VS Brainstorming for LAB

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  • Fleshbeast wrote:

    I was thinking the harmonisation would come across the battlefield from opposing armies bells. It would add a layer of tactics as you could cast a couple of times to get the strength up but that would also benefit your opponent.

    Ultimately, having all Bells on the field contributing would allow some significantly strong large aura spells to be cast which would mean epic damage across the entire table. :D
    how often do you see multiple bells on the table?
  • bargo wrote:

    Fleshbeast wrote:

    I was thinking the harmonisation would come across the battlefield from opposing armies bells. It would add a layer of tactics as you could cast a couple of times to get the strength up but that would also benefit your opponent.

    Ultimately, having all Bells on the field contributing would allow some significantly strong large aura spells to be cast which would mean epic damage across the entire table. :D
    how often do you see multiple bells on the table?
    Between the current effect it has and the fact it can only be mounted by a wizard master? Never.
    Oh and of course it being 0-1 ;p.
    Does it mean this has to stay the same with the LAB? No.

    Could it, being accessible by a Wizard Adept or maybe even as a new unit entry (or both!), appear multiple times in a list? Yes.
    Question is: How desirable is this?

    At the moment the character-section of VS has quite a lot of "centerpieces". VD, Pendulum, Bell..all 0-1.
    If nothing from the background speaks against it, I certainly could see Pendulum & Bell becoming 0-2 each by being more accessible (be it either to become a mount or as a new unit entry on its own). Of course their elitness would have to be adjusted accordingly.
    If done you suddenly make up a lot of new combinations possible and might even be able to free up the character section somewhat.
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  • I still like the idea of big and little bells. Make it an army theme!

    Bells as an equipment for non-assassin characters. Musicians count as bells. The more bells on the field, the stronger the effect of the big one. Encourages bringing multiple units of core infantry, too.
    A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

    "Après la vie - le mort, après le mort, la vie de noveau.
    Après le monde - le gris; après le gris - le monde de nouveau.
    "
  • Eldan wrote:

    I still like the idea of big and little bells. Make it an army theme!

    Bells as an equipment for non-assassin characters. Musicians count as bells. The more bells on the field, the stronger the effect of the big one. Encourages bringing multiple units of core infantry, too.
    Yeah, and forces you to field the big bell to make use out of it. :/

    Full Layout Coordinator

    Translation Team DE

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  • Eh. Musicians still do plenty of things without the big bell and for the heroes, just don't buy bell equipment.

    It wouldn't use too much rule space either. Just a sentence in the bell's description. Something like "Ringing the bell: do X, with a +1 bonus for every friendly musician or other bell within 24" of the bell".
    A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

    "Après la vie - le mort, après le mort, la vie de noveau.
    Après le monde - le gris; après le gris - le monde de nouveau.
    "
  • Eldan wrote:

    Eh. Musicians still do plenty of things without the big bell and for the heroes, just don't buy bell equipment.

    It wouldn't use too much rule space either. Just a sentence in the bell's description. Something like "Ringing the bell: do X, with a +1 bonus for every friendly musician or other bell within 24" of the bell".
    Balancewise that is quite hard to do. Either you make the Bell expensive because there can potentially be like 20 Musicians on the board or you make the Musicians more expensive and risk the Bell to become a must have to justify the increased costs for Musicians.

    Option 3 is making the effect so harmless that no one even cares.

    Full Layout Coordinator

    Translation Team DE

    VC Community Support

    Supporter of Veil of the Ages

  • Lich King wrote:

    Eldan wrote:

    Eh. Musicians still do plenty of things without the big bell and for the heroes, just don't buy bell equipment.

    It wouldn't use too much rule space either. Just a sentence in the bell's description. Something like "Ringing the bell: do X, with a +1 bonus for every friendly musician or other bell within 24" of the bell".
    Balancewise that is quite hard to do. Either you make the Bell expensive because there can potentially be like 20 Musicians on the board or you make the Musicians more expensive and risk the Bell to become a must have to justify the increased costs for Musicians.
    Option 3 is making the effect so harmless that no one even cares.
    Option 4: like option 1 but limit it to a maximum off xy musicians. If you limit it for example up to 3, the cost can be kept in check.

    However, that would mean the effect the bell has, has to be scalable, limiting design.

    Right now all we can do is speculate what could happen from either old games, the current version or "its a bell". I'm curios to see what BG actually says about the bell in detail.
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  • Shako wrote:

    Lich King wrote:

    Eldan wrote:

    Eh. Musicians still do plenty of things without the big bell and for the heroes, just don't buy bell equipment.

    It wouldn't use too much rule space either. Just a sentence in the bell's description. Something like "Ringing the bell: do X, with a +1 bonus for every friendly musician or other bell within 24" of the bell".
    Balancewise that is quite hard to do. Either you make the Bell expensive because there can potentially be like 20 Musicians on the board or you make the Musicians more expensive and risk the Bell to become a must have to justify the increased costs for Musicians.Option 3 is making the effect so harmless that no one even cares.
    Option 4: like option 1 but limit it to a maximum off xy musicians. If you limit it for example up to 3, the cost can be kept in check.
    However, that would mean the effect the bell has, has to be scalable, limiting design.

    Right now all we can do is speculate what could happen from either old games, the current version or "its a bell". I'm curios to see what BG actually says about the bell in detail.
    Though limiting it to a maximum of (let's agree on 3 here for example) means it has no real interaction with your army list or playstyle. And the effect must then be big enough even without the 3 Musicians that grant a bonus to the effect, otherwise the bell will not be in a good spot.

    I like to think of it as a tactical sign to communicate across the battlefield. It could signalize the rats that have undermined the battlefield to make their tunnels collapse, forcing nearby enemies to make DTT. Or it could be a call for ambushers to come, maybe even something like Underground Ambush. Or it could grant commands in a range of x“ just like in EoS. These options would all be fitting for a Roman themed army of Ratmen, if you ask me

    Full Layout Coordinator

    Translation Team DE

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    Supporter of Veil of the Ages

  • Lich King wrote:

    Though limiting it to a maximum of (let's agree on 3 here for example) means it has no real interaction with your army list or playstyle. And the effect must then be big enough even without the 3 Musicians that grant a bonus to the effect, otherwise the bell will not be in a good spot.
    Oh, I agree. Design on that part will be very difficult.
    You would need to balance the effect of 0,1,2,3 Musicians in x". Now if you take the battlefield (and probably non-fleeing musicians only in any case) 3 is a rather low number. This would be easy to balance as the assumption will be "there are 3 musicians on the battlefield". Now you have the full effect nearly 100% of the time and just have to adjust it downwards accordingly -> it will feel that like the bell is getting slightly worse for the rare occasions.
    -> Probably not great design as small effects in limited scenarios tend to be forgotten easily.

    So either increase the number, lets say 5: Now there's a good chance you won't have the full effect. Problem -> The ability needs proper scaling, again difficult.

    If you introduce a range it will get more complicated. It's also lead to playing the army tight together (bug? feature?).

    In any case: such an ability will be hard to design properly. Impossible? No. Challenging? Yes. Worth it? Maybe?



    Lich King wrote:

    I like to think of it as a tactical sign to communicate across the battlefield. It could signalize the rats that have undermined the battlefield to make their tunnels collapse, forcing nearby enemies to make DTT. Or it could be a call for ambushers to come, maybe even something like Underground Ambush. Or it could grant commands in a range of x“ just like in EoS. These options would all be fitting for a Roman themed army of Ratmen, if you ask me
    Sounds good to me. Id like to see something like Underground Ambush to be more common for VS. Looking at a Total War game, there's a race of rats in one game of the series with a neat ability to summon full blocks !

    Like 20 pages ago I also had the idea of giving R@A Feigned Flight. So one could push them forward, have a controlled retreat and while the R@A slide to the side, preparing a flank charge, some other unit (either R@A, Vermin Guard or something else) pushed to the front so the enemy can't turn around.
    That would work well with the bell, for example by giving maximized roll on Discipline tests (or some sub-set of them).
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  • You're right, that is hard to balance. Okay, alternative suggestions, spellcasting edition:

    The caster on the bell can cast damage spells originating from any musician on the field.
    The caster on the bell can cast buff spells on any unit with a musician on the field, ignoring distance and line of sight.
    Whenever a caster on the bell casts a spell, all units with a musician get a small buff.

    As for keeping everything clustered closely together, that seems very swarmy to me.
    A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

    "Après la vie - le mort, après le mort, la vie de noveau.
    Après le monde - le gris; après le gris - le monde de nouveau.
    "
  • Eldan wrote:

    You're right, that is hard to balance. Okay, alternative suggestions, spellcasting edition:

    The caster on the bell can cast damage spells originating from any musician on the field.
    The caster on the bell can cast buff spells on any unit with a musician on the field, ignoring distance and line of sight.
    Whenever a caster on the bell casts a spell, all units with a musician get a small buff.

    As for keeping everything clustered closely together, that seems very swarmy to me.
    Can't be either of the first two. Unless you change path avaiabilty.
    As currently Witchcraft would be useless with both of those.

    The buffing units with musician runs into the pricing problem again. Hardly matters what the buff is, but it makes a difference whether you buff 1, 2 or 5 units at the same time!
    Again, could be somewhat circumvented with a radius as there are only that many units you cut squeeze into the radius, still somewhat problematic.

    I'm also yet to be convinced that the big bell needs to do something with musicians. I get your idea of other bells helping but why does the bell change the trumpeteers or the drummers? The hornblowers? The pipers?
    I feel you're getting somewhat to cute with your idea, though maybe it's just because I can't quite envision the proper effect, yet :).
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  • How about when the bell rings units with musicians (bells) gain steadfast. not a buff to large units but will help with the smaller units stick a bit better in combat i.e hulks, foot pads etc.

    would need to change the current giant rats & hulks rule from swift reform to free musician to allow them to benefit.

    Also how about giving the bell 2 bound spell.
    1st is swing the bell - repeatable and adds a token to the bell.
    2nd is ring the bell - Wrath of god with the point on the center of the bell front - it gets +1 casting value per token in addition to the range. Rat units with musician take 1/2 damage from this.
  • I was thinking about an overpower risk/reward option for the Canon this morning and considered that range is probably the biggest issue and so that is probably where we should point the design-brain.

    Note, this method slightly adjusts how we consider the ‘to hit’ roll from “did I hit it” to “I have aimed correctly” and then adds a second tier of “did I turn up the juice enough to reach my target?”

    Overpower:
    Choose your target. Target may be outside standard 48” range of the Canon. Roll to Hit as normal.
    On a successful roll to hit, select/roll a number of additional dice of your choice. For each dice showing 4+ add 6” to your range. For each dice showing 1-3 reduce the strength of your canon shot by 1.
    If after rolling the target is out of range then the shot is considered to have missed.

    Eg. I choose to roll two additional dice. I roll a 2 and a 5. My canon stats are now range 54” strength 6.

    Other thoughts: considering the chance to still miss and the fairly significant penalty of -1S we may have to adjust to 3+ giving more range to balance the risk/reward.

    What do you guys think?
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef
  • What’s your mechanic?

    My assumption is that the canon would ideally not shoot more than its set range of 48”. The risk reward should not be a gimme every time like the current dreadmill overpower. As such a simple stack of another -1 to hit for even longer range is imo lacking in flavour and misses the mark for what we are trying to achieve with risk/reward.
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef
  • I think it is important to have a very similar rules mechanic for risk-reward implemented in all our weapons. Sure, some small deviations are necessary, but it would be a nightmare if every weapons has a completely different rule for this.

    Therefore I think it is necessary to have a basic concept for overcharging before going into details with the specific weapons.