open letter to the T9A staff

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    • Dilly wrote:

      Interesting point of view but as a returning warhammer player I've actually found it to be different. I found the 9th age through my own investigating when looking to pick up warhammer again in recent years. I love the 9th age but when looking at clubs in the Midlands people mainly quoted the same sort of response when I enquired about 9th
      "Oh yeah, that's the community game system that took up after GW killed warhammer."

      The majority of people I managed to get games with were previous warhammer players that looked at it as warhammer, the next version.

      I can completely see the p.o.v to get into stores as the way to establish the 9th Age as its own brand but I suppose its reflecting on whether it's the game system or the miniatures that actually entice fresh players as other miniature game players tend to know the general idea of what 9th is.

      In my case, thinking back those many years, I think it was actually the miniatures/art side that drew me in to the hobby and the staff that helped me grow with the game system so maybe it is more of a visual thing to begin with?
      There are definitely some regular players and some clubs in the midlands, I'll tag a couple.
      @JordanBladen @Tanka @Slatchman

      Maybe you are right, but I find the idea that there are lots of players who don't know what t9a is, but who would see it in shops and decide it is the game for them, even if there are no players at their local club, to be somewhat unlikely.
      List repository and links HERE
      Basic beginners tactics HERE
      Empire of Dannstahl HERE
    • DanT wrote:

      Dilly wrote:

      Interesting point of view but as a returning warhammer player I've actually found it to be different. I found the 9th age through my own investigating when looking to pick up warhammer again in recent years. I love the 9th age but when looking at clubs in the Midlands people mainly quoted the same sort of response when I enquired about 9th
      "Oh yeah, that's the community game system that took up after GW killed warhammer."

      The majority of people I managed to get games with were previous warhammer players that looked at it as warhammer, the next version.

      I can completely see the p.o.v to get into stores as the way to establish the 9th Age as its own brand but I suppose its reflecting on whether it's the game system or the miniatures that actually entice fresh players as other miniature game players tend to know the general idea of what 9th is.

      In my case, thinking back those many years, I think it was actually the miniatures/art side that drew me in to the hobby and the staff that helped me grow with the game system so maybe it is more of a visual thing to begin with?
      There are definitely some regular players and some clubs in the midlands, I'll tag a couple.@JordanBladen @Tanka @Slatchman

      Maybe you are right, but I find the idea that there are lots of players who don't know what t9a is, but who would see it in shops and decide it is the game for them, even if there are no players at their local club, to be somewhat unlikely.
      Yeah sorry Dan, I was a bit unclear. Since I first looked at 9th people put me in touch with Jordan etc. and now I know more about the Midlands scene and the people that play. I was mainly referring to the majority of club members when I was first looking at the beginning.

      I found people were aware of what it was about and how it related to warhammer but didn't play it themselves, instead playing the 40k, kill team, sigmar etc.

      Yeah I agree it will be unlikely as it is such a niche hobby but I don't think it's mutually exclusive to the players also playing and using word of mouth.

      I suppose I'm saying that approaching it from both angles seems beneficial to me and possibly exploring other avenues also.
    • DJWoodelf wrote:

      isnt there a way to reduce the total sum, e.g. to 4000 EUR?
      Or would you run a second kickstarter try in few weeks?

      reducing the sum is impossible by KS rules. i have doubts about a second kickstarter - my main motivation for this project is passion, not profit. if the Community doesn't share this enthusiasm, i would probably be forced to choose between (a) letting go and moving on, or (b) doing it for profit, not for passion. option (b) doesn't seem feasible to me, it would suck all the fun out of it, and i can't work on something ten hours a day if i'm not having fun with it. so, unless an option (c) appears, letting go and not running a second campaign would be my first choice.

      anyway, we're not finished yet. today people were generous, kicktraq looks better than yesterday, and there's at least a hundred people who asked to be sent a reminder about the project shortly before it ends, so if we grow a bit more in the next week, the propspects aren't all that bad! ; )





      Hoffa wrote:

      As I happen to be the perfect intersection of the possible target markets for this kickstarter. (A T9A geek with kids that happens to consider doing demos someday and plays both O&G and HBE) I'm just guessing how others might reason.

      yes, you're right, VotA is trying to keep together the two aspects (outreach + veterans). i agree that from a commercial point of view it could have been wiser to keep the two separated. that's the smart decision if you're talking to people's wallets. with a project like T9A, i am much more inclined to talk to people's feelings. if they want the game to grow, even if they don't need a single orc miniature, they can still donate 5 bucks, or share the link with their friends. similarly, if you're only into it for the "simple" version, you'll probably not even notice that two or three stretchgoals (out of 15) are related to the bigger game system. so yes, i agree that i lose focus, but i also gain some extension, so in the end it's not such a horrible move (i should hope).





      Hoffa wrote:

      Auto2 wrote:

      I won't be demoing kamorko's escape because I'm demoing to adults
      Point taken. I should have written. Demoing to younger players (or perhaps teaching the basic mechanics to people with no previous wargaming experience).

      mh, @Auto2, now that you mention it, i'm curious about whether not using Kamorko's escape for demoing to adults is a matter of too much storytelling or too little rules. because if it's storytelling, well, no problem, you can suppress it at will. and if it's the amount of rules, i think this is worth reconsidering. if there's one thing i've learnt by teaching the game to a lot of people in the years, is that most players HATE the idea of having to make choices without knowing the full picture. that's precisely the rationale between scenarios 1-3 in The Breach, where you only shoot, then only charge, then only fight. plain and simple dice-throwing. too little?

      no. it lets people focus on the mechanics, understand them, feel ready for the next thing you'll throw at them. you can't say: "here, you can stand still, advance, march, charge, but if you march no shooting, if you advance shooting with modifier, if you charge no shooting in any case, but also if you roll high enough you are in base contact with me and if you dont oh man you're so dead next turn". i've seen people "teach the game" like that - can you imagine? overwhelming.

      the alternative is, for the first five minutes, to give new players very little - just the tools. makes them understand what they're doing, and how. after five minutes, they start to make decisions, and to own them. once they see they are in control (e.g. of what happens with failed charges), they want more - give me regiments, give me multiple units, and spells, and listbuilding and BAM! they're in.

      i know that many of you might be unimpressed by exalted tales of personal joy based on anecdotal evidence. this is the T9A forum, after all : D so, if you're curious, here's one of the things i've been working on lately, to assess and quantify the learnability improvement i obtained with the various iterations of rules simplification - until i reached something i was satisfied with. you read this graph like a written page: time flows from top left to bottom right. for each line showing the minutes, you have coloured blocks when the two players are speaking (slightly vertically offset, so you can see the contribution of each player). the speech intervals are colour coded: red means reading the rules, yellow means discussing on how to interpret the rules (remember, no one is showing them the game, they're learning on their own), and green is play time. you extract a few stupid summary stats, mumble, do some juicier dynamical modelling, and you get yourself a measure of the learning curve. from there, you just iterate: write, let play, record, calculate, think, rewrite, let other new people play, record, calculate, and so on. until you find something you're pleased with. something you can actually be confident about:



      (bit too much on the nerd side?)

      anyway, all i am saying is: try teaching the game once with The Breach first, and once without (hopefully sampling newplayers with similar profiles). then you'll be able to say whether this is useful or not.
      even for experienced wargamers.



      Dilly wrote:

      In my case, thinking back those many years, I think it was actually the miniatures/art side that drew me in to the hobby and the staff that helped me grow with the game system so maybe it is more of a visual thing to begin with?
      ...
      [sales, stores, clubs, word of mouth] I suppose I'm saying that approaching it from both angles seems beneficial to me and possibly exploring other avenues also.

      [visual] - agreed! i am sure that T9A will be way more attractive once the new website (with more images) is up and running.
      [stores, clubs] - yes, for a promotional campaign, just like a tabletop campaign, synergy is the way to go. very often on this forum i see people proposing A and other people proposing B. in cases where they are mutually exclusive, discussion is fruitful. but when A and B can be executed in parallel, i often find myself in agreement with good old Elvis and his conversation/action ratio : )


    • I belive a split in the Kamakos Escape part as being the main one and the free addons of video gaming as stretchgoals and a kickstarter planing, and better thought through reward levels which don't hinder your intended goal as much as at the moment would go a long way to make it succceed easier and bring even more than what you wanted for this one.

      Because this time yous sold a good idea not ideal. A a bit different presentation, and a little packing and presenting things more kickstarteraffine would make a huge difference in my opinion.

      Advisery Board Member

      Click to apply to staff. I Organise: TA, TS and ACS. My Perspective on T9A on Youtube: T9A in Bayern - YouTube and T9A in Bavaria - YouTube
    • DanT wrote:

      lots of players who don't know what t9a is, but who would see it in shops and decide it is the game for them, even if there are no players at their local club
      I have a local club in a city of 300,000 people and I only have about 6 players in the city.

      Having 9th Age in stores would provide a way for people who I cannot currently reach to realise that 9th Age exists. I am convinced that out of those 300,000 there are probably 100 or so who would occasionally play 9th age if they knew we existed.
    • Auto2 wrote:

      I have a local club in a city of 300,000 people and I only have about 6 players in the city.
      Having 9th Age in stores would provide a way for people who I cannot currently reach to realise that 9th Age exists. I am convinced that out of those 300,000 there are probably 100 or so who would occasionally play 9th age if they knew we existed.
      Maybe. I think you playing games where they play would do more.
      Or playing games at the place where they shop.

      *Shrugs*. This isn't really the place for this discussion so I'll leave it now.
      And I don't have the time or skills to act on it either way, just saying what I think will work and what I think less likely to work.
      I would be very happy to be proved wrong :)
      List repository and links HERE
      Basic beginners tactics HERE
      Empire of Dannstahl HERE
    • piteglio wrote:

      my main motivation for this project is passion, not profit
      This might not be what you want to hear but companies founded on 100% passion almost always fail. I see the current KS as you creating a product you wished already existed and that is a perfect fit for you. However people are motivated by different things and value different things and going for a mix of passion and profit forces you to consider what other people actually want.

      I think it would be a shame if you gave up on your great ideas if your first KS fails I really think you are onto something but have packaged it wrong. Knowing what I know now I would have created a KS like this.

      Reward levels

      1 Donation, donate what you feel like. Get the free downloads if the KS succeeds

      2 Kamorko the "lucky" orc , X € . Get the Kamorko model (allow for ordering multiple models)

      3 Elf, X €. Get the elf warrior model (allow for ordering multiple models)

      4 Elf + Kamorko, (a bit less than 2*X €) (allow for ordering multiple models)

      5 Early bird Kamorkos escape Y € (Current box but with at least some cardboard 2D terrain/ratswarm/deamon added so it's fully playable out of the box!) Allow for ordering multiple boxes The number of early bird offers should probably be limited to about 50 based on the current KS, you want these to sell out during the first week.

      6 Kamorkos escape. Same as 5 but a bit more expensive.


      Stretch goals could then be some combination of :

      *3D terrain.
      *Computer game.
      *Ratswarm model
      *demon model

      Keep the rest of the current stretch goals (translations, unit cards, models extra rules cards for Kamorkos escape etc.) to some other kickstarter. They either don't make sense in this context or make the basic box seem incomplete.

      Notice that my suggestion is basically the same stuff as in the current KS but packaged to be appealing to a larger group of people. Also this variant of the KS should be more interesting to people currently not playing T9A.
    • yes, Hoffa, this is a reasonable compromise between the appeal of scalability (for backers) and the unpracticality of a multiproduct line (for producers). it looks a lot like what i could do with the next KS, if this one goes well.



      but again, if this one doesn't succeed, i hope that i won't be seen as a sore loser. especially if you consider one fact: this thread has had more than 1000 views in less than 2 days. if everyone who saw this thread decided that yea, alright, they don't need the starter set, but at least there's someone bringing new strange content on the forum, making openplaytesting leagues, writing scientific articles about T9A... so alright, i'll spend 3 minutes of my time and 5€ in donation... well, if people reacted to that, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

      i can do more, there's no doubt about that. i can improve the marketing of the KS campaign, and shift my targets. but it won't be of much help, unless the (let alone the T9A staff) T9A community decides that they wanna help - even with 5€, even with 1€! not even 1€ - just by sharing some VotA tweets/posts with your wargaming friends and with your parent friends! i don't wanna bust my arfse with a life-consuming project for a dozen of us. i don't need the approval of the masses, but at least i need to feel that T9A is with me.

      that doesn't mean i don't recognise and appreciate the contribution of some amazing individuals who have shown me great support. i am now preparing for WTC, but after that i plan writing a bit about all the people who have been incredibly helpful to me so far - i don't wanna give the impression i don't recognise the amazing support i've had from Johan, Matte, Andrea, Nis, Tom, Staff, Andre, Flo, Daniel and many others, including, of course, you.

      but when i wonder about what could be done i immediately jump at the "what have i done wrong" question. i find it a healthy thing. as long as we all do that : )


    • There are not 1300+ Unique views. The counter is increased everytime I open the thread, reload a page, move from page 1 to page 2 and perhaps also when I post a comment I will find that out in a few seconds. Views are now 1309. Considering how often I check this thread, edit my posts and so on I might well be responsible for 5% of the total views.

      Edit, and after posting counter went up to 1310. I'm going to assume that editing a post also will count as a view.

      The counters can only be used to gauge how popular a thread is compared to other threads.

      @piteglio I think you might have overestimated the number of active users on this forum.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Hoffa ().

    • yes, i know these are not unique views, but then again, if we cut them down by a third, it makes 400 unique users, which multiplied by 5 makes, again, the 2K we still need until completion... same thing with the 400 people on staff, maybe reduced to half for double/inactive accounts, multiplied by 25 of one box, makes the 5K you need for the entire funding. estimating actual traffic is never easy, i agree - but mny numbers are about engagement, not traffic!

      at any rate - @joel127, thank you! bringing us very very close to the 60% mark! i know i might sound like i'm constantly whining, but i am very grateful for your support! every day brings something great. yesterday my good friends @PTG - Hyper-G and @PTG-Lucky-Sixes helped me out big time by welcoming me onto their channel, and today by relaying the news. the VotA/PTG alliance is strong! : D complete video in the spoiler below



    • Just trying to help where we can mate. Plus I personally think it is a really cool looking project and want to see how it progresses! Keep up the good work mate! :write: :charge:
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    • Give him some of your money, folks. It's an investment in the future of the Ninth Age. @piteglio and his crew has worked dead hard at bringing this about, and I believe you'll be hard-pressed to find any others who will put so much thought and labour into making our hobby accessible to newcomers of all ages, even if you wait and search for many years ahead.

      It's in your best interest to see new blood and new opponents brought into the hobby in general, and into T9A in particular. Do not lightly discard the thought of backing this Kickstarter. The Ninth Age is an enormous undertaking run by blood, sweat and tears and a tonne of free labour. Enthusiastic community contributions are its lifeblood, yet the fruits of these large efforts need wider outreach. I've invested much time and energy in making artists on Deviantart aware of T9A, and getting many artists and art enthusiasts to follow its art group or even ask for a place in T9A's art team. That's a long-term investment in the creative people who makes the magic happen: Draw them in and hook them, intrigue them and make them dream of the Ninth Age like they've dreamt of Warhammer previously. Outreach.

      But the end product of said magic process deserves to reach a larger public. Have a presence in brick-and-mortar stores. Give ourselves perfect tools for easily showcasing our wargaming hobby to recruit new players. This is where Veil of the Ages come in. We need a hook with bait in order to lure in more to join our ranks.

      Veil of the Ages is a unique opportunity. Support it if you want to support your favourite wargame; one with great potential, all born out of this community's labour of love. :)

      Cheers

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Karak Norn Clansman ().

    • piteglio wrote:

      *snip*
      writing scientific articles about T9A...
      *snap*
      This is interesting, I remember students making an interactive touchscreen gaming table where all the rules got incorporated into the digital part. The idea was to make complex games simple with technology. Of course it never got beyond a prototype and these days we have augmented reality (not getting up and running properly). Besides that the usnwc has been doing more practical research for a while to kill better. You are a linguist, it would be very interesting to hear/read what you wrote and see it applied in games.


      Karak Norn Clansman wrote:

      Give him some of your money, folks. It's an investment in the future of the Ninth Age. @piteglio and his crew has worked dead hard at bringing this about, and I believe you'll be hard-pressed to find any others who will put so much thought and labour into making our hobby accessible to newcomers of all ages, even if you wait and search for many years ahead.

      It's in your best interest to see new blood and new opponents brought into the hobby in general, and into T9A in particular. Do not lightly discard the thought of backing this Kickstarter. The Ninth Age is an enormous undertaking run by blood, sweat and tears and a tonne of free labour. Enthusiastic community contributions are its lifeblood, yet the fruits of these large efforts need wider outreach. I've invested much time and energy in making artists on Deviantart aware of T9A, and getting many artists and art enthusiasts to follow its art group or even ask for a place in T9A's art team. That's a long-term investment in the creative people who makes the magic happen: Draw them in and hook them, intrigue them and make them dream of the Ninth Age like they've dreamt of Warhammer previously. Outreach.

      But the end product of said magic process deserves to reach a larger public. Have a presence in brick-and-mortar stores. Give ourselves perfect tools for easily showcasing our wargaming hobby to recruit new players. This is where Veil of the Ages come in. We need a hook with bait in order to lure in more to join our ranks.

      Veil of the Ages is a unique opportunity. Support it if you want to support your favourite wargame; one with great potential, all born out of this community's labour of love. :)

      Cheers
      I agree, T9A is a behemoth of a wargame driven by a group of interested people (many thanks to all involved over time!!). The work done is amazing and word of it deserves to be carried out into the world. This is a chance for us to use crowdfunding how it was meant to be used: invest a small amount to get something innovative done as a group.
      Let's make this introduction to T9A become a thing!
    • today is gonna be a good day! we're getting closer and closer to 66.6%.
      but more importantly, the trend in these last few days is very encouraging:

      progress.png

      green solid line: funding goal
      red dashed line: extrapolation of recent trend

      if you guys keep pledging & spreading the word, just like you've done in the last few days, we can totally make it.
      thank you all! now i gotta dash and get ready for WTC - hope to meet many of you there and shake hands
      cheers,
      f