DL 2.3 Update Suggestions Thread

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  • Mesmarizing Plummage - The model (and any R&F model in its unit) gains +1 Offensive Skill. An enemy model having attacks allocated onto it from a model with this manifestation has its defensive skill set to; the models Defensive Skill - 1, or the models Agility, whichever is lower. (The defensive skill is only set this way for attacks allocated onto the enemy from a model with this manifestation).

    Hot Blood - The model (and the unit it joins) gains +1" Advance during their overrun and pursuit rolls. Additionally, during the first round of combat and at the beginning of each new round of combat, given the unit was in combat in the previous turn, the model (and all R&F models in the unit) gain +1 Agility to a maximum of +3. (Once out of combat, the unit retains the agility but can never stack it more than 3 times during the battle).

    Succubi lose Smothering Coils, OS set to 5. DS set to 3.
    Talon Scythes - Ignore Parry, +1 to hit against Infantry type. Any time the model makes a successful to hit roll, roll a d6. On a score of 4+ that melee attack has its AP set to 3.
    (This takes away from the high res "Killiness" of the succubi, and moves their niche greatly towards armored foes.)

    Mymridons. Strength set to 5. Ap set to 0. OS and DS set to 4.
    Devastating Charge set to (+1 Strength, +1 AP) Always have Battle Focus.
    Lose Whipcrack Tails, Lowered value on Smothering Coils.
    (This makes them niche towards being really killy against most monster types, and gives them a decent chance on matching damage against infantry; But not as much killing potential vs most Infantry due to only having 1 AP, and that being on the charge).
  • After a decent amount of battles, I don't really like the rule that gives +2 free tokens to the enemy. I think it should be removed. This is becouse the army in general is really weak against magic, specially magic misiles. I know it is one of the army weaknesess, but I think this is well implemented with the absence of binding scrolls and magic resistance. Any master of divination or pyromancy obliterates the daemon army too easyly...

    The H spell feels a little weak. I would give it multiple wounds D3 instead of 2, so it would be more dangerous for single models like heroes or eagles. It needs more armour penetration too.

    About armour, I don't get why daemons armies don't really have a good way to deal with high armour. Our units are expensive and don't have too much static bonus for combat scoring, so opposing heroes with 1+ armour are too much a problem, becouse they can nulify any unit they want. Fortitude saves are a problem too, becouse they tend to be cheap, and we don't have almost any way for dealing with it (other armies have better ways, becouse our fire attacks cannot be turned off if the enemy has fire proof). Problems with high armour and special saves WAS NOT in our army weaknesses.

    I've talked yet about manifestations. I think they are pretty weak in general, and more importantly, we lack any defensive manifestation. I think you are reworking at this point at 2.3, so I will not insist more.

    Now, I will suggest some things about specific units:

    - Maw: the base is simply too big, and it is not taken in account for the model cost.
    - Omen: he needs deff 8 and aegis 5+.
    - Sentinel: omniscience is not very usefull with current book. I suggest adding some other ways of using extra veil tokens (like WoTDG have). I suggest to give this sentinel an ability to choose between a couple of magic lores (like essence of free mind), or directly mixing them (i.e. chosing spells from different lores)
    - Scourge: he is too weak and too expensive. I get you are not going to give him any agility (that is what this model needs) so at least you should make him cheaper and give him in-built lethal strike, off10 and armour 3.
    - Imps: my personal worst unit. The design is really good, but I think they should have the old "mark of change" (their choice of divine, flamming or infernal fire). Of course, remove Reload! becouse it hurts, and give accurate, or something.
    - Eidolons: they need range 24" so badly... 2 health points per model should be nice too.
    - Titanslayer: I think its impact hits should remove special saves (like fortitude) and have armour piercing 3. If this unit is supposed to kill monsters by one single charge, at least let it get it done. Another way is giving lethal strike to this hits.
    - Hoaders: return them to deff 6 and add the new mirored scales.
    - Blazing glories: I feel them the worst design from the begining. This simply does not work. Too fragile, too expensive, it has near no use when wounded, no meaningfull manifestations...
    - Veil serpents: right now they are useless with no tarskin. The conclave is too expensive too. I think they are going to improve when you remake the manifestations in general.
    - Flies: I like them but they are a little weak. Give an extra point of AP and they will be ok.
  • Dragus wrote:

    After a decent amount of battles, I don't really like the rule that gives +2 free tokens to the enemy. I think it should be removed. This is becouse the army in general is really weak against magic, specially magic misiles. I know it is one of the army weaknesess, but I think this is well implemented with the absence of binding scrolls and magic resistance. Any master of divination or pyromancy obliterates the daemon army too easyly...

    The H spell feels a little weak. I would give it multiple wounds D3 instead of 2, so it would be more dangerous for single models like heroes or eagles. It needs more armour penetration too.

    About armour, I don't get why daemons armies don't really have a good way to deal with high armour. Our units are expensive and don't have too much static bonus for combat scoring, so opposing heroes with 1+ armour are too much a problem, becouse they can nulify any unit they want. Fortitude saves are a problem too, becouse they tend to be cheap, and we don't have almost any way for dealing with it (other armies have better ways, becouse our fire attacks cannot be turned off if the enemy has fire proof). Problems with high armour and special saves WAS NOT in our army weaknesses.

    I've talked yet about manifestations. I think they are pretty weak in general, and more importantly, we lack any defensive manifestation. I think you are reworking at this point at 2.3, so I will not insist more.

    Now, I will suggest some things about specific units:

    - Maw: the base is simply too big, and it is not taken in account for the model cost.
    - Omen: he needs deff 8 and aegis 5+.
    - Sentinel: omniscience is not very usefull with current book. I suggest adding some other ways of using extra veil tokens (like WoTDG have). I suggest to give this sentinel an ability to choose between a couple of magic lores (like essence of free mind), or directly mixing them (i.e. chosing spells from different lores)
    - Scourge: he is too weak and too expensive. I get you are not going to give him any agility (that is what this model needs) so at least you should make him cheaper and give him in-built lethal strike, off10 and armour 3.
    - Imps: my personal worst unit. The design is really good, but I think they should have the old "mark of change" (their choice of divine, flamming or infernal fire). Of course, remove Reload! becouse it hurts, and give accurate, or something.
    - Eidolons: they need range 24" so badly... 2 health points per model should be nice too.
    - Titanslayer: I think its impact hits should remove special saves (like fortitude) and have armour piercing 3. If this unit is supposed to kill monsters by one single charge, at least let it get it done. Another way is giving lethal strike to this hits.
    - Hoaders: return them to deff 6 and add the new mirored scales.
    - Blazing glories: I feel them the worst design from the begining. This simply does not work. Too fragile, too expensive, it has near no use when wounded, no meaningfull manifestations...
    - Veil serpents: right now they are useless with no tarskin. The conclave is too expensive too. I think they are going to improve when you remake the manifestations in general.
    - Flies: I like them but they are a little weak. Give an extra point of AP and they will be ok.
    Agreed on most points, although I’m reluctant to ask for “too much” as I’m not getting roasted at the table. Having written that here’s what I’ve noticed:

    - Scourge agility zero and rage is not working. If I get to one wound left, I’m not charging as the odds of me dying before I swing is usually too much to risk. So I hop around hiding with a 1000 point “combat” Daemon.

    - my opponents love the free veil tokens - especially the armies (UD) that can have many divine dice so I can remove many models. Sadness.

    - H spell I’d rather have D6 shots as I think that would be more useable on average. REALLY loved the old + aegis save for hereditary. Not broken but insanely useful.

    - Every time I attack with Myrmidons and say “ST 5, AP1”, my opponents reply “good”. They are barely threatening with AP1 - and no good reason for them to be only AP1.

    - Omen aegis 6 is poo. People are starting to learn about the Omen. Easy to get to 900 points for only +6 aegis is not cool.

    - Sentinel should Auto get mix lores. It needs to be VERY good at magic for being huge and crap in combat.

    - Imps with no AP and reload makes my head hurt. They are never on the table except for theme.

    - I actually play Titanslayer and I’m noticing the better the player, the less chance there’s a monster on the table. 2 AP is a curious thing. What if it was adjusted to work against large also? I can’t even charge a VS Bell and it’s taunting me, lol.

    - Courtesans Razor rule is cool, but it’s harder to pull off than you think against great players. And the units it would be really good against aren’t worth the points for the effort.

    - it’s interesting that the only armour we have is the shooty chariot unit. Hope harvester.

    - Bloat flies are almost there. Not sure what to do though.

    - Veil Serpents shouldn’t fight for magic dice (for many points) there’s no reason they can’t have a barbed shooting, or Ravens Wing style attack.

    - can’t use Lemurs, they’re barely good at sticking around and are boring. For whatever that’s worth, lol.

    - Brazen Beasts are good, but do they have to be THAT much of a limp noodle after charge? Thank heavens for 4 wounds.

    I’m also finding that I almost have more dice than spells to cast as I can 2 dice so many. Love that.

    Haven’t used the other units too much so I’ll hold on those.
  • Could we please make the Scourge Rage +1Att, +2 Agi per wound taken?

    This way at 1 wound he is Agi 9 on charge. It represents how much he is pi##ed off.

    2nd thing on the overall design, it always feels like having a short blanket. The army idea is to have btb, fire, magic, hammers, anvils and so on, but you actually end up everytime or

    1) taking something of everything having nothing really strong, so that you are weak in magic, weak in fire, weak in combat
    2) taking all of a kind so that you are good in magic OR good in fire OR good in combat

    And I don't think this is how the army is supposed to be?
  • The army is overall strong and competative.
    Its more about making the unused entries usable, think of the other ABs arguing over a single AB magic item being worthless or a core unit being 1-2ppm overpriced to be competative.
    And to make the feel of the army better and more fun.
    Such as creating shooting options which actually works and supports the quick playstyle of the army which it currently does not.
    Make the manifestation entries more solid and cleansing out what is worthless or unneeded.
    Creating more fun builds and options for characters so that they stop being beneath what they should be. (Personally id say if they cannot be stronger than they currently are then nerf them. This would allow us more room to customize our characters. Higher point allowance for the characters, more impactful manifestations for character only manifestations and actuall defensive ones. Currently building DL characters are the least fun of the army. We have the lowest point allowance out of any faction in the game. We have the least amount of addable complexity per character in the game, we have the least impactful upgrades for characters of any faction in the game. This needs to change or just move the monster characters out of the character section Into special so that something good can come out for the standard characters.)

    The troops of the book is awesome and the majority of them are so well designed with different point ranges and less units filling the same role than in any other DL faction.

    My rating of the book currently out of a feel pov would be.

    Movement 8/10 Its great, some wierd entries.

    Magic 7/10 designed around spam and this they truly have managed.

    Combat 7/10 strong picks and units of every specialisation is represented, works really well with support magic.

    Troops 8/10 many options and several homeruns, some wierd entries which imo needs entire redesigns with the shooting options being the ones not working with the army.

    Manifestations for troops 6/10 some great but there is a lot of deadweight or unneeded manifestations. Here many manifestations overlap with eachothers with all the veil tokens generation being the most obvious.

    Characters 5/10 they arent great, some are kinda cool but there is too little the player can decide on each characters output. Some rules feel forced onto the frame and could with ease be taken away both to lower cost, lower complexity, increase allowance and enable more worthwhile character manifestations.

    Manifestations for characters 2/10 This is simply bad, uneventful, low allowance, single layer, shares spot with unit buffing. This is the unfun part of the book. The slow spot, the bad.
    I have seen plenty of no manifestation GDs in list or single manifestation GDs.
    This isnt good.... Think about if naked HbE characters or WDG characters were similarly good as upgraded ones... disheartening is the Word.
  • New

    So after a bunch of games, here are my thoughts about some changes to the book. I hope you find them helpful:
    Dark Fire - should loose accurate, gain QTF


    Iron Husk: +1Res, to a maximum of 6 (75P)


    Brimstone Secretions: Attacks against the model (and the R&F models in its unit) loose divine attacks (if they had it), and the model (and the R&F models in its unit) gain +1 aegis (maximum 4+) against spells 30P (45P)


    Hot blood: the model (and each R&F models in its unit) gains devastating charge (+1 offensive skill and ignore parry) 20P(40P)


    Segmented shell: Attacks against the model (and the R&F models in its unit) loose Multiple wounds (if they had it) 50P (75P)


    Maw: New rule "massive Bulk: the model has res 6 against non-magical attacks"


    Courtesan: New rule "iron core: the model has res 6 against spells"


    Omen: aegis 5+
    throne: 125P


    Sentinel: Omniscience: the model knows all spells of its chosen lore


    Scourge: HP 7, Whenever the model loses a Health Point, it gains +1 Attack Value and +1 Def. whenever it gains a Health Point, it suffers −1 Attack Value and -1 Def.
    So getting hurt awakens its combat prowess, dealing more attacks and deflecting more hits. would fit the concept I think.



    Imps: 0-2 units/army instead of 0-40 models
    - Firestarter: The standard bearer becomes a wizard apprentice (thaumaturgy) 65P We have so many spells castable with 1 or 2 dice, I never found myself using 2 dice for a bound spell, especially one that the army has an abundance of casters for anyway. As an apprentice, the spell will at least be used if you bought it, and the max of 2 units provides spamming.
    - energy bolts: accurate


    Threshing engine: Horde Thresher and Legion Thresher Chassis S5


    Hoarders: mirorred scales(8P) instead of dextrous tentacles, living shield instead of kaleidoscopic flesh (4P)
    fits their role a lot better, and than all manifestations are useful, so there really is choice


    Blazing glory: Falling star ... The model counts as a champion for the purpose of Duels ...
    and a minor point drop would also be needed, some 20 or 30P.


    Brazen Beasts: Red Haze 15 P


    Veil Serpents: unnatural roots instead of mirrored scales (the unit is supposed to support others in melee)


    Bloat flies: the hits caused by acid blood should work like hits from Quicksilver lash (alchemy), the unit is supposed to work vs high armored targets.
    For each special save the models fails Melee attacks, the models that caused the wounding hit immediately suffers 1 hit that wounds on a role equal to or greater that its armour save (1 never wounds, 6 always wounds), before any casualties are removed, distributed onto the models Health pool.
    And Att 3 Ap1 is enough, with better retaliation vs. high armour, weakening the normal output should provide a point raise, and the unit is a little more specialized vs its intended target.
  • New

    Beef up Gigantic GDs.
    Fix Flies,Hoarders,imps,blazing glories
    Bring down hounds
    I am the fat Turk that infiltrated the Norwegian Druid Caste.

    I would have been better than you if I could roll a 4 on 2D6.

    To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of ELVES.

    Sylvan Elves
    Dread Elves
    Beast Herds
    Daemonic Legions
    Warriors of the Dark Gods
    Storm Cast Eternals (WAIT WHAT?)
  • New

    Some suggestions:

    - Having a character like the former daemon prince would be good. This daemon prince could have any marks (and pay for it) and will allow people to play something else than the Great daemons. This prince should not have any dominion if he is general, could me a magic wizard and could open specific manifestations to heralds. Such an alternative will give new options for list creation.

    - Daemons should have magic banners (like any other army). A manifestation like centipede legs should loose "dominant" then.
  • New

    Another thing. Standards are totally useless for the army maybe except lemures. Make them usable somehow?
    -1 on CR when doing supernal? a weak bound spell? magical banner manifestations?
    I am the fat Turk that infiltrated the Norwegian Druid Caste.

    I would have been better than you if I could roll a 4 on 2D6.

    To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of ELVES.

    Sylvan Elves
    Dread Elves
    Beast Herds
    Daemonic Legions
    Warriors of the Dark Gods
    Storm Cast Eternals (WAIT WHAT?)
  • New

    I've played

    Sentinel, Scourge, Omen, Harbingers, Lemures, Succubi,Imps, Brazens, Fiends, Harvesters, furies, hounds, threshing engines

    Thoughts on the unit I've played:

    OK units: Omen, Harbinger, Lemures, Succubi, Brazens, Harvesters, furies

    units to be improved: Sentinel (if on Strixian should gain +1 Re, +1 Hp or something else to not die), Imps (Reload, 4+ base with 24" range no accurate no qtf, Str5 Ap0, this should be 3+ base or 4+ accurate/qtf and Ap 1 at least), Fiends (4 att), hounds (maybe slightly price reduction), threshing engines (165 pts. for d3+1 impact hits feels weird)

    units to be redesigned: Scourge

    On the rules: +2 tokens to the opponent is wrong. Even my opponents are surprised with a "this makes no sense but a big thank you!" face. +1 to cast would be nice always (not only for 1,2 dices), but I know is asking to much.
    The main problem is that you find some armies that are complete OP when compaired to daemons (e.g. ID,UD,Eos,VS). Every unit from these armies seems so better priced and so much stronger than daemons' ones.

    Taking out the 2 tokens and giving +1 cast for daemons would probably rebalance a little this great "disbalance" there is now.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Kosta ().