VS Brainstorming for LAB

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  • arwaker wrote:

    I think a very important point regarding VS discipline should be the following:

    VS are not a rambling horde unwilling to follow orders. VS can be very disciplined when it comes to coordinated behaviour. They have a very good sense of how to act as a community, as a machine combined of myraids of small gears. Everyone knows it's place and they can very fast react as a group.
    This is a significant difference to OnG.

    Orcs and Goblins are all very individualistic. They all try to be the first, try to achieve the best for themselves. They often stand in each other's way. They have coordination problems. Orcs might be brave, not afraid to die, even fight in a bad situation as long as it is a good clash.

    Vermin might be cowards. When there is a severe threat (lose a close combat, face a dragon, being bombed out) they suddenly all lose their confidence. They all flee simultaneously, just Iike they do everything simultaneously. They are not brave, but they are coordinated.

    I think Vermin don't need excessively high Dis for fear, panic and break (the current 10 should not be reachable, maybe not even 9). But they should be good when it comes to the other situations where dis tests are required. Redirecting charge, combat reform, restrain overrun etc.

    Not sure how to exactly put that into rules. There are two basic options:
    a) Have high Dis, but have malus in tests related to being brave.
    b) Have Low Dis, but have bonus in tests not related to being brave.

    This is really interesting. I really appreciate posts that try to put armies in context relative to other armies..

    "Not brave but co-ordinated" is a really fascinating thing that could be explored in many ways. Very cool :)

    Does this capture what a majority of players feel about VS compared to e.g. goblins?


    I have a follow up question:
    "Sneakiness" is an attribute that is talked about in regards to goblins and vermin swarm (amongst others).
    On top of that there are things like BH, where ambush and attacking flanks/rears is explicitly part of the mechanics.

    Perhaps the differences between these armies in this regard could be elucidated as well (like the discipline example above)?
    I'd be fascinated to hear how people see the differences between different armies in this regard.
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  • Dis 8 is quite reasonable chance to succeed the test when being steadfast. But sure, on the other hand you are right, we want to also win a combat from time to time. Army wide FieR might help there a little bit.

    But please, don't fall in that discussion of "wah, that makes vermin unplayably bad", because it is just not true. Everything can be balanced with points. The question is just whether the design fits our imagination.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by arwaker ().

  • Coordinated but cowardly fits my vision really well, yes. Though I think I'd like to expand on the the part about orks above: orcs try to get into combat first and get the glory. Rats want the glory just as much, but they don't want to be endangered for it. Rats want to be the last in their unit to charge, and also be the last survivor after they win, because that's more glorious for them.

    In regards to sneakiness... I find that difficult to differentiate. Perhaps bring it back to cowardliness. The main goal of a rat killing an enemy in a sneaky way is eliminating risk. If you can kill the enemy before he sees you, there's no risk of losing.
    A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

    Collection of all offcially posted Vermin background

    'All the gifts your parents gave you, all the love and patience of your friends, you drowned in a neurotoxin. You let misery win. And it will keep on winning till you die — or overcome it.'
  • DanT wrote:

    I have a follow up question:
    "Sneakiness" is an attribute that is talked about in regards to goblins and vermin swarm (amongst others).
    On top of that there are things like BH, where ambush and attacking flanks/rears is explicitly part of the mechanics.

    Perhaps the differences between these armies in this regard could be elucidated as well (like the discipline example above)?
    I'd be fascinated to hear how people see the differences between different armies in this regard.
    Hm that's a good question.

    What is sneakiness at all? I'm not so sure whether it fits to vermin as a general concept. Sure, there should be sneaky units like Assassin, Gutterbades, maybe Footpads. But I really struggle to find very sneaky attributes in vermin as a general attribute.

    Maybe vermin are better described as nimble. They are elusive, hard to catch, when bashing them with a large stick, they suddenly flow apart like a fish swarm, just to flow together again directly behind the swing (I can't describe this in English as accurate as I want). You know what I mean?

    They could be exceptionally good in not being hit by single large things? Evade ++ roll against template attacks? Distracting against gigantic opponents?
  • Eldan wrote:

    Coordinated but cowardly fits my vision really well, yes. Though I think I'd like to expand on the the part about orks above: orcs try to get into combat first and get the glory. Rats want the glory just as much, but they don't want to be endangered for it. Rats want to be the last in their unit to charge, and also be the last survivor after they win, because that's more glorious for them.

    In regards to sneakiness... I find that difficult to differentiate. Perhaps bring it back to cowardliness. The main goal of a rat killing an enemy in a sneaky way is eliminating risk. If you can kill the enemy before he sees you, there's no risk of losing.
    Well, I think glory is nothing the normal vermin is heading for. It just does not feel right imho. This is an OnG thing. Vermin more try to achieve the greater good, even if they have to sacrifice themselves for it. They just need to be properly motivated to do that. Imagine the red army.
  • I see the vermin as too selfish to sacrifice themselves. They sacrifice others for the greater good.
    A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

    Collection of all offcially posted Vermin background

    'All the gifts your parents gave you, all the love and patience of your friends, you drowned in a neurotoxin. You let misery win. And it will keep on winning till you die — or overcome it.'
  • Eldan wrote:

    I see the vermin as too selfish to sacrifice themselves. They sacrifice others for the greater good.
    That's how their leaders act. They try to motivate/indoctrinate/brainwash their subordinates to only live for the greater good. Often this works and wave after wave is happily charging into death. But as often it doesn't work, and the coward vermin instincts take over, making them run and hide.
    They want to be not selfish. They want to serve the greater good. That's what they were told permanently in their short lifes. They don't live long anyway. What matters that insignificantly earlier death? But their animalistic instincts just not always allow them to be like that.

    The post was edited 3 times, last by arwaker ().

  • The leaders are selfish. They claim to care for the greater good, but in reality they don't. They want personal profit, power, glory, and most of all...survive.

    But in order to become a leader, a vermin individual must survive long enough. Must learn, realize how their society REALLY works. And he must bring a certain value of cunningness. When he matured far enough, he can release himself from the 'common good' propaganda, he realizes that everything is a mess, only himself is what really counts. He suddenly wants to become powerful and rich. But in order to achieve that, he must attract many followers. Those willing followers are attracted by?.... Inspiring propaganda about the greater good. And such the circle closes.

    Maybe this concept is somehow biologically related. The specific part of their brains that enables individualism does normally not grow during their short life span. Only when they survive long enough, they finally become aware and understand the benefits of individualism. But before that, they are mentally dominated by instincts and propaganda.

    The post was edited 8 times, last by arwaker ().

  • JimMorr wrote:

    Well... Reducing break discipline to 8 would requiere allowing us to win some combats first. Today we lose most combats and are able to hold only thanks to having more ranks. All changes to reduce our Dis or to introduce line formation would have to be supported with a significant boost in CC performance. Somehow I doubt we'll see it :(
    i totally agree that CC must be buffed. The absence of any decent combat in our troops has long been a sad thing for me.

    I have been thinking along the lines of the swarm mentality (I like the ambitious leaders and their knowingly sacrificing their trips for the greater good). I agree that the swarm would have a totally different mentality (like the difference between peasants and nobility). They understand that the unit comes first and that victory for their general will bring them honour and they will be better treated for it. Therefore fighting as a unit is important and in order to be successful they must have a single mind in the attack.

    Therefore as a suggestion... The swarm ignores unit losses for the purposes of combat resolution. All other effects are calculated instead. In addition the enemy adds 1 for every full rank of vermin killed in that combat.

    In practical uses this means the enemy still gain bonus for kills but not as much as the masses they take off each round. I still believe that the swarm should be reduced to resistance 2 so deaths will still be high. The swarm would then have rat & arms and slaves that could still hold as road blocks but by running our elites in line formation they can be designed to deal more damage quickly.

    the swarms main bulk consists of masses of poorly trained infantry, fighting in a frenzy of attacks, literally fighting over each other with no regards for their own personal safety. Overwhelming the enemy with numbers. In amongst these are huge hulking brutes, wading through their ranks to inflict heavy attacks with claw and teeth.
    Along with these masses are small elite units of heavily armoured vermin guard, the honoured guard of the warlords. With their skill and speed they despatch even the most skilled enemy. Also the plague brotherhood, a frenzied militant group, who coat their weapons with various chemicals to debilitate their foes.

    Maybe even having much smaller units of elites and larger units of core. My vision is slaves pretty much as are, rat & arms also as is but with fight in extra ranks (all) to do tons of weak attacks with low strength. Footpads to provide a range unit with their slings (probably no paired weapons option) but even lower weapon skill to differentiate from rat & arms. Minimum unit sizes of 30 for all of them up to maybe 60.
    Then elite special choices of vermin guard with their heavy armour, strength 4 with halberds. Higher weapon skill to symbolise the elite and much higher agility than they currently do. Again fight in extra ranks (all). Or high strength combat. Brotherhood units with their paired weapons, hated and battle focus. Added options to cost various chemicals to debuff the enemy.
    Unit sizes of min 15 and Max 30.

    I think that this covers a really good array of infantry. A core that can hold its ground with interesting options to add Vermin Hulk to increase damage output and high strength attacks. Then an elite infantry that covers both higher strength and debuffs. But in smaller numbers (aiming to increase for model count but decrease elite count) but higher agility to that their effects are more likely successful in combats.
  • In that regard, Orcs and Goblins are very different. They pop out of the egg (or however they are born, not sure whether this has already been clarified finally) and are immediately individuals. Some of them are stronger than others. Those will be leaders immediately.

    Those stronger (or more cunning when speaking of goblins) individuals are born leaders. They don't have to attract followers, they accept them. But they would as well come along without followers. They just do whatever they want, no matter who follows them.

    The weaker ones don't follow the strong leaders because of convincing speaches or sense of greater good. They just they think following the strong dude promises a better life for them. They will immediately turn around when they see a better leader.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by arwaker ().

  • arwaker wrote:

    I think a very important point regarding VS discipline should be the following:

    VS are not a rambling horde unwilling to follow orders. VS can be very disciplined when it comes to coordinated behaviour. They have a very good sense of how to act as a community, as a machine combined of myraids of small gears. Everyone knows it's place and they can very fast react as a group.
    This is a significant difference to OnG.

    Orcs and Goblins are all very individualistic. They all try to be the first, try to achieve the best for themselves. They often stand in each other's way. They have coordination problems. Orcs might be brave, not afraid to die, even fight in a bad situation as long as it is a good clash.

    Vermin might be cowards. When there is a severe threat (lose a close combat, face a dragon, being bombed out) they suddenly all lose their confidence. They all flee simultaneously, just Iike they do everything simultaneously. They are not brave, but they are coordinated.

    I think Vermin don't need excessively high Dis for fear, panic and break (the current 10 should not be reachable, maybe not even 9). But they should be good when it comes to the other situations where dis tests are required. Redirecting charge, combat reform, restrain overrun etc.

    Not sure how to exactly put that into rules. There are two basic options:
    a) Have high Dis, but have malus in tests related to being brave.
    b) Have Low Dis, but have bonus in tests not related to being brave.

    this really fits with my vision of VS.

    I would suggest having the panic dis as the base as that way forgetting the malus and passing on a roll equal to dis doesn’t piss off your opponent or materially impact the face of the battle when you both remember it.

    I would suggest a maximised roll for the coordination-based mechanics as it is a very simple non-calculated approach which is near to a +1 in most situations.
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  • Could we convert magic dice to veil tokens and have darkshard devices to store them for use in shooting and CC phase as buff items.

    Our units and characters could have darkshard talisman/items as upgrades that can be charged by veil tokens to give buffs but also cause toxic hits to units in contact with them (including themselves).

    make our hereditary spell one that lets us do this conversion so the enemy can employ counter measures if needed, characters could then have it a bound item to let us cast it more often or make it repeatable.
  • What are dark shards at all? I'm not convinced of rules suggestions using them, without me understanding their existence before.

    Are they parts of asteroids or comets? Are they specific stones dug out from the depth? Are they artificially manufactured objects? Or maybe materializations of magical or religious rituals?

    I don't like the asteroid thing. Rats should not be so keen on something coming from the far skies.
  • They are dug out of the ground, they are black, and they create electricity.
    A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

    Collection of all offcially posted Vermin background

    'All the gifts your parents gave you, all the love and patience of your friends, you drowned in a neurotoxin. You let misery win. And it will keep on winning till you die — or overcome it.'
  • Eldan wrote:

    They are dug out of the ground, they are black opaque, and they create store electricity among other things.
    :)

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  • What part of the VS society digs them out? Is there a clan, a company or a institution responsible for collecting and distributing dark shards?

    How common are they? Does every family have one at home for personal electrical assistance? Or are they very uncommon, only affordable by rich mad scientists? Or anything in-between? How big is the average dark shard and how is their size distributed?

    Are the dark shards known among other species? Do vermin trade them? Would they go to war for them? Are they secret or well known of?

    What is the stored electricity used for? Only weapons or also infrastructure and dark rituals? How is the electricity created? Are there powerplants to load up the dark shards? How are those plants powere? Coal, oil, water, radioactivity, hamster wheels? How much electricity can be stored in an average dark shard?

    How to release the electricity? How long can it be stored? Is it safe or dangerous (haha, why do I even ask that?).

    Is all that already fixed or can we somehow contribute to these answers?
  • Not much more than that known, sadly. THere's only one snippet of fluff, that I can't find anymore at the moment, of a human scholar looking at one and saying that Vermin use it. And of course it's dangerous and unstable.

    There's been some homebrew material. The Taphrian Armies project suggested that Taphrian Vermin mine them in the Great Rift, which is a daemon infested region, then tride them North to the Avrasian vermin.
    A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

    Collection of all offcially posted Vermin background

    'All the gifts your parents gave you, all the love and patience of your friends, you drowned in a neurotoxin. You let misery win. And it will keep on winning till you die — or overcome it.'
  • @arwaker general information about the dark shards has been established and will be presented when appropriate. Some for the more detailed information you ask BGT has no intention to explore until we will have time to devote to supporting the eventual RPG in T9A World.

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