VS Brainstorming for LAB

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  • Perhaps the endowment of the weapon team are neither engineers nor common rats, but a mixture, apprentices of engineers. If in a clan of rats there are millions and millions of rats, surely there are hundreds or thousands of engineering apprentices. The engineer doesn't care if they die a handful or fifty if he makes a killing machine that is a masterpiece and he can watch it quietly from a safe place.

    By the way, a rule that makes certain cheap characters afraid to go solitary so as not to redirect other units? I can't imagine a high-status rat sacrificing himself for others. For example, if they have to check for panic if they get away, it would look good, maybe if they run away and fall on a friendly unit, they reorganize automatically or something like that because they are already calm among their own.
  • xaby86 wrote:

    Perhaps the endowment of the weapon team are neither engineers nor common rats, but a mixture, apprentices of engineers. If in a clan of rats there are millions and millions of rats, surely there are hundreds or thousands of engineering apprentices. The engineer doesn't care if they die a handful or fifty if he makes a killing machine that is a masterpiece and he can watch it quietly from a safe place.

    By the way, a rule that makes certain cheap characters afraid to go solitary so as not to redirect other units? I can't imagine a high-status rat sacrificing himself for others. For example, if they have to check for panic if they get away, it would look good, maybe if they run away and fall on a friendly unit, they reorganize automatically or something like that because they are already calm among their own.
    But who will decide what's a redirect or not?

    What if you have a character that's really good at killing low tier infantry, and you put him infront of another unit of rats? If that a redirect?

    Not a rule I think is possible to make happen. Why would a goblin be able to redirect? Or a proud rare Eagle?

    Trying to add logic with rules is an easy way to break them.

    I think the +1 flee is really thematic.
    Rules Questions?

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  • With Weapon Team acting as chaff / redirectors there could be quite different issue: if they were effective they would overlap heavily with other our chaff (swarms, giant rats). And there is already little place there...
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  • dan wrote:

    Fleshbeast wrote:

    “Don’t add more power! You might break it!” squeaked no rat ever.
    Heed this man's word. All rat technology should have two settings: "OFF" and "11".
    And it only goes one way.

    xaby86 wrote:

    Perhaps the endowment of the weapon team are neither engineers nor common rats, but a mixture, apprentices of engineers. If in a clan of rats there are millions and millions of rats, surely there are hundreds or thousands of engineering apprentices. The engineer doesn't care if they die a handful or fifty if he makes a killing machine that is a masterpiece and he can watch it quietly from a safe place.

    By the way, a rule that makes certain cheap characters afraid to go solitary so as not to redirect other units? I can't imagine a high-status rat sacrificing himself for others. For example, if they have to check for panic if they get away, it would look good, maybe if they run away and fall on a friendly unit, they reorganize automatically or something like that because they are already calm among their own.
    See my previous comments on grad students.
    A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

    MAKE THE SWARM COWARDLY AGAIN!
    WE DEMAND TERRIBLE LEADERSHIP!
    DOWN WITH COMPETENT GENERALS!
  • What’s to say the character didn’t push forward expecting the rest of the unit to follow him? Sounds like a perfectly executed execution to me.

    Weapons team getting carried away with dealing out the pain and find themselves accidentally out front.

    Whatever the reason, let’s not gimp the options by pushing too heavily into the detail.
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  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Hrm. Perhaps:


    Honourless: (current stuff about ignoring challenges) + This character must make a Panic test if it ends it's movement not in a unit.

    ?

    Makes them pretty bad chaff unless being bossed around by a VD or the like... seems flavourful.
    Also makes them useless at running around with the items we have that grants high mobility and speed.

    Which can be pretty fun.

    Also, imagine the unit gets shot to pieces and you make that dis6 panic. Then you have to take another one because you have no units to join? xD

    Seems everything but flavourful IMO.
    Rules Questions?

    ETC 2016 - Referee
    ETC 2017 Warm-up Herford - Head Judge
    ETC 2017 Salamanca - Head Judge
    ETC 2018 - Team Sweden - Ogre Khans
    ETC 2019 - Team Sweden
  • (Shooting) Weapon Team Universal Rules. This is within the context of them being an upgrade to Tunnel Militia (hate Rats-at-Arms name) that additionally counts towards Tunnel Gunners allotment. A single Weapon Team could be taken for every 30 Tunnel Militia models taken and are 0-4 per Army. The base shooting profile for each weapon will
    1. Allow each weapon to fulfil distinct roles from the other types of weapon team.
    2. Allow them to be priced at around 150 pts each
    3. Prevent them from becoming OP if within range of Supportive Fire (see below).
    Supportive Fire: Universal Rule
    Models with this rule lose Reload! and can make Stand and Shoot charge reactions against enemy units which have declared a charge against a friendly unit of Tunnel Militia within 6” (normal Stand and Shoot restrictions apply, i.e. target unit must be in shooting model’s front arc, further away than its Advance Rate, and the shooting model must be able to perform Shooting Attacks.)

    Additionally, as long as the Weapon Team remains within 6” of one or more Tunnel Militia units, it gains +1 Shot for every Full Rank in a single Tunnel Militia unit to a maximum of 6 additional shots.

    Finders Keepers: Universal Rule
    When the last Health Point is removed from a model with this rule, the owning Player may choose to remove D6+2 models from a unit of Tunnel Militia within 6” of the model as casualties to raise the Weapon Team back to life with full HP. If raised in this way, the Weapon Team is placed within 3” of its last location in any facing and becomes Shaken until the end of the Player Turn. Models removed as casualties above the Weapon Team’s HP value are assumed to have fled the battle.

    The post was edited 4 times, last by The Unmarked ().

  • Can we not streamline the teams a lot and make them either like mammoth stabbers from OnG (unit upgrade, basically immortal)
    Or as a champion upgrade
    Rachitt apprentice: 150pts, champion is on a 40 x 40 base and gains 4++(maybe drop the ward fully) and +1 wound. chooses one of the following weapons. Etc etc

    I personally like the idea of a gattling gun being passed up the ranks and fired from the front of a load of RAA.

    Stops them used as chaff but makes them more survivable and makes core a bit better/more shooty.
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  • New

    xaby86 wrote:

    I like the idea of them being placed outside the units, but I don't care if they're inside either. Probably the best thing would be if they could take both options, inside and outside. Let's say that if they are outside they have more vision to shoot and if they are inside they could lose Reload!
    Outside benefits would likely end up as separate movement on the smaller base which I feel is probably enough of a benefit. :)

    How would we stop us protecting them in a unit on the walk in then popping them out to chaff or shoot into combat? It’s difficult to counterplay unless we make them separately targetable or unable to leave a unit once joined.
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef
  • New

    Did you see the News update here ?

    Any of you guys think we're "top tier"?

    I don't get to play much, but I watch a lot of battle reports and I often find myself wondering how the hell I'd deal with certain lists. I'd say to myself, maybe if I got Wrath of God off twice in the same spot or some other extreme scenario, maybe I'd have a chance. I do try to take balanced lists though.

    Thoughts?

    The post was edited 1 time, last by The Unmarked ().

  • New

    The Unmarked wrote:

    Did you see the News update here ?

    Any of you guys think we're "top tier"?

    I don't get to play much, but I watch a lot of battle reports and I often find myself wondering how the hell I'd deal with certain lists. I'd say to myself, maybe if I got Wrath of God off twice in the same spot or some other extreme scenario, maybe I'd have a chance. I do try to take balanced lists though.

    Thoughts?
    Not surprised. We'll see what comes of it.


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  • New

    I have no say what-so-ever, but if I did I'd probably argue for some price hikes spread across the Vermin Daemon, the Plague Pendulum (specifically), Plague Disciples, Dreadmills and the Plague Catapult.

    Even just raising each of those by 5-10 points per unit would add up to 35-70 extra points across a list that takes 7 entries from that selection.

    I might also argue mercy and push for slightly larger hikes matched by small cuts to Gutter Blades, Jezails and Grenadiers; "sure, we nobbled the best list, but we did help out the weaker entries a little".

    Fundamentally, though, I think hamstringing the best list by some amount of points and pushing VS up the schedule for LAB-ing is the best approach. The Vermin Daemon, in particular, is a band-aid holding a poorly designed book together; having a wide swathe of units that have terrible Discipline and no way to improve it to a decent standard other than "there is a Vermin Daemon on the table" just narrows list design; the Vermin Daemon "unlocks" half the book; if they're costed for a VD being in charge, they're overpriced if he isn't, and if they aren't, they're underpriced if he is.

    Either VS should have good bubble leadership regardless of the general, or it should have acceptable (but not "good") non-bubble leadership and bubble leadership, again, regardless of the general.

    And that's a LAB problem, not a yearly update problem. So hobble the best list a bit, leave other lists untouched as much as you can, and hasten to get the full fix in within a year.

    Background Team

  • New

    Well, no big surprise imho. I can only speak for part of the data sources, and VS had a clear average over performance when combining outcomes of many many tournaments.
    But as also mentioned, I expect significant points increases more on the parts that are really seen as critical, demon, pendulum, mill. Maybe minor on disciples, lightning rod, plague catapult.
    On the other hand there will certainly point reductions, even if considered being top tier. I think gutter blades, assassin, engineer, slaves, rat at arms.

    But who am I, I know nothing.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by arwaker ().

  • New

    WhammeWhamme wrote:

    I

    Fundamentally, though, I think hamstringing the best list by some amount of points and pushing VS up the schedule for LAB-ing is the best approach. The Vermin Daemon, in particular, is a band-aid holding a poorly designed book together; having a wide swathe of units that have terrible Discipline and no way to improve it to a decent standard other than "there is a Vermin Daemon on the table" just narrows list design; the Vermin Daemon "unlocks" half the book; if they're costed for a VD being in charge, they're overpriced if he isn't, and if they aren't, they're underpriced if he is.

    Either VS should have good bubble leadership regardless of the general, or it should have acceptable (but not "good") non-bubble leadership and bubble leadership, again, regardless of the general.
    Uh, no, no we shouldn't. We are a race of cowards, we should have bad leadership (not acceptable, bad) in a lot of cases. Giving us good leadership because it is necessary is just lazy design and exposes badly written core rules.
    A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

    MAKE THE SWARM COWARDLY AGAIN!
    WE DEMAND TERRIBLE LEADERSHIP!
    DOWN WITH COMPETENT GENERALS!