How to grow 9th Age - Thoughts of a 20+ years competitive gamer

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  • @jirga if you want to compare pages you would have to take into account Mantic Games (47,304 people like it). Not bad for a company with ugliest minis on the market ;)

    Also 'game without company backing' is not precise. There is a number of backing companies behind us. And I am not talking about myself... Some of the true supporting companies even cancelled their own games to give us their full support. I believe Project could make a better use of their support, though. PR-wise, I mean.

    I am not saying that to diminish Projects achievements, just to place us in the correct context. Our popularity is probably 10% of KoW. In USA probably less in EU more. The game is fast, fun and popular. Despite being 'a full game' it is simpler than our QS. Which raises question if QS couldn't be even simpler. I believe we are making QS not for us but for KoW / AoS players.
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  • JimMorr wrote:

    I believe we are making QS not for us but for KoW / AoS players.
    I beleive this kind of audience is mostly gained through "eye candy" effect, which, we obviously lack ;)
    Let's face it, the 9th age is not and will never be for everyone.

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  • JimMorr wrote:

    ...

    I am not saying that to diminish Projects achievements, just to place us in the correct context. Our popularity is probably 10% of KoW. In USA probably less in EU more. The game is fast, fun and popular. Despite being 'a full game' it is simpler than our QS. Which raises question if QS couldn't be even simpler. I believe we are making QS not for us but for KoW / AoS players.
    I basically agree that QS rather shares the same target group that KoW and AoS do.
    Though I dont think having micromanagement as AoS has and rank&file as KoW has should be a problem.

    IMO, KoW at least two IMO awful mechanisms (no flee, no attacking back...) which made me not prefer it over T9A although I somehow do prefer the simplicity of KoW.....so QS can be the "golden mean" / "happy medium" of both.

    Removing models IMO is what prevents T9A/QS from being as abstract as KoW.

    Quick Starter Team

    Playtester


  • DJWoodelf wrote:

    Removing models IMO is what prevents T9A/QS from being as abstract as KoW.
    KoW units are blocks which is worst part of the game for me. If we could have units consisting of 1-3 'stands' we could have more complexity (e.g. different formations) without micromanagement. Stands would allow also to use miniatures with round bases without re-basing. Another feature for AoS players ;)
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    Or my WoT EU clan:
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  • JimMorr wrote:

    Fnarrr wrote:

    I don't think KoW is much more popular than T9A though.
    Ninth Age Fantasy Battles
    Public group - 1,311 Members



    Kings of War Fanatics
    Closed group - 9,838 Members
    Even I am not in that Facebook group, its completely irrelevant.

    I do however have a login and a couple posts on the KoW forums, and it was pretty dead out there.


    Not trying to poo on KoW btw, nor mantic. KoW was enjoyable, I liked it, I've got the rulebook. Mantic's mins are hit or miss, but some are really good (my HbE are almost entirely mantic, everything bar characters). I'm just telling you that it isn't the type of design to aspire to for its target audience, we'd lose almost everyone we currently have; and anyone we could appeal to would presumably rather play KoW itself.
  • Some of you guys forget what made you start the hobby. If GW did black and white pdf and you had to look at 100+ miniature companies to find models to play... No one would have played warhammer in the first place in these conditions.

    When you are 12, you get fascinated by the books, army pictures, stories and battle report... Did you forget that ?

    Now we are all here because we are in this for years and love this kind of game and hobby at the same time. Despite everything you can possibly say about quality of ruleset (and it is true), if tomorrow GW releases back WHB, T9A is dead. This is the sad truth, I mean people are playing AoS ffs !

    But T9A is a community project so things are slow. Good but slow. I mean look at the full books ! Nothing to envy from pros ! It will get there at some point.

    The store we play in has no problem because we still buy stuff from them. Probably not as much as if there were official T9A products on the shelve though..
    When people pass by they ask if we play Warhammer, nobody knows about T9A, and if they heard about it, they might think it is not very serious fanwork (like so many WHB fan stuff was made before).

    However, last time I had the amazon copies by the table, it got more attention from people around because it looked professional. So I definitely think that having T9A product on shelves would help.

    Companies could make models designed for T9A (already the case) that stores could officially sell as for T9A system, together with the official rulebook with background and art. And knowing this is happening makes me confident. Just don't assume everything is granted...
  • Kings of war page been around since 2013

    The T9A closed FB page being around since end of 2017. And I’m sure the KOW fb page would of seen a huge spike of membership during “”the end times””

    Not such a good comparison.

    Here for example KOW got huge number of turn out 1-2 years ago and would always be bigger then T9A, now we have bigger turn out of player base at events. Would argue T9A is either equal or bigger then KOW in some parts of the world.

    Is it common for KOW to either get 200 or 300 plus at events?
  • piteglio wrote:

    [...]
    but this leaves us to the same old point:
    do you think videogames are good for the future of T9A? ok, let's make a videogame.
    do you think the QS is not the best tool? ok, let's work with the big rules.
    do you think that creating 400 3D models for all units is a huge task? ok, let's start with 1-on-1 games.
    [...]

    TL,DR: can you really expect Staff or Companies to do more, if most players/customers (even those who vocally say that the game needs more support) end up only supporting what fits their immediate needs?
    Look, I think we are exactly on the same boat here with a few minor exceptions:

    1) I don't think videogames are a good future for T9A. If I wanted to play videogames, I wouldn't be painting miniatures. I do play videogames, and instead of adding to the T9A experience -I play Vermintide 2 a lot-, they detract from it as I am playing videogames instead of painting my armies or playing T9A. Videogames are an insular experience, maybe shared online, but they will not grow our market.

    2) The QS is your baby, and obviously for you it is a good idea. For me, it is just another game. I mean: it could very well lead to a growth of the community that has never played a wargame ever before, but... will it really actually add enough new players to the full system? Will it detract from the ones we have if it -maybe- becomes more popular than the bigger system? Are you, perhaps, creating a new competitor that would atomise even more our presence on the gaming scene?

    3) I think the best models that could be created for T9A are real 3d models: miniatures. Glad to see there are so many companies doing this already, I just hope they not only stick around for a while, but that they start having FULL ranges for whole armies, so if anyone wants an army of, let's say, dwarves from MOM minis, they can actually buy all units from them.


    But you're not really understanding what I am saying here:

    You say all the time "if you want something done, do it yourself". Well, awesome: I can't code, my art isn't good enough, I can't be organising events on a monthly basis, and I am not such savvy enough on layout or whatever the hell the project might need now.

    But I can give you two things:

    1) Tell you what I am encountering whenever I try to grow the system, so you have an idea of what we are dealing with in my side of the world without expecting to be called out for "doom and gloom" posts.


    2) Help financially through Patreon or a similar platform. But people don't want a steady income that would pay off website designers, artists, and other technically challenging aspects of the growth of our platform.

    There is an elephant in the room and everyone is intent of yet bringing more inside: you cannot expect everything to be don in a volunteer way if not all of us have the means nor the skills to contribute meaningfully to the project.

    But I am good at teaching, earn a salary for it, and I could give T9A a small token every month to get things rolling.

    Think about it.
    LET ME SHOW YOU HOW TO PAINT YOUR MINIATURES EASY AND FAST WITH A NO-BRAINER TECHNIQUE:
    :mentalist: youtube.com/c/MiguelGarciaFernandez :mentalist:
  • It is allways possible to buy and donate art for example. Also buying and spreading the Amazon books could help, too. And oh, supporting Kickstarters which are T9A centric could help, too.

    The way my hobby scene is organised, QS and Veil ... are for different targets than those I run into. Nontheless I did invest a not small ammount of money in it, because I want the vision to become true and to see if or how the vision has an impact.

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    Workfields: Tournament Analysis, Army Community Support, Playtesting, Community Engagement, Translation/ United Nations DE Blog: Inside TA. The biggest german Tabletop Board: tabletopwelt.de
  • Shukran wrote:

    Ok@mi wrote:

    You preach, yet where is what would back up your position?

    For trolling, your skill surpases mine, that's for sure.
    when "trolling accusation" comes in play it means obtusity won.Keep on going your hard work of suggesting, then
    youtube.com/watch?v=0SMxJdSrbhU

    Let's do it your way then, oh great contributor.

    I would donate money through a Patreon or similar service. You can do whatever you want. Even coming here to tell me how obtuse and unskilled I am.

    I gave you benefit of the doubt because I didn't think you were explaining yourself well.

    I just see that you are here just to argue for the sake of it. Nothing has been gained in our exchange.

    Bye.
    LET ME SHOW YOU HOW TO PAINT YOUR MINIATURES EASY AND FAST WITH A NO-BRAINER TECHNIQUE:
    :mentalist: youtube.com/c/MiguelGarciaFernandez :mentalist:
  • JimMorr wrote:

    Our popularity is probably 10% of KoW. In USA probably less in EU more.
    This is a general reply not aimed at you JimMorr I simply used the quote as a starting point for my post :)



    I would say it is much more geography dependent. KoW is basically non existent in south eastern Europe and generally whenever it is brought up there will be a couple of people to shame the individual for suggesting people play "kids game". A very similar thing existed during the years when LOTR was competing for the attention of fantasy players and obviously LOTR did much better than KoW to the point there was a dedicated playing community for a couple of years which is dead now. Yet T9A is here and growing. It grows because people in the community set apart time to attract new people. There are many different aspects of the game that can appeal to different people and it is a skill to pick the right approach with each individual you present the game to. The problem often comes that people introducing others are biased to a certain aspect of the game/hobby and will seek to attract like minded individuals. There is nothing wrong about that but people should be aware some groups of people are more likely to be attracted to T9A in its current form than others.

    I had spent years teaching Warhammer to kid age 8-12 in a weekly workshop that used to be run by the club I was in and it is really hard to adapt to various people especially if their interests go against the tutors preferences so it can sometimes feel like a chore rather than joy to bring new people into the hobby.


    Number attraction for overwhelming majority of people are miniatures which means when we as community members play our games we need to be visible. For example a good way to attract new blood are open door days in high schools. Go talk to the local headmaster present the hobby for what it is - a tool for socialising, while developing cognitive and artistic abilities - which also ensures the disposable income of teens is less likely to be spend on harmful substances. I cannot stress how many times that last part won over people.


    But what is crucial to understand is that we will win few people over if we just show them the game and send them to the internet. All of us if we want to see this hobby continue to grow need to be ready to tutor the aspirants for a period of at least 6 months, though usually around 12 - before they get hooked and become confidant and skilled on their own to join the "circus" so to speak.


    After the ETC this year I am starting the T9A On the Go in Croatia with MDF cutouts. Once the Legendary Rule Book is completed I will make several Hardcover Copies and distribute them to gaming clubs, gaming caffes and similar place in Zagreb with a SLIM Printout of all AB, alongside a selection of MDF infantry, cavalry, beasts, large infantry, large cavalry, large beast and a couple of gigantic, warmachines and characters. Something anyone can test out on a games night if they see people playing with real miniatures or if they explore the club's collections on their own.

    Yes it will be a serious financial investment but one that will give T9A a much stronger "market penetration" in Croatia compared to now. Not to mention access to "cheap" MDF armies to play the game while the person slowly assembles it's miniatures army will be another boon.

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  • Giladis wrote:

    But what is crucial to understand is that we will win few people over if we just show them the game and send them to the internet. All of us if we want to see this hobby continue to grow need to be ready to tutor the aspirants for a period of at least 6 months, though usually around 12 - before they get hooked and become confidant and skilled on their own to join the "circus" so to speak.

    After the ETC this year I am starting the T9A On the Go in Croatia with MDF cutouts. Once the Legendary Rule Book is completed I will make several Hardcover Copies and distribute them to gaming clubs, gaming caffes and similar place in Zagreb with a SLIM Printout of all AB, alongside a selection of MDF infantry, cavalry, beasts, large infantry, large cavalry, large beast and a couple of gigantic, warmachines and characters. Something anyone can test out on a games night if they see people playing with real miniatures or if they explore the club's collections on their own.

    Yes it will be a serious financial investment but one that will give T9A a much stronger "market penetration" in Croatia compared to now. Not to mention access to "cheap" MDF armies to play the game while the person slowly assembles it's miniatures army will be another boon.
    That is actually quite a good idea.

    I have access to a very good quality and cheap printing service across the street from where I work. I have some RPG's I printed some time ago to have hard copies and this is the result:



    I am looking forward to get my hands on the Legendary Edition to print enough copies to hand as a gift to people I know might be interested, so I can get them hooked for good, and leave a couple of copies in the store where I play D&D. I've tried the "here: this is the forum where the rules are at. It's free" approach, and met with disappointment.

    I've bought the rulebook, the magic cards, and the paths of magic in Amazon, but at the cost I can get these printed here, it is worth just doing this locally and getting them to possible prospects and try our luck.

    I also hope that, once we get some traction, I can help organise some tournaments or small events down here in Johor Bahru. But until I get a medium to showcase what this is about, I don't really think I am going anywhere with it for now.
    LET ME SHOW YOU HOW TO PAINT YOUR MINIATURES EASY AND FAST WITH A NO-BRAINER TECHNIQUE:
    :mentalist: youtube.com/c/MiguelGarciaFernandez :mentalist: