Rating our book - Community Project results

This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

Our beta phase is finally over. Download The Ninth Age: Fantasy Battles, 2nd Edition now!

  • Rating our book - Community Project results

    Hi there fellow Warlords, Shamans, Witchdoctors and Kings,

    A few weeks ago I asked for our forum to rate the various entries in our book. I put all reactions in a word document for each entry.
    For those interested the document can be found here:
    Link

    Note that I just copy/pasted all reactions and these are not my own opinions but literaly reactions from the forums.

    Thanks to all for the input!
    :O&G: :VC: :KoE:

    Homebrew Army: The Lycanthropes
  • Sometimes very interesting answers. As I am currently building an OaG army (after selling my HbE) I am a bit surprised about the positive vibe surrounding the IO. I would not play them as for their cost, 1 Att only and fearless, they are actually very predictable and outclassed by other CC options. Small units (15 with muso)...that I could see. Big units I compare to 24 gnashers + giant/chariot and goodbye IO.

    The biggest problem of the OaG I would see in:
    1) trolls
    2) total overshadowing of common orc (eadbasher or not) by ferals. Pretty much in teh same way the IO are outclassed.

    Regarding the 1), I would sum up their problems like this:
    a) no scoring
    b) no musician - the most important upgrade + no champion and standard (+ no magical banner option)
    c) stupidity
    d) price

    The importance of the issues from top to bottom. For fluff reasons, I would leave "stupidity" rule as it is (thats why it also is ranked as c), otherwise, it would a b) importance-wise). It gives serious unpredictability, but it also pushes their price down despite needed buffs.
    I would also be careful with giving them scoring.

    My proposed solution would be to give them access to champion, who acts as a musician as well (same solution ghouls have) + price reduction of 10-15 % on normal troll after the first 3. Upgrades 1-2 points cheaper.

    Regarding the 2) I would venture to say the only problem is pricing. Ferals are not under priced, but commons are simply too expensive.

    On the other side of the spectrum (units that could use some toning down) I see gnasher herd (-1 agi for hard nerf, 1-2 points more for adjustment).

    These are just 3 things, that stand out the most in my opinion.
  • Evaenarion wrote:



    On the other side of the spectrum (units that could use some toning down) I see gnasher herd (-1 agi for hard nerf, 1-2 points more for adjustment).
    I would be very careful with removing 1 agi from gnashers it would cause them to suffer the curse of the orcs & goblins - die before you can strike and I thnik that we have such units already..


    They maybe need some kind of adjustment but I do not think that removing 1 agi would be a way to go.
  • Looz wrote:

    Evaenarion wrote:

    On the other side of the spectrum (units that could use some toning down) I see gnasher herd (-1 agi for hard nerf, 1-2 points more for adjustment).
    I would be very careful with removing 1 agi from gnashers it would cause them to suffer the curse of the orcs & goblins - die before you can strike and I thnik that we have such units already..

    They maybe need some kind of adjustment but I do not think that removing 1 agi would be a way to go.
    As I said, it certainly would be hard nerf. I have no idea, what kind of "overperforming" label they have. I would guess they are going to see some sort of nerf. There are a lot of ways to do this. Starting with -1 Agi (arguably the hardest) all the way to +1 point (smallest) and all in between (-1 Deff/larger point incerase, removal of beast unit type etc.)
  • Evaenarion wrote:

    Sometimes very interesting answers. As I am currently building an OaG army (after selling my HbE) I am a bit surprised about the positive vibe surrounding the IO. I would not play them as for their cost, 1 Att only and fearless, they are actually very predictable and outclassed by other CC options. Small units (15 with muso)...that I could see. Big units I compare to 24 gnashers + giant/chariot and goodbye IO.

    The biggest problem of the OaG I would see in:
    1) trolls
    2) total overshadowing of common orc (eadbasher or not) by ferals. Pretty much in teh same way the IO are outclassed.

    Regarding the 1), I would sum up their problems like this:
    a) no scoring
    b) no musician - the most important upgrade + no champion and standard (+ no magical banner option)
    c) stupidity
    d) price

    The importance of the issues from top to bottom. For fluff reasons, I would leave "stupidity" rule as it is (thats why it also is ranked as c), otherwise, it would a b) importance-wise). It gives serious unpredictability, but it also pushes their price down despite needed buffs.
    I would also be careful with giving them scoring.

    My proposed solution would be to give them access to champion, who acts as a musician as well (same solution ghouls have) + price reduction of 10-15 % on normal troll after the first 3. Upgrades 1-2 points cheaper.

    Regarding the 2) I would venture to say the only problem is pricing. Ferals are not under priced, but commons are simply too expensive.

    On the other side of the spectrum (units that could use some toning down) I see gnasher herd (-1 agi for hard nerf, 1-2 points more for adjustment).

    These are just 3 things, that stand out the most in my opinion.
    Trolls are indeed one of the most critisized units, and rightfully so.

    The reason O&G seems very positive on IO is not because the community as a whole thinks they are on par with other elite infantry (because they are not) but they are the only real elite unit we have and they perform well due to their versitility and bodyguard. They are after all a 3+ armor unit when you need an anvil, a paired weapon unit when you need to grind something down or a great weapon unit (with str 7) to take down monsters. Green Tide helps this unit a lot.

    But I agree, they should have an extra attack to be able to run with other elites.
    :O&G: :VC: :KoE:

    Homebrew Army: The Lycanthropes
  • In general de internal balance is good but externally I find the army weak. We don't have good leadership (actually the weakest in the game), movement, resilience, scoring units (probably we are also the weakest army), we are weak in combat, average shooting phase, weak magic.

    Also the current top armys (VC, DL, UD and VS) all of them win us easily and have access to either divination or evocation which destroy us. Right now we have very bad or bad match-ups, average ones but we destroy nothing. The army needs a lot of love. No army is fear of facing an OnG army.
  • kaisersose wrote:

    In general de internal balance is good but externally I find the army weak.
    The project gathers data to measure external balance.
    It will be used in ~Autumn to help with the update, I hope that the project will release what the data say about the external balance, although sadly the teams in charge of this are very understaffed.
    It will be interesting to see what the data say about O&G.

    Baldin wrote:

    Aka a jack-of-all-trades close combat army.
    Can you elaborate on what you mean by this please?
    Do you think this is community consensus?
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
  • I agree data has to be used. Nevertheless I think this has several problems:
    - Data can be interpreted at will. UD magic phase is OP and it has been improved in the last books. Rising the bowshabtis points is not enough. UD magic phase has to be tonned down heavily (It is just an example).
    - Data can not be the only source. You don't need results to realised the army leadership is weak as hell. It is ok as one of the army weaknesses. The problem is that we need a clear path to go as 9th-age clearly has not. ¿Which are the army strenghts? The 9th age beauties (UD, VC, DL, VS) have clear strenghts and some weaknesses. We need love. All we need is love. Really. A bit at least.
    - The changes can be smaller or bigger. To put the books of DL and OnG in the same level spot can be done in one iteration, in some years, or never. I will put my money in the last one (see the last point).

    - People are biased. There is no problem with it. It is what it is. We know 9th-age is biased to certain armies since the beginning. Are they doing something to avoid it? Or just denaying their existance? The effort and love behind the VC book is far away from ours. What can we do to get some love? The romance between 9th-age and VC is better that the ones in the twilight.
  • DanT wrote:

    Baldin wrote:

    Aka a jack-of-all-trades close combat army.
    Can you elaborate on what you mean by this please?Do you think this is community consensus?
    It is widely accepted that O&G is a jack-of-all-trades army, however many/most people also see O&G as a close combat army.

    I guess it is mostly what I believe it is ment to be and a sliver of what the consensus is.

    My reasoning is mostly that we are nog among the best in close combat or shooting or magic or movement. Basicly O&G is not among th ebest in any given play style.

    Overall I think O&G is among the best books balance wise.
    :O&G: :VC: :KoE:

    Homebrew Army: The Lycanthropes
  • I agree data is not the only thing you can base changes upon.

    See the Gargantula. It has been increased in points because it was taken so often, however even if it is still increased more it will still be taken simply because it is the only monster we have that is as killy as it is. And thus, imo, it will be taken even if it would be again increased in points. Imo it sits fine at the point value it has atm.
    :O&G: :VC: :KoE:

    Homebrew Army: The Lycanthropes
  • kaisersose wrote:



    We know 9th-age is biased to certain armies since the beginning. Are they doing something to avoid it? Or just denaying their existance? The effort and love behind the VC book is far away from ours. What can we do to get some love? The romance between 9th-age and VC is better that the ones in the twilight.
    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
    Ok, I'll leave you to your delusions now :)

    Baldin wrote:

    It is widely accepted that O&G is a jack-of-all-trades army, however many/most people also see O&G as a close combat army.
    I guess it is mostly what I believe it is ment to be and a sliver of what the consensus is.

    My reasoning is mostly that we are nog among the best in close combat or shooting or magic or movement. Basicly O&G is not among th ebest in any given play style.

    Overall I think O&G is among the best books balance wise.
    Sorry Baldin, I still don't understand what you meant by your initial statement I'm afraid :(
    I'm not questioning it or disagreeing with it, I just wanted a precise elucidation of what you originally meant :)

    I think my confusion is that "JOAT" to me means magic+shooting+combat+synergy+whatever, so I am not sure what "JOAT combat" means?

    Do you mean it is JOAT but more combat than anything else?
    Do you mean that it only scores meaningful VPs with combat but everything else helps achieve this goal?
    Do you mean it is combat focussed, but able to do combat in lots of different ways?
    Something else?
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
  • Excuse my vagueness.

    What I mean is that I see O&G as a melee orientated army that is among the stronger factions in melee. They should still lack behind the likes of WotdG in sheet melee effectiveness, but should be able to compensate that lag by being JOAT in other areas.

    So mostly this "Do you mean it is combat focussed, but able to do combat in lots of different ways?"

    Example is that we have shooting, but it's among the weaker shooting in the game. We have magic but not the strongest in the game (not looking at path strengths here but special rules). We have special deployment, but it is limited.

    All in all a melee army that is supported by doing everything not melee a little bit as well.
    :O&G: :VC: :KoE:

    Homebrew Army: The Lycanthropes
  • Baldin wrote:

    Excuse my vagueness.

    What I mean is that I see O&G as a melee orientated army that is among the stronger factions in melee. They should still lack behind the likes of WotdG in sheet melee effectiveness, but should be able to compensate that lag by being JOAT in other areas.

    So mostly this "Do you mean it is combat focussed, but able to do combat in lots of different ways?"

    Example is that we have shooting, but it's among the weaker shooting in the game. We have magic but not the strongest in the game (not looking at path strengths here but special rules). We have special deployment, but it is limited.

    All in all a melee army that is supported by doing everything not melee a little bit as well.
    That's great thanks, I just wanted to clarify what you meant.

    FWIW I agree that this is a good and appropriate vision for O&G, and I think my contribution to the internal vision stuff for O&G when on RT was along these lines.
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
  • In te previous 9th-age edition the army strenghts were hordes and distance damage. With a hundred bows+pyromancy+mad gits a lot of people was scared. Also the line formation help a lot with the minimised panic test. The book results were average. We were not able to meet almost anyone in combat but we could decimate them before.

    Every strength was inexplicably destroyed. Goodbye minimised panic test. Goodbye shoot with everyone. Goodbye strong pyromancy. Goodbye cheap mad gits. Goodbye rank bonus to line formation. Goodbye three monsters at the same time.

    Now we are trying to guess the army strengths. Four years later. I agree laughing is what it's left. You only have to see the forum to realised this army has been completily forgoten. The 9th-age heart is somewhere else. In love with a vampire probably.
  • Dude, I would ask you to please show the court on this doll just where the bad Vampire Army list touched you. :)

    There are certainly internal balance things that can and will be changed when the army gets its LAB treatment. Yes Ferals seem to negate any reason to take common orcs unless you plan to shoot, and some choices are not perfectly balanced with other choices in the list. However O&G seem to be about middle of the road in terms of external power. I see that you are sad that some of the better toys from the earlier Beta versions are gone, but that has happened to many units across many factions, and the orcs got an improved "Born to Fight" rule which means we get the +1 most of the damn time now... it is great.

    O&G are only one faction I play in 9th, but they are consistently fun and competitive. I also do not understand the lack of love for Iron Orcs. They are fantastic. You get St 4 Res 4, Off/Def 5, and Weapon Master, all for 20pts a guy for the first 15, 27 thereafter. They have scoring, plate armour, and Bodyguard. Why do they need 2 attacks to compete? And with whom are they competing? Where is the 2 attack standard size elite infantry from Beast Herds? DL? EoS? ID? KoE? OK? UD? VC? or VS? That is Nine OTHER factions that also lack Elite Infantry with 2 attacks. I'll concede that OK don't count because they are large infantry. With access to cheap green tide banners they are super killy. I always run with a unit of 30 or so and an Iron Orc BSB to lead them. Paired weapons at Strength 5 is brutal, HW&S gives a parry and a 3+ save, GW is Strength 7!! They are amazing and flexible and bodyguard. I can't imagine why they would want an extra attack at what it would cost in points, when we can already get an extra rank of supporting attacks for 45pts with a banner.

    The army is still strong in large horde size units, and still has a range of strong builds and playstyles. I only hope you stick with it long enough to play a few games against other armies that have also seen balance tweaks that powered downward, and not just compare it to a point in time in the past that none of your opponents have access to either.
  • Gaius Marius wrote:

    Dude, I would ask you to please show the court on this doll just where the bad Vampire Army list touched you. :)
    :D :D :D :D :D :D Good one.

    Gaius Marius wrote:

    O&G are only one faction I play in 9th, but they are consistently fun and competitive. I also do not understand the lack of love for Iron Orcs. They are fantastic. You get St 4 Res 4, Off/Def 5, and Weapon Master, all for 20pts a guy for the first 15, 27 thereafter. They have scoring, plate armour, and Bodyguard. Why do they need 2 attacks to compete? And with whom are they competing? Where is the 2 attack standard size elite infantry from Beast Herds? DL? EoS? ID? KoE? OK? UD? VC? or VS? That is Nine OTHER factions that also lack Elite Infantry with 2 attacks. I'll concede that OK don't count because they are large infantry. With access to cheap green tide banners they are super killy. I always run with a unit of 30 or so and an Iron Orc BSB to lead them. Paired weapons at Strength 5 is brutal, HW&S gives a parry and a 3+ save, GW is Strength 7!! They are amazing and flexible and bodyguard. I can't imagine why they would want an extra attack at what it would cost in points, when we can already get an extra rank of supporting attacks for 45pts with a banner.

    If you play a unit of 30 black orcs tells me that you are not playing in a competitive environment (which is fine) so you opinion is not tested against high level opponents. You can do the math with this 800 point unit against similar oponents.

    I have been playing with only orcs the last two years in the 'league' of Spain. There a lot of top tier spanish players (the previous orc and goblin from the spanish team) that have just abandoned the army. One of them have only played orcs the last...20 years?

    This army has a lot of problems (weaknesses) and I don't see any solution (strenghts). For you the hordes are a strenght. Ok.
  • It doesn't actually tell you that I am not playing in a competitive environment. What it may point to is that we play in different Meta environments. If your local Meta skews toward a lot of MSU, or specific types of playstyles, then yes, 30 might be overkill. And for the record my O&G aren't my tournament army, that is true.
    However, your complaint about Orc competitiveness isn't born out in overall tournament results... it is very specific and anecdotal.
    In the competitive Spanish 'league' O&G have fallen out of favour, and you feel that it is because, in particular, certain 'competitive' build elements are no longer available.
    Top tier Spanish players no longer favour O&G for high end competitive play... I think that is a different argument and one you maybe can make. What armies have these guys switched to? What did the competitive builds look like?

    Anyway, what are some specific, realistic, changes that would improve the presence of O&G in your local tournament league?

    PS I saw a tournament army in Australia (online Battle report) with 5 units of 15 IO, it was nuts. :)
  • I really applaud the effort Baldin, but wish to emohasize that there a merely a very small selection of opinions, and should never be seen as reprensentative of how the average greenskin player view the current O&G book. And as such, I hope no desiscions are ever based on this.

    As I try to explain often, this site has very small bearing in many commities. I know in NL that none of the O&G players except you and me (only partially) reacted, as most do not care much about this forum. The (very active) Italian and Spannish scenes hardly come here. To make things slightly worse, one could also say that only a rather niche part of the wider comminity comes here, which makes basing choices on what has been said here even more tedious.

    I layed out the options to delve deeper in the community before, which involves questionaires that are spread through local community leaders / TO's. Not very hard actually, but takes some preperations.

    I believe the O&G books is perfect and just needs some cool fluff and stories (like the whole of T9A).
    Booooooaaaaaarsssss .... Chaaaaaaaaaaaaaarge !!!