DL Fab Feedback from other comunities: WDG point of view

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  • DL Fab Feedback from other comunities: WDG point of view

    Hi everyone,


    We have been asked to gather opinions from the community on the new DL book.


    So how have you all found your games against the new DL going?


    Is it fun to play against? Are there any overly weak or strong units/combos or whatever?


    Looking for both general impressions and from a WDG specific view point.

    Playtester

    DL-Comunity Support

    Master of the Coins

  • Had several games, including tournament games against DL.

    In EVERY game i faced Double Omen of Savar (both played as Wizard master), put either both in one unit of lemures or each one in a unit of lemures each.
    So Omens and lemures as bunker seems to be the only effectice choices atm.

    The rest of the list varied a bit, but not to much. Mostly the core of the lists were sloth based and contained one or two units of furies.
    Then you had some clawed fiends or imps here and some crusher cavalry and hellhounds there.

    But always lemures, lemures and Double Omen.

    It was to play in most games. Though the hellhounds seem waaaaay to cheap for what they do. Maybe give them 4+ aegis but raise them to 250 points at least.
  • I've played about 3-4 now. I think it is unwise to ask opinions from warriors players ATM as we are in such a sorry state of affairs as a balanced book. I'm not a great player but I got rolled so badly by brazened beasts. A 400 PT 3 model unit auto broke 30gw warriors and killed aacharging forsaken one. Mounts are ridiculous with battle focus and red fury or whatever.

    That's let alone dealing with flanking courtesans and mobile organ guns with r5 core lel and omens....jeebus literally one shots all our characters if it doesn't roll double 1's.

    100% jealous of every single manifestation that has 0 draw backs. Massive kick in the gut. Like most matchups due to asaw we don't have very many options against very many matchups unfortunately.
  • Brazen beasts killing a charging forsaken one? How that?
    In my games the forsaken one even survived a charge from brazen beasts and then grinded them down in the following turns.

    Still some units are ridicoulus for their price. Most anoying i find the shooting warplatform.
    3 extra shots for each veil token? Hello.....? Its not that veil tokens are so rare in a DL army.

    Had a really anoying game on a tournament with the DL Player just standing behind in a corner, just throwing out comets and divination missiles every turn by the omens, and then killed the rest with the ridicoulus shooting war platform.
  • Exalted Champion wrote:

    Brazen beasts killing a charging forsaken one? How that?
    In my games the forsaken one even survived a charge from brazen beasts and then grinded them down in the following turns.

    Still some units are ridicoulus for their price. Most anoying i find the shooting warplatform.
    3 extra shots for each veil token? Hello.....? Its not that veil tokens are so rare in a DL army.
    First game I vsed DL that organ gun thing rips open and does 29 strong 4 ap2 hits on my eh lol is all i could say
  • Today have played my first two games as DL (never played them before at all). Had a lot of fun. While I can see that DL definetly struggling against armor, especially against heavy one, I unfortunatelly see too much Ideas realised in new DL, that I always wanted for WODG. Unlike my experience with WODG, playing DL (even with very limited miniatures range) feels very rewarding when you do everything right.
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - reborn be my childhood army
    DL - side project
  • Happy Aspid wrote:

    Today have played my first two games as DL (never played them before at all). Had a lot of fun. While I can see that DL definetly struggling against armor, especially against heavy one, I unfortunatelly see too much Ideas realised in new DL, that I always wanted for WODG. Unlike my experience with WODG, playing DL (even with very limited miniatures range) feels very rewarding when you do everything right.
    Can you elaborate what kind of issues you have with armoured targets?

    I mean you have hounds, brazen beasts, clawed fiends, omens and more stuff like divination/thaumaturgy.

    I never had the feeling in all my games, that my opponent was struggling due to armour.
  • Exalted Champion wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    Today have played my first two games as DL (never played them before at all). Had a lot of fun. While I can see that DL definetly struggling against armor, especially against heavy one, I unfortunatelly see too much Ideas realised in new DL, that I always wanted for WODG. Unlike my experience with WODG, playing DL (even with very limited miniatures range) feels very rewarding when you do everything right.
    Can you elaborate what kind of issues you have with armoured targets?
    I mean you have hounds, brazen beasts, clawed fiends, omens and more stuff like divination/thaumaturgy.

    I never had the feeling in all my games, that my opponent was struggling due to armour.
    Very big brick of Iron orks. Omen is good, like some other units, but if you don't have enough of them - you can only avoid such menace. When most of your R&F troops have to deal with 3+ or 4+ and you have no source of ap in melee - you need to pick the fights very well. Basically - i am not saying that DL have no ways to deal with high armor, but that they have a very limited access to high armorpiercing.
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - reborn be my childhood army
    DL - side project
  • WDG vs DL:
    I can’t say it wasn’t interesting cause for me it’s always better to get familiar with the new book on the table, rather that studying papers for hours.
    So for sure I could avoid some mistakes if I better knew all the rules and synergies and so far I am on the losing side with daemons. And please don’t mind me for comparisons to wdg stuff.

    Feedback:

    1. The first impression was: a lot of units on the table for 4500 pts, that was surprise cause I perceived daemons more like elite but twisted army with not THAT many tactical things/units.
    2. The army is very active in all phases. All. Which was another surprise because in pre-release leaks DL should dominate magic phase (yeah, they definitely do!) and be less “attractive” in others but it’s not like that.
    3. Specific units which I faced with:

    • Hellhounds: ridiculously strong as for 155 pts. Each battle I faced 2 units. DL generals are telling “funny” stories of what their 155 pts doggies has already eaten. Crying mode on: do you guys remember the first chimera for 265 (!) pts, now reduced to 220 pts and still far far away to be taken without buff or something. For me such a bugs like crazy overpriced chimera (or FDE) and underprized hellhounds shouldn’t take place. Beta, alpha, gamma versions of books, whatever, first look on such units and you know after 4 seconds: trash or must to have.
    • Brazen Beasts: congrats. to designers. Amazing job done. That is an essence of shock-attach heavy cavalry. 468 pts for a unit of 4 with M for astonishing power on charge. Again, sorry for the comparison but that is exactly how on rooster level me might get bitten = our 3 CK with M and pride = 464 pts. What would you prefer?
    • Furies: 150 pts for hard target, fearless, supernal, 10”/20” fly with an option of 2 pts/model to get S6 on charge. Of course that is not hellhound abnormality level but again I have 5 flayers in my mind for 140 pts in wdg.
    • Hope Harvester: volley (may be boosted very nicely) aether battery hitting 3+ with AP1 with an option to hide in unit. That things + positive wound from spear of infinity killed my EH in two turns. The same as above – too much shy as for 260 pts. Honestly I don’t get why our hellmaw got so low operative stats vs hope harvester when you have a look on this two kind of supportive units. Basic pts for hellmaw is 280 pts and it is much weaker vs H.H.: dis. 5 vs 7 (very important for march test purposes), off/deff 3 vs 4, imo better 4A S6 ap3 than 5A S5 ap2 + 50x100mm large beast vs gigantic contract. Wrr.
    • Omen of Savar: I faced master with tricky hatred and res6, divination and probably something else. What can I say, cheaper version of EH who fights as crazy and casts spell as boosted master with an option to hide in lemures or jump off from them by 18”. Di9..
    • Titanslayer Chariot – trash.
    • Sirens with evo harbinger – strider, hard target, aegis5+, buffing with manifest. + evo, vanguard, fast a light = very cool.
    • Gremlins – interesting unit if you have spare 175 pts. Did not work against me.

    I hope it would be helpful.
  • Exalted Champion wrote:

    For example the manifestation that reduces AP, for each veil token you spend.
    That thing is a pain...I have a friend that uses that always with his Sugulag... he always have a 4+ aegis and then his 5+ aegis... T7 DS8...
    I still have been uncapable to make him more than one wound per game.
    Xhoka Lizards player - Spain

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  • dragonravioli wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    I unfortunatelly see too much Ideas realised in new DL, that I always wanted for WODG.
    Could you give me some?
    If you look at my posts in WODG forums you will find more. here is most obvious ones:

    Rerolls if you loosing battle (bronze backbone)
    Ability to lower enemy AP - Abyssal armor.
    Very high level of customisation on monsters.
    Non standard way of shooting during magic phase - spear of infinity, when the enemy has spent all his dispelling dice = bold thrower with Aim (3+)
    No REDUNDANT entries, that have no other purpose, other than to exist.


    All this ideas was rejected throughout the last year either because ASAW forbids, or complexity budget forbids, or invisible upgrades are forbidden and tonns of other reasons.
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - reborn be my childhood army
    DL - side project
  • Small contribution : I faced a friend trying the new DL for the first time.

    Context : He never really played demons before, but what he likes in the game is powerful magic and shooting, he was playing a list that apparently is widely played, that he tailored a bit to be more shooty and magic oriented. And it was my 1st game against a demon.

    His list approximately was : 2 omen of savar, 2 big pack of lemures ? (the infantry guys with parry, res 5 and aegis ), 4 of the shock monstrous cavalry that get to str 6 in charge and + 2 attacks, 6 of the 4hp unkillable things that reduce the number of attack by one and the organ gun for which you can add hits with veil token, and 2 x 5 harpies as chaff

    I would say it was fun for him to play, it really felt his magic phase was super fun, multiple blasts but really not that much for me ... I tried to start in a corner and heavily push on his weakest flank but everything was ripped to pieces : in two shooting + magic phase : lost 2 warrior chariot, 7hp on FDA, 2 chosen Knight and half ... his unkillbale brick managed to paralyse my characters on dark chariot thanks to armywide swiftstride. I was forced to dispel the 1d6 Hp on my forsaken one cause it would wreck me but it was like 5 dice against 2 to dispel with the rerolls ...

    It really felt like I couldn't do anything, his omen of savar would wreck my fda in cc or my chariot characters so couldn't engage with them and his "crushers" pressured in the other flank so i redirected them cause if they get a charge they would have wrecked anything I had

    Conclusion : Omen of savar seems like our ex-Exalted Herald : Auto-include : 2 and you got all the magic you want + super duellists and great in cc in general.
    They have incredible anvil potential (those 6 4hp stuff really impressed me, same for those block of infantry with res 5, parry and aegis) and great hammers ( they are scary if charging only at least). (Could make a lot of us jealous ^^)
    The interactivity between magic phase and shooting phase with the use of veil token to amplify shooting is great, it's tactical and fun.

    It's not a general truth about DL vs WDG, I think he got a bit lucky in his magic phase, but felt like giving feedback about it could help !
  • Faced Daemons three times in a tourney over the weekend, beat them 16-4, 12-8 and 16-4. The first two lists were essentially netlists with double Omen of Savar and the rest of the army filled with Lemures, Hoarders and Furies. The last list was more imaginative, with a Miser, Omen, an unit of every Core unit, Hellhounds, Brazen Beasts and a Hope Harvester.

    Overall, I felt that the DL army really suffers from an inability to punch through heavy armor, and the dreadful Omen falls apart pretty fast when faced with something that doesn't trigger its ability. Its defenses are ridiculously bad outside dueling combat characters.

    Tarskin is an extremely powerful manifestation against us, though. I think the effect is ridiculously easy to trigger just by corner clipping, and I don't really consider it fair. Still, WDG has quite a lot of tools for fighting Daemons. This a match-up where Wretched Ones and Forsaken Ones go to town and eat their way through nearly anything.
    Life is hard when you're a skeleton