2.1 Warriors of the Dark Gods

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  • Clangeddin Silverbeard wrote:

    WastelandWarrior wrote:

    Fear of the nerf is real!
    Quoted for truth.
    It's all over the place in the armies that were named top tier. The VS forum is bonkers right now. I got into a heated discussion in there about - get this - whether or not plague disciples were super good for their points versus WDG. I mean, how is that even debatable!? :D
    Yeah i read that... pretty crazy! Im really hoping that nothing in any book gets nerfed except for death is only the beginning in UD changed to once per construct unit per turn. Then just buffs for rubbish stuff. Im dreaming i know!
    Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

    Pics of my ever expanding warriors army

    WastelandWarrior Painting League 2018

    WastelandWarrior Painting League 2019
  • Clangeddin Silverbeard wrote:

    Quoted for truth.
    It's all over the place in the armies that were named top tier. The VS forum is bonkers right now. I got into a heated discussion in there about - get this - whether or not plague disciples were super good for their points versus WDG. I mean, how is that even debatable!? :D
    Well... I don't think disciples are OP.
    In general or against WotDG.

    2/3 of units in the game are OP according to at least 1 army community.

    There are plenty of ways to deal with them in WotDG.
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
  • Krokz wrote:

    QFTW: Book is in gold status, no rules changes, only price changes.
    I know for WodG book this is through, but for all the future books, it would be nice if there was one iteration without necessary rules changes before we declare something "gold". With WodG, a bunch of rules were changed, and then, without any chance for feedback or playtesting, we were told "this is gold now", so no changes possible. That is pretty bad style.
    So all the other books:
    Gold gets declared when the designers think there is no change necessary, and release a version with only point changes. AFTER that version, the next can be declared gold.
  • DanT wrote:

    Clangeddin Silverbeard wrote:

    Quoted for truth.
    It's all over the place in the armies that were named top tier. The VS forum is bonkers right now. I got into a heated discussion in there about - get this - whether or not plague disciples were super good for their points versus WDG. I mean, how is that even debatable!? :D
    Well... I don't think disciples are OP.In general or against WotDG.

    2/3 of units in the game are OP according to at least 1 army community.

    There are plenty of ways to deal with them in WotDG.
    "Super good for their points" isn't necessarily the same as OP. Are you saying that they aren't super good for their points versus WDG? I could ask you the same question I asked the guys in the VS-forum: If you were tailoring versus WDG, wouldn't you bring them? I sure would. 2x14 plague disciples, 2 dreadmills and a vermin daemon. Rest of the list according to taste/strategy.

    Having said that, I'm always interested in hearing your strategies, Dan. What tools do you think we have to deal with them? I would personally prefer blasting them with hellfire/grave calls and then charging them. But that's just a LOT of energy to use on a 272 pt unit, and it's magic phases not used on taking out dreadmills. Lagerlof suggested charging them with a doombus, a unit 4 times the value of the plague disciples. My counter-argument was that if he thought I needed a 1100 unit to reliably take them down, he was proving my point: That they're super good for their points versus WDG.
  • rolan wrote:

    it would be nice if there was one iteration without necessary rules changes before we declare something "gold".
    Why? If there is an update without rules changes, why isn't it gold then? And if there is a rules change because of last minute feedback, why not wait for feedback about that rules change again? Seems like an endless loop.
    We do not want to have too many 'open' books at once because it drains our resources (volunteers), so longer that books are not closed the longer it takes to get new books redesigned. And that is not fair for books that are waiting.

    My personal opinion is that it is better to have 16 books 90% perfect than 6 of them 97% perfect and 10 of them not yet redesigned. Those last touches are really minimal to overall quality of the book while they drain a lot of resources and time. Just thinking pragmatic here.
  • Clangeddin Silverbeard wrote:

    "Super good for their points" isn't necessarily the same as OP. Are you saying that they aren't super good for their points versus WDG? I could ask you the same question I asked the guys in the VS-forum: If you were tailoring versus WDG, wouldn't you bring them? I sure would. 2x14 plague disciples, 2 dreadmills and a vermin daemon. Rest of the list according to taste/strategy.
    Having said that, I'm always interested in hearing your strategies, Dan. What tools do you think we have to deal with them? I would personally prefer blasting them with hellfire/grave calls and then charging them. But that's just a LOT of energy to use on a 272 pt unit, and it's magic phases not used on taking out dreadmills. Lagerlof suggested charging them with a doombus, a unit 4 times the value of the plague disciples. My counter-argument was that if he thought I needed a 1100 unit to reliably take them down, he was proving my point: That they're super good for their points versus WDG.
    I don't even know where to begin with this if I'm honest.
    What does super good even mean?
    Why is it a relevant concern?
    No-one has said the unit isn't Rock-paper-scissors.

    Spears are good vs KoE.
    Alchemy is better than average vs WotDG and KoE.
    Cannons are good vs monsters.
    Pyro is good vs most elves.
    Etc etc.

    I mean, to me this is just the game.
    There are no uncounterable units in t9a, and nothing like the level of RPS that existed in legacy.
    I see almost no games that are decided at the list level, as opposed to play (around 90%+ of games) and luck (maybe 5%).

    So, I just don't see disciples as a problem. And I've played with and against them with multiple armies.
    But it seems the general trend on the forum is to complain about every unit that is vaguely rock-paper-scissors.


    Specifically for WotDG:
    basically anything in core
    chariots
    magic
    res5+ units don't care soo much.
    I mean, bascially don't run head on into them with your best armour saves, but even those aren't so bad.

    Also remember, my answer to everything is play 4500pts vs 4500pts.
    I don't care about any individual units, I care whether I win the game.
    Disciples can't flee charges, have frenzy and break easily. You can use them against your opponent.
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
  • Krokz wrote:

    rolan wrote:

    it would be nice if there was one iteration without necessary rules changes before we declare something "gold".
    Why? If there is an update without rules changes, why isn't it gold then? And if there is a rules change because of last minute feedback, why not wait for feedback about that rules change again? Seems like an endless loop.We do not want to have too many 'open' books at once because it drains our resources (volunteers), so longer that books are not closed the longer it takes to get new books redesigned. And that is not fair for books that are waiting.

    My personal opinion is that it is better to have 16 books 90% perfect than 6 of them 97% perfect and 10 of them not yet redesigned. Those last touches are really minimal to overall quality of the book while they drain a lot of resources and time. Just thinking pragmatic here.
    My personal answer:
    I think it depends how big the changes are in the *Gold* update.

    Tweaks: no problem.
    A big change: problem.

    Hypothetically speaking, I would class removing an item as a big change. And I think this is a big source of discontent with WotDG, and I would advise the project against doing it in future. I'm not saying go back and change WotDG now, but I think this is a sensible learning point for the project.
    But the rest of the change before WotDG were golded I thought were pretty minor (although I could have missed something), so I think the rest were fine.
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
  • saint_barbara wrote:

    My expectations:
    Forsworn +40 base, -10 extra
    Chosen +25 base, +5 Envy
    Knights +15 base
    CL +15, Envy +10, Idol +10
    War Dais for CL +40
    Shrine +20
    Maw first gate +20
    Portent +5
    Warrior/Chosen Champion +10
    CK Champion +5

    Reductions will be minimal, like EH -10, FDA -10, maybe 5 in total.
    I can also share these increases which I think are justified (I would be even more severe on forsworns, also increasing the cost of spike shild)

    but I would like to understand why a piece like EH and FDE should be more attractive at 840/420 points

    I would also like to know if you can re-viable "crown of wizard" + "magical heirloom"
  • Krokz wrote:

    rolan wrote:

    it would be nice if there was one iteration without necessary rules changes before we declare something "gold".
    Why? If there is an update without rules changes, why isn't it gold then? And if there is a rules change because of last minute feedback, why not wait for feedback about that rules change again? Seems like an endless loop.We do not want to have too many 'open' books at once because it drains our resources (volunteers), so longer that books are not closed the longer it takes to get new books redesigned. And that is not fair for books that are waiting.

    My personal opinion is that it is better to have 16 books 90% perfect than 6 of them 97% perfect and 10 of them not yet redesigned. Those last touches are really minimal to overall quality of the book while they drain a lot of resources and time. Just thinking pragmatic here.
    As @DanT already pointed out, big changes in the last update and then declaring it untouchable is ...weird at best. A small change or two would really be no problem, but removing or adding special rules, creating or removing special items, things like that happened in the "this is now gold" version of WodG, and there was no chance to test said changes, some are actually quite unpopular, but now we are told it is unchangeable. If there was a last update with only point changes and maybe a minor tweak to rules, people would already know the workings of the book, the main things were playtested and more or less approved (otherwise more changes had been neccessdary), and then it is tim eto declare the book gold, not before.
  • rolan wrote:

    As @DanT already pointed out, big changes in the last update and then declaring it untouchable is ...weird at best. A small change or two would really be no problem, but removing or adding special rules, creating or removing special items, things like that happened in the "this is now gold" version of WodG, and there was no chance to test said changes, some are actually quite unpopular, but now we are told it is unchangeable. If there was a last update with only point changes and maybe a minor tweak to rules, people would already know the workings of the book, the main things were playtested and more or less approved (otherwise more changes had been neccessdary), and then it is tim eto declare the book gold, not before.
    I think you are exaggerating. Project said 6 months before gold that the book is getting sealed in half a year and one big update is in the works. There was no surprise about it. One big update was done, several months after one minor was done (with mentioned item change) and after one month of that minor update gold was released and book sealed. Please be direct which one of these should not be done and what rules are you talking about.

    And that one item change was not taken lightly (we even had a post explaining why it was done with some 5 arguments for it so it was understood it is not a change for the sake of change), community and task team wanted more change before gold, not less. But you have to cut it somewhere and where ever you do, someone will be displeased.
  • DanT wrote:

    Clangeddin Silverbeard wrote:

    "Super good for their points" isn't necessarily the same as OP. Are you saying that they aren't super good for their points versus WDG? I could ask you the same question I asked the guys in the VS-forum: If you were tailoring versus WDG, wouldn't you bring them? I sure would. 2x14 plague disciples, 2 dreadmills and a vermin daemon. Rest of the list according to taste/strategy.
    Having said that, I'm always interested in hearing your strategies, Dan. What tools do you think we have to deal with them? I would personally prefer blasting them with hellfire/grave calls and then charging them. But that's just a LOT of energy to use on a 272 pt unit, and it's magic phases not used on taking out dreadmills. Lagerlof suggested charging them with a doombus, a unit 4 times the value of the plague disciples. My counter-argument was that if he thought I needed a 1100 unit to reliably take them down, he was proving my point: That they're super good for their points versus WDG.
    I don't even know where to begin with this if I'm honest.What does super good even mean?
    Why is it a relevant concern?
    No-one has said the unit isn't Rock-paper-scissors.

    Spears are good vs KoE.
    Alchemy is better than average vs WotDG and KoE.
    Cannons are good vs monsters.
    Pyro is good vs most elves.
    Etc etc.

    I mean, to me this is just the game.
    There are no uncounterable units in t9a, and nothing like the level of RPS that existed in legacy.
    I see almost no games that are decided at the list level, as opposed to play (around 90%+ of games) and luck (maybe 5%).

    So, I just don't see disciples as a problem. And I've played with and against them with multiple armies.
    But it seems the general trend on the forum is to complain about every unit that is vaguely rock-paper-scissors.


    Specifically for WotDG:
    basically anything in core
    chariots
    magic
    res5+ units don't care soo much.
    I mean, bascially don't run head on into them with your best armour saves, but even those aren't so bad.

    Also remember, my answer to everything is play 4500pts vs 4500pts.
    I don't care about any individual units, I care whether I win the game.
    Disciples can't flee charges, have frenzy and break easily. You can use them against your opponent.
    I never said that they were a huge problem. All I ever said was that plague disciples are super good for their points versus a most units WDG have to offer, and that versus my typical lists I have to devote more thought process and actions than their low point cost reflect. This statement was for some reason read by both you and lagerlof as "plague disciples are super OP nerf them now". Which I never said. Perhaps I need to work on my communication skills, I dunno. :D Or perhaps you guys need to be a tad less defensive. It's not that I don't understand where you're coming from, I read all the whine and moaning on the forums as well. But you're not reading what I'm saying.

    Also: "Basically anything in core" ...? In my experience plague disciples murder dogs, fallen & barbarian horsemen. They kill small-sized warrior units and small sized barbarian units if they get the charge, and it's probably stalemate if they don't. Magic, chariots & feldraks are probably the best counter, I'd say. I just don't field chariots & feldraks very often, leaving charging warrior units or precious magic as the best options left.
  • Metallo wrote:

    but I would like to understand why a piece like EH and FDE should be more attractive at 840/420 points

    I would also like to know if you can re-viable "crown of wizard" + "magical heirloom"
    It shouldn't. We're top bracket.

    The other thing is a good thing for me, the other scenario seemed cheeky to me.
  • I don't see how changing the FDA's weapons costing double is either a big change, or doesn't fall under the umbrella of point changes. That is literally what it is, just using different terminology. If that rule was removed, it would still functionally be a point change. If it was reduced to a 50% extra tax, it would be a point change. If it was increased to 7000% it would be a- you get the picture.
  • saint_barbara wrote:

    My expectations:
    Forsworn +40 base, -10 extra
    Chosen +25 base, +5 Envy
    Knights +15 base
    CL +15, Envy +10, Idol +10
    War Dais for CL +40
    Shrine +20
    Maw first gate +20
    Portent +5
    Warrior/Chosen Champion +10
    CK Champion +5

    Reductions will be minimal, like EH -10, FDA -10, maybe 5 in total.
    That's some massive point increases (I know you're just predicting)!

    Is this based on data about people using these things more than other elements in the book? In that case, it sounds like everything that works in the book will be nerfed.

    Increase on Portent I don't get. It's already quite costly and with inbuilt restrictions (max Str 5, flaming).
    Commission painting: IpaintUplay
    My WDG blog
  • DanT wrote:

    There are plenty of ways to deal with them in WotDG.
    Man, Id really love to see how you play with woch against 2 dreadmills, 2 or 3 units of plague brothelhood, vermin demon, doom bell, some ratling guns and coreset.
    I cant really stay behind cause of ranged attacks and I cant really push forward because of ranged attacks + plague brotherhoods.
    Only thing I can think of is 2 times 6 wretched ones. They die almost 4 per turn on average from rangeds (which means they are toughest in our book) and they are best suited to fight against brothelhoods I think. And I get 2 magic dice just because they get shot first by oponents ranged phase. While they get fired, I try to take objectives and shoot back at dreadmill and plagues with battleshrine mage bunkered in warriors, but its still very hard.
  • Clangeddin Silverbeard wrote:

    I never said that they were a huge problem. All I ever said was that plague disciples are super good for their points versus a most units WDG have to offer, and that versus my typical lists I have to devote more thought process and actions than their low point cost reflect. This statement was for some reason read by both you and lagerlof as "plague disciples are super OP nerf them now". Which I never said. Perhaps I need to work on my communication skills, I dunno. :D Or perhaps you guys need to be a tad less defensive. It's not that I don't understand where you're coming from, I read all the whine and moaning on the forums as well. But you're not reading what I'm saying.
    Also: "Basically anything in core" ...? In my experience plague disciples murder dogs, fallen & barbarian horsemen. They kill small-sized warrior units and small sized barbarian units if they get the charge, and it's probably stalemate if they don't. Magic, chariots & feldraks are probably the best counter, I'd say. I just don't field chariots & feldraks very often, leaving charging warrior units or precious magic as the best options left.
    You said "...whether or not plague disciples were super good for their points versus WDG. I mean, how is that even debatable!?..."
    I don't think they are super good vs WotDG.
    I'm sorry that I am debating the undebateable :P
    If more people join in, maybe it will develop into a mass debate...

    Let's take my current list for the sake of concreteness and ignore magic (which skews things in favour of the disciples):
    (Which wasn't built with VS in mind and has had no tweaks made to it in regard to playing against VS).
    Display Spoiler

    Lord-war dias, envy, death cheater, great weapon, flaming banner, trophy rack 560
    Lord-General, Envy, Spiked Shield, Thrice Forged, Dusk Forged, Symbol of Slaughter, Ranger's Boots, Idol of Spite 585
    Sorcerer master, plate armour, shrine, veil walker, alchemist alloy, heirloom, talisman of void, alchemy 880
    25 barbarians-shields, stan, mu, speed banner 320
    18 envy warriors-halberds, FC, relentless 692
    5 dogs 90
    5 CK-sloth, FC, wasteland torch 840
    3 forsworn-damnation, paired weapons 223
    4 forsworn-damnation, great weapons 306
    4496

    So, disciples... for concreteness I will assume 12 deployed 6 wide.
    (A) Envy warriors more likely to get the charge (better charge range and frenzy).
    Warriors win easily if they get the charge.
    If ~12 disciples charge and there is no lord in the unit then ~6 warriors survive and the disciples die. Not the end of the world, but relatively easy to prevent.
    (B) Barbarians+shrine: most of the barbarians will do, but the disciples will die. It isn't terribly stupid to charge the shrine in by itself depending on battlefield situation.
    (C) Sloth CKs lose 1-2 CKs and evaporate them.
    (D) The 4 forsworn will basically trade with them (probably killing 10, but with a couple of high variance moments)
    (E) War dias guy eats them
    (F) Boots guy isn't super excited about the fight, but probably takes 1 wound, kills 5-6 and breaks them.

    Now consider that all of these calculations are front to front, and games are won by not fighting front to front.
    Indeed, I find envelopment to be the best way to beat VS.
    So, I am afraid I fail to see the problem. Sorry.


    One extra thought: If disciples (or insert unit X) are a big problem for you, it is always worth asking if you are bringing a balanced list.

    Edit: @niggeles I was typing when you posted, but hopefully this answers your questions at least.
    I find very few games to be decided by list/army, so I struggle to answer questions like "how do you play against VS?" because I don't change my mindsets against different armies. I play against whats in front of me, and every list vs list has RPS elements, so you put the right ones in the right place to beat the ones you can and minimise the effect of the things you can't.
    Try my tactics for beginners or the tactics in my ID battle report thread for more details (there's also one game vs VS in my WOTDG thread).

    The answer is always to play 4500pts against 4500pts. The change in power and balance of t9a relative to legacy makes holistic and coherent battleplans the key thing that decides games (assuming players don't make dumb mistakes).
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
  • Laurfelt wrote:

    saint_barbara wrote:

    My expectations:
    Forsworn +40 base, -10 extra
    Chosen +25 base, +5 Envy
    Knights +15 base
    CL +15, Envy +10, Idol +10
    War Dais for CL +40
    Shrine +20
    Maw first gate +20
    Portent +5
    Warrior/Chosen Champion +10
    CK Champion +5

    Reductions will be minimal, like EH -10, FDA -10, maybe 5 in total.
    That's some massive point increases (I know you're just predicting)!
    Is this based on data about people using these things more than other elements in the book? In that case, it sounds like everything that works in the book will be nerfed.

    Increase on Portent I don't get. It's already quite costly and with inbuilt restrictions (max Str 5, flaming).
    Portent increase just because of the Dragonfire Gem. This guy is just too tough for the DPS it brings, and with dusk forged as a given, I feel df gem is stronger than the item that gives you 1st hit discount.

    But you're right, these are just rough predictions considering WDG most prevalent builds ATM are crazy MSU with 4x knights and 4x chosen or the hellmaw/forsworn/portent avoidance magic fever multiplied by the tier allocation.
  • DanT wrote:

    (A) Envy warriors more likely to get the charge (better charge range and frenzy).
    Warriors win easily if they get the charge.
    If ~12 disciples charge and there is no lord in the unit then ~6 warriors survive and the disciples die. Not the end of the world, but relatively easy to prevent.
    (B) Barbarians+shrine: most of the barbarians will do, but the disciples will die. It isn't terribly stupid to charge the shrine in by itself depending on battlefield situation.
    (C) Sloth CKs lose 1-2 CKs and evaporate them.
    (D) The 4 forsworn will basically trade with them (probably killing 10, but with a couple of high variance moments)
    (E) War dias guy eats them
    (F) Boots guy isn't super excited about the fight, but probably takes 1 wound, kills 5-6 and breaks them.
    A)Yeah, of course 18 envy warriors will chop them easily (if they charge).
    B)Barbarians will to take them out, death for death, actually this is other thing I can think of when I think about winning vs VS: put some characters and rest go with cores. Im pretty sure that would be good but probably only vs VS.
    C)Problem is that sloths will be probably first target for shooting. So there have be 4 of them to kill some 234 points worth unit.
    D)4 forsworn with GW and doombell does around 5 wounds and takes back 8/9 so Im not sure about your calculations.
    E and F) Boots guy can eat them, but its very risky, also when the fight is over, you have to deal now with a lot of ranged attacks and Im not sure if any chaos lord is ready for that.

    There is a lot of trading deaths going on with these guys and we have to bring like 700pt worth unit to kill their 234 point unit. I know its army vs army of course, like you say. But its hard to even get your 700pt unit to fight with those little spurious childs since you will be shot to hell during the process (and after).
    I play a lot versus shooting armies, but this vermin combo just seem inappropriate.