Future DH wishlist

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  • The only time I’ve found rune of resolve useful is if I want to move side ways or backwards. Apart from that never really found much for it. I think in general DH armies are too small to worry about swinging a flank around which is where it would shine.

    That and the re-roll to hits I never take anymore. I’d rather take grudges to ensure hatred than risk a spell on it.
  • I think the DH Magic is just where it should be power- and performancewise, but the biggest issue it has is that its possibly quite boring in how straightforward it is. It would be nice to introduce more elements that make it more complex or exciting to use, really! Like...

    Battle Rune of uh... Battle? (This wasn't my idea, but I can't remember whose it was)
    Target friendly Dwarf unit gains "Yer Comin' With Me...!" for a turn.

    Talisman Rune of Shaping
    If a Bound Spell is dispelled in this phase, the next Bound Spell receives a +1/+1 bonus to +1 (this effect stacks).

    Talisman Rune of Binding (Universal, Permanent)
    One Use Only. Target two units- for the rest of the game, whenever one is the target of a successful spell, the other unit count as an additional target.

    Talisman Rune of Spellbreaking
    If the wielder is within 18" of a wizard, gain +1 to Dispels

    Definitely think a rework would have room for Master (Dominant) Runes as well, or Runes with different levels- just like the Daemon book has. There never was much opportunity before for 'em, sadly!
  • @Squigkikka all those ideas look really nice!

    I would also add to them mount for Runic Smith. Something between Shieldbearers and War Throne - 40x40. Runic Forge. Maybe with Channel(1) and 1 Battle Rune (hard-fixed). With additional rules like (just possibilities):
    * extending spell range for RS mounted
    * permanent holdstone (already mentioned by me) - unit with this mount is always affected by Holdstone and all units in same combat cannot Pursuit nor Overrun. This would be nice fluffy-wise. Dwarfs will always protect Runic Forge.
  • WarX wrote:

    @Squigkikka all those ideas look really nice!

    I would also add to them mount for Runic Smith. Something between Shieldbearers and War Throne - 40x40. Runic Forge. Maybe with Channel(1) and 1 Battle Rune (hard-fixed). With additional rules like (just possibilities):
    * extending spell range for RS mounted
    * permanent holdstone (already mentioned by me) - unit with this mount is always affected by Holdstone and all units in same combat cannot Pursuit nor Overrun. This would be nice fluffy-wise. Dwarfs will always protect Runic Forge.
    and how it is supposed to be sifferent from anvil ?
  • Here goes my silly ideas for Anvil (if we are wishlisting):


    Was a bit tinkering with a following "upgrade" concepts for Anvil of Power to make it little bit fit it's name/description And maybe and some cool/interesting gameplay around it. Only one of them could be taken in order to upgrade anvil and make it bigger nuisance for opponents (interesting idea would be if they costed the same and could be chosen at battle start but that's completely different topic).


    A) Ancestral Lo(a)destone (a.k.a. Dwarf Doomsday Device)
    With every successfully casted spell(by enemy !) (bound might not count) anvil accumulates a token. After accumulating xx tokens anvil is allowed to cast special spell "Doom of Old World" (obviously name is to be changed, but I like internal pun of it ;P), once casted all accumulated tokens are used (also surplus).

    "Doom of Old World"
    It's casted automaticly (or with bounded use of dices?) with casting level of yy (14 for start? it shouldn't be that easy to dispell). DH player chooses point on table within 36" and every enemy unit in zz range (maybe combine it with spend tokens?) receives some terrible terrible damage (obviously not sure what exact numeral values should be here).

    Variations:
    Maybe there should be some "power levels" of the number of tokens, resulting in more powerful versions of "Doom of Old World" being possible to cast but for a price of always losing all accumulated tokens.

    Comments:
    This could be a different approach to "counter magic". It would not directly affect enemy casting/magic power, heck even encourage them to cast as many spells they can It could be dwarf "doomsday device" (quite fitting to name "Anvil of Doom Power") which is actually powered by enemies use of magic. Token requirement should be high enough to not be able to cast "Doom of Old World" more then mayby 1 or twice per battle (unless enemy is really allowed to successfully cast 3-4 spells on every of his turns). This could introduce interesting dynamic of indirectly punsihing enemy for spamming magic, while giving him/her option and target for removing threat ("Deamoclese sword" hanging over them). This also would give some (very limited) offensive power to mighty Anvil of Power

    AA) Mayby instead of gaining token every time enemy successfully casts a spell, the Anvil should give something like -3 to cast spells (for enemy) and then gain a token for every FAILED attempt to cast (by enemy) ?


    B) Ancestral Grounding Stone

    Anvil gets Magic Resistance(2) (in AoE?). DH player gets special Veil card which he can use, it also results in opponent using same Veil card in following magic phase (similar to Undying Dynasties mechanic on their special thing). This Magic Resistance could also be done "affects every caster in xx" range (while range should be mid one requiring forwad deployment of anvil if wished to be effective). This again could force some interesting gameplay of forcing DH player to deploy Anvil forward and then try to defend it (with Vanguard banner, vanguard units etc.) while "forcing" enemy to kill Anvil if he/she hopes of having "decent" chances of casting spells. Obviously exact level of Magic Resistance could be adjusted properly (can't say if level 2 is punishing enough to "force" enemy into killing Anvil but seems as good start). Additionally DH player would get:

    Veil card:
    Both players receive:
    3 Magic Dice
    2 Dispel Dice
    Active player:
    1 Veil Token
    At the end of the turn all unused/stored Veil tokens are lost.

    Comment: This veil card is designed to show off “calming” properties of Anvil as great “grounding” tool. It strengthens the Veil, thus allowing only minimal use of magic for a cost of limited magic phase for DH too. It could be used in crucial turn to limit the amount of spells which can be casted by the enemy (liming them to probably 1-2). It will also probably only allowing DH player to cast 1 bounded spell (unless he stored some tokens - 2 basic bound spells) which would probably still be dispelled by enemy.
  • Spellcaster/heroes from other armies have option or equipment that impact magic phase (+1 bonus for casting spell, +1 vell token, or even 2:1 vell token translation, see lezard for example).

    What about option/equipment for runic smith only that allow dwarf (or runic smith only) to cast bound spell with one dice ?
    - Increase the spam but effect are the same as now so I'm pretty sure it wasn't so broken
    - If restricted to runic smith, anvil was a second option for cheaper bound spell but 2 dice casting, same for banner
    - Maybee all dice gain with this could be used for resonnance combo ? :)

    If it's to powerful, go for 4/7 bound spell and/or pass all bound spell 2 of a kind in army ?
  • tumti_rumti wrote:

    Squigkikka wrote:

    Talisman Rune of Binding (Universal, Permanent)
    One Use Only. Target two units- for the rest of the game, whenever one is the target of a successful spell, the other unit count as an additional target.
    So get hit by a Fireball and your friendlies also get hit by a Fireball for free ?;P
    Note that the Rune is universal! Put it on 2 friends, 1 friend/1 enemy (or 2 enemy but that seems silly).

    It's probably OP as heck though, but I quite like the idea.
  • Firthunands91 wrote:

    @Fnarrr @Squigkikka was a bound spell similar to word of iron from alchemy ever seen as a possibility? For me it fits them more than resolve, or avoiding hits by being gleamy guys (but losing this would hurt seekers a lot).
    I did a bunch of math on that one, and it looked really problematic.
    Basically, +1 armour isn't good enough compared to -1 to hit or -1 to wound.
    +2 armour is too good compared to them.
    We briefly discussed a "mixed" offensive/defensive augment (+1 armour and +1 ap I believe) @Squigkikka but we ended up rejecting it in favour of more exciting things.
  • Squigkikka wrote:

    Note that the Rune is universal! Put it on 2 friends, 1 friend/1 enemy (or 2 enemy but that seems silly).

    It's probably OP as heck though, but I quite like the idea.
    "you & I forever and ever and ever...."

    Well I've missed that. In such case is extremaly funny and troll item (we share all the buffs you set, and all damage you cause against me).


    Also would it be possible to have Runic Banner of Shielding work against magic missles ?
  • Fnarrr wrote:

    Basically, +1 armour isn't good enough compared to -1 to hit or -1 to wound.
    +2 armour is too good compared to them.
    And why is there a spell in alchemy then that does exactly the same? Plus makes an oponents unit flamable.

    That is the reason I think dwarfen magic is garbage. On one hand each casting dice is worth only 2,5-2,66 value while normal magic is worth 3,5 value. and in addition dwarfen spells are weaker than normal magic spells. And to get a reliable magic phase you need to invest about the same as an oponent taking a master wizard including full magic gear.
  • @tumti_rumti
    I love your proposal and the mechanics is very interesting although it seems complicated.
    I would directly do that for every enemy spell cast successfully without dissipating makes that at the end of the enemy magic phase, if the anvil is still on the table, lightning strikes. The lightning is an automatic S6 hit.

    I'm sorry, but I don't understand proposal B very well.
  • Firthunands91 wrote:

    And what about a mechanic to do something with the veil tokens and magic dice if we go no magic? Was that discussed or viewed as a possibility? @Squigkikka @Fnarrr? Maybe something like a runesmith upgrade that if he goes no magic and pays for it, he can convert x to dispel? Or another better thing?
    I mean, this was on the table and heavily discussed, and the outcome was the Rune of Revocation. It does pretty much what you describe!
  • But revocation still forces you to cast bound spells, and then you have to play magic and invest a lot on it. And anyways, a runic smtih can only have one of those, so easy dispelled. I'm talking about going 0 magic spells but make something out of the dices so it's not such a high waste. And also I think it fits antimagic theme.

    Converting maybe 3-4 magic dice for 1 dispel dice would be way better, and you'd only have to invest the price of a single runic Smith + the upgrade.
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  • Firthunands91 wrote:

    But revocation still forces you to cast bound spells, and then you have to play magic and invest a lot on it. And anyways, a runic smtih can only have one of those, so easy dispelled. I'm talking about going 0 magic spells but make something out of the dices so it's not such a high waste. And also I think it fits antimagic theme.

    Converting maybe 3-4 magic dice for 1 dispel dice would be way better, and you'd only have to invest the price of a single runic Smith + the upgrade.
    So maybe each Runic Smith should be able to keep single dice for dispel purposes? Maybe converting 3:1 or 2:1. This will improve situation when Anvil is killed and you have almost no chance to cast spells.

    You can choose (and your opponent): cast some spells and not pass dice (if opponent let's first spell it is better to keep dice) or just take your dices with you, to screw his magic phase ;)
  • That stuff is already present though, its the design driver behind Rune of Harnessing.

    I know its not exactly the same mechanic that you are describing, but the overall effect is the same. I mean, considering 1 casting dice > 1 dispell dice, the effect of removing 1 die from opponents is better than adding 1 dispel die to your pool.
    Beyond this, we are just talking about magnitude (like, how many veils/dice you're removing).


    Its useful conversations to be had regarding dispelling for sure. My personal belief is that we already have sufficient anti-magic tools, because there is a long-ish but finite list of steps in casting magic, and we have at least 1 tool to interfere with most of them:

    Step (DH antimagic tool)

    1) generating magic resources (rune of harnessing)
    2) selecting spell to cast (rune of devouring)
    3) meeting casting value (HooM / MR)
    4) dispelling spell (MR / rune of denial)
    5) post-cast spell mitigation (rune of grounding)

    Additionally, we have rune of revocation as a spell, which is active interference of a slightly different type (as it can be in turn mitigated by the opponent) that is generally aimed at stage 5 as it removes the second half of the duration of augments/hexes; but has a secondary effect (preventing next cast) which is aimed at stage 4 and occasionally 2 when it locks out certain spells completely (if they are for example auras and you put it on the enemy caster, its functional vs VC raises for example).

    I would say realistically there are two types of tool for each step: a permanent one, and a one-use only one.

    This means between our AWSRs, innate abilities, and runic selection, there are up to 10 effects that can be present. That is really way too many, as realistically they all aim at the same thing (shutting down magic) despite taking different paths to it.

    The important thing when we talk about designing new solutions is to determine whether a tool is absent, or if its present but widely considered not fit for purpose. And even when faced with 10 good designs, compromises will have to be made, as that is just way too many antimagic tools who take up design space at the expense of other things.

    Current state as I see it, with some conceptual examples (which are slapdash and ofc likely not great designs)

    StepPermanent Tool (a)One-use Tool (b)
    1) Generating Magic ResourcesRune of HarnessingN/A (this would be something along the lines of removing veil tokens from opponent's pool - strong version after they channel, weaker version before they do so so only drains the card tokens)
    2) Selecting Spell to CastN/A (this would likely be too powerful, as it would be an always-on binding scroll)Rune of Devouring
    3) Meeting Casting ValueHooM & MRN/A (this can be a One Use rune that increases the HooM effect to +3 for a phase)
    4) DispellingN/A (this is your basic +X to dispell bonus, generally rare/nonexistent in-game nowdays)Rune of Denial
    5) Post-Spell Cast MitigationN/A (this varies depending on what you are mitigating. It can be something complex, like an item that causes augments/hexes to only last during caster's turn, or simple like extending shielding banner's effect to magic)Rune of Grounding




    I think the big success in the current design is that it hits every step between 1 and 5 between our AWSR and 4 slots, with a selection of 1a,2b,3a,4b,5b. We can have constructive discussions if the community feels those tools are not fit for purpose.

    Fans of 1b,2a,3b,4a and 5b could feel hard done by. I think 2a (locking out spells from opponents) is likely a dead end as the effect is crazy powerful. I think 5a would likely end up unsatisfactory because spells are rather varied and this won't hit all of them post-resolution (this is somewhat an issue with Grounding too).

    What you end up with is design slots for 1b, 3b and 4a. But its worth noting that you don't really want more than 4-5 dispelling items, so introducing anything there likely means dropping one of the existing areas.
  • tumti_rumti wrote:

    Squigkikka wrote:

    Note that the Rune is universal! Put it on 2 friends, 1 friend/1 enemy (or 2 enemy but that seems silly).

    It's probably OP as heck though, but I quite like the idea.
    "you & I forever and ever and ever...."
    Well I've missed that. In such case is extremaly funny and troll item (we share all the buffs you set, and all damage you cause against me).


    Also would it be possible to have Runic Banner of Shielding work against magic missles ?
    I stopped taking banner of shielding as the 6” comes from the actual bearer within the unit. I appreciate this is to stop a strung out line of bodyguard dwarves giving out a army wide 5++ v shooting but it struggle to see the benefit of that.

    @Fnarrr Rune of Harnessing is nice but hard to balance points wise. In some games it’s worth 12 veils a game then in others none. It’s a bit of a problem as 55 points is a lot not to use in quite a few games but then very cheaper for stopping 12 tokens a game. I don’t really like the “Rune Smith only” restriction as at that point may as well just take magic and revocation as the utility is much better for 5 points more (I accept you then add an anvil too).