently being sold on Amazon is being sold with no margin, or at least very little.

    For it to make commercial sense you would need an organisation that gained the right to sell T9A books at a profit and had the right incentives (i.e. to do things like marketing) and to fund further development of the game - such as a starter set.

    And of course if you have a company that's selling books for €30 and ploughing the profit into new products, marketing etc then you can't simultaneously let someone sell it for €10, because the €10 version will eat up the whole market, customers save €20 now but then the game has no future because no-one is marketing it, developing new products etc (and this is actually bad in the long run for existing customers).
  • Auto2 wrote:

    kisanis wrote:

    Thats new, it probably stems from the tournament atmosphere people associate with us.

    Our game is kinda the opposite of elitist. Free rules, miniature agnostic, easily accessible web
    Making a game free actually makes it more elitist in some ways.

    Everyone in the developed world has enough money to pay €30-€50 for their army book and rules book. And in any case the cost in terms of time to play and get an an army absolutely dwarfs this amount.

    But when the system is free, it becomes unresponsive to what new and potential players want.

    Allowing people to pay for something gives them (the silent majority) a voice.

    Right now if you consider a person who is right at the outside of T9A - maybe sees the game once, has some Warhammer figures - they have the least influence even considered as a whole.

    In a company it's the opposite. Potential new customers have the *most* influence!
    Uh no they don't. What utopia are you living in?
  • @Auto2 I appreciate your willingness to help but you state many inaccurate assumptions.

    Auto2 wrote:

    A company that made money out of new customers would find ways to reach out to them, get them excited, make things that are appealing to them, etc.
    The very reason T9A exists is because we don't want new customers at the expense of old ones. GW organizes product obsolescence. We organize long term customer care.

    Auto2 wrote:

    so you can't sell a rulebook at a profit...
    I tried to explain to them that this was extremely stupid...
    Misunderstanding.
    T9A will keep forever pdf downloadable for free.
    It does not prevent companies to sell same rules printed on hard copies for huge profits if they can.

    Auto2 wrote:

    T9A is unfortunately an elitist organisation run by tournament players.
    Misunderstanding.
    Goal is to become wider, but that is in the long run.
    Management includes tourney players, but not limited to them - as I personally prove.

    Auto2 wrote:

    To be honest T9A should probably collaborate with a company to release some basic pre-painted stuff as well.
    We do. Our fault it is not ready: legendary rulebook not even released yet.

    Auto2 wrote:

    1. As far as I am aware you cannot legally sell T9A at a profit. What is currently being sold on Amazon is being sold with no margin, or at least very little.
    2. For it to make commercial sense you would need an organisation that gained the right to sell T9A books at a profit and had the right incentives (i.e. to do things like marketing) and to fund further development of the game - such as a starter set.

    3. And of course if you have a company that's selling books for €30 and ploughing the profit into new products, marketing etc then you can't simultaneously let someone sell it for €10, because the €10 version will eat up the whole market, customers save €20 now but then the game has no future because no-one is marketing it, developing new products etc (and this is actually bad in the long run for existing customers).
    1. Wrong. They can. Amazon sales is kept no profit by sole decision of the volunteer who undertakes that.
    2. They can. Some are interested.
    3. Sorry but how do you define the interest of the customer?

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  • MASTERWIRED wrote:

    they don't. What utopia are you living in?
    If you don't have €50 to spend then you won't be able to afford to make an army. Or go to a venue to play regularly.

    Furthermore, look at the price of other forms of entertainment such as video games. You pay €300+ for the hardware and at least €50 for a mainstream AAA game like Battlefield. That's €350 minimum. And you can double that for a PC.


    Calisson wrote:

    They can. Some are interested
    Well all we can do is wait and see then.


    Calisson wrote:

    Wrong. They can. Amazon sales is kept no profit by sole decision of the volunteer who undertakes that.
    Thanks for correcting this! I obviously had the wrong idea from previous discussions.

    However the right to sell something for €30 is worthless if someone else is selling it for €10.

    Calisson wrote:

    Our fault it is not ready: legendary rulebook not even released yet.
    Yes that's true, but let's talk about the rulebook that we do currently have.

    By selling it for dirt cheap on Amazon we have made it so that (for example) a local game store has no reason to stock it. IMO that's a mistake. If it was a bit more expensive on Amazon (€30 say) then we could ship it to game stores for €10 and tell them they can sell it for €35 in exchange for them physically displaying it in their store.

    I hope that we won't make the same mistake when the legendary rulebook comes out, and when WDG and other FABs are considered finished in terms of rules.
  • Auto2 wrote:

    That's great but I think we have overcorrected.
    WE HAVE NO MARKETING. OUR PRODUCTS ARE NOT IN STORES. It's end times + nearly 4 years.
    I am sure the project would welcome your help on these issues if you are willing to volunteer :)
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

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