DL 2.3 Update Suggestions Thread

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  • R3 Without
    18x0,5 = 9, 9x0,66 = 6 done

    R3 With
    18x0,66 = 12, 12x0,8 =10 done.

    Thats 66% increase

    R5 Without
    18x05 = 9, 9x0,33 =3 done

    R5 with
    18x0,66 = 12, 12x0,5 = 6

    Thats a 100% increase

    R6 without
    18x0,5= 9, 9x0,16 = 1,5

    R6 with
    18x0,66 = 12, 12x0,33 = 4

    Thats an increase of 166%

    However if they were to lose their AP landing on 0 which were what we were discussing. Then that is possibly a 33% reduction in all these cases.
    Landing it at these amount of wounds done vs their intended targets.

    R3 Large
    6,66 wounds

    R5 Large
    4 wounds

    R6 Large
    2,66 wounds

    Its with that general reduction in power, the loss of AP 2 that I made these suggestions. The bulk of their power would come against their intended targets :)
  • AlexCat wrote:

    So, you're not satisfied with +66%/100%/166% increase in damage against intended target? Thats not enough for you?
    In your case its from 166% vs r4arm0 to 1100% vs r6arm5 with 350% average vs r5arm2. Too much, dont you think?
    Might be too much yeah, but just staring at pure numbers might be misguiding no? Since my suggestion also have the base Fiend nerfed against an avarage opponent compared to now but it retaining its current state (- the additional + to hit) versus its intended targets with the addition of MW2 added intop.
    Perhaps I should dial down my suggestion to

    Smother: Attack Attribute – Close Combat.If the attack is allocated towards a Large model, it gains +2 to AP and Multiple Wounds (2, against Large).

    No matter with what (and even if) Something happends to the fiends. Can we agree @AlexCat that if Fiends are worse against a general opponent (not Large) They should be better against their intended target?
  • No matter with what (and even if) Something happends to the fiends. Can we agree @AlexCat that if Fiends are worse against a general opponent (not Large) They should be better against their intended target?
    No.
    I think the gap between their normal output and preferable target one is already large enough. No need to make it even bigger. If they are to be nerfed, do it evenly.
  • AlexCat wrote:

    No matter with what (and even if) Something happends to the fiends. Can we agree @AlexCat that if Fiends are worse against a general opponent (not Large) They should be better against their intended target?
    No.I think the gap between their normal output and preferable target one is already large enough. No need to make it even bigger. If they are to be nerfed, do it evenly.
    Fair enough, a cheaper and lower elite unit then?
  • I have a general thought question.

    DL are an army of specialists. How much of the proliferation of certain picks (fiends, hounds, gremlins) are because that is what DL players feel the meta is and how much is because those choices are by far the best option?

    If DL players are picking them is it because they are facing, Magic (Gremlins), Large (Fiends), Armoured (Hounds) and all those choices are able to get the match up required?

    If that's the case, even slightly (and maybe not in every case point) how difficult is it/will it be when it comes to deciding upon adjustments/nerfs? After all if the designers give players options to deal with certain threats but then penalise them for taking those threats in respect to the meta they are facing, that isn't a good experience right?

    I only say because although I like fiends for example, my local meta doesn't have lots of large opponents and I often find the fiends underperform (meaning I have to buff them with magic - often 2 spells, for many of their combats) except the one time I faced OK when they were great.
  • Please stop reducing the number of APs in the army, so there is already a feeling that there is only one working tool left - to throw an enemy with a number of attacks, since there is almost no quality (I'm talking about the presence of the S parameter in combination with an adequate AP), on the one hand, you did in the book these parameters are an order of magnitude smaller and added specialization, but other books then remained without exception in armor. I do not defend clawed fiends as they are, I personally do not like them and I take them only because all the other options are really bad, but an additional unit that will remove the AP or increase the strength and remove the AP is a strong weakening.
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  • AlexCat wrote:

    So, you're not satisfied with +66%/100%/166% increase in damage against intended target? Thats not enough for you?
    In your case its from 166% vs r4arm0 to 1100% vs r6arm5 with 350% average vs r5arm2. Too much, dont you think?
    Very missleading.

    too be a specialist, a unit has to have the potential to kill the target unit without also being killed itself or at least staying above 25% health to not give up points.
    Clawed fiends are currently not like this. The Smother rule is more of a fluffy or niche rule which is fine because the unit is an all rounder.

    I'm in the camp of "not everything needs to be super specialized".

    But if they were to tweak the Fiends, I would change Smother to Multiwound against large. And just rely on magic buffs for re-rolls, buffs, debuffs.
    This would also help against Large Cowboys.

    Might want to add a multiwound against standard in the army list to help against standard size cowboys too.
  • torelll wrote:

    Please stop reducing the number of APs in the army, so there is already a feeling that there is only one working tool left - to throw an enemy with a number of attacks, since there is almost no quality (I'm talking about the presence of the S parameter in combination with an adequate AP), on the one hand, you did in the book these parameters are an order of magnitude smaller and added specialization, but other books then remained without exception in armor. I do not defend clawed fiends as they are, I personally do not like them and I take them only because all the other options are really bad, but an additional unit that will remove the AP or increase the strength and remove the AP is a strong weakening.
    Agree. I’m baffled that people are asking for LESS AP? Fiends and Succubi are historically associated with AP claws - why change that? Strength 6 on Fiends is definitely not the answer, because just giving everything strength 6 would “be the answer”.

    I’m already accepting (but frustrated) that Myrmidons have AP 1 - that I have to continuously remind my opponents because they don’t believe me, lol.
  • Stop with the ultra specialization please.

    Much titan chariots
    Wow blazing glories
    Very Eidelons
    Too Misers
    So threshers

    It is impossible to point ultra specialized units. Admins seems to point these for the best possible scenario. This is also similiar for Pathfinders in SE (they are pointed as if playing against t3 2+ elf cav every game). This doesnt work, lists show it, why the insistance on this approach?

    Why are hounds, fiends and gremlins are taken? Because they are costed ok (a little cheap maybe) for all situations and very good in specific situations.
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  • ZardukZarakhil wrote:

    I have a general thought question.

    DL are an army of specialists. How much of the proliferation of certain picks (fiends, hounds, gremlins) are because that is what DL players feel the meta is and how much is because those choices are by far the best option?

    If DL players are picking them is it because they are facing, Magic (Gremlins), Large (Fiends), Armoured (Hounds) and all those choices are able to get the match up required?

    If that's the case, even slightly (and maybe not in every case point) how difficult is it/will it be when it comes to deciding upon adjustments/nerfs? After all if the designers give players options to deal with certain threats but then penalise them for taking those threats in respect to the meta they are facing, that isn't a good experience right?

    I only say because although I like fiends for example, my local meta doesn't have lots of large opponents and I often find the fiends underperform (meaning I have to buff them with magic - often 2 spells, for many of their combats) except the one time I faced OK when they were great.
    It is the hard part to get right, but it also the foundation from where to go, but generally different local metas does not matter as much on the whole scale if you combine them over a period of time and what is more important is on what power level the things used in the book is compared to other armies, like this:
    -If DL is over performing then we have to look at what is causing this and tweak those entries (we still probably need to tweak the less used entries but it is much harder to now how much )
    -If DL is OK in the game overall the then we can mostly look at entries not taken or specific pices RT/TT want investigated/adjusted.
    -If DL is underperforming then you have to look how to boost the army overall and looking into what areas the army is weakest ad bolster that part of the book.

    After the summer when people come back from vacations we take a new stance, looking at the past half years data collection and judge where the book sits in the above three categories.
    We already good instructin on what to look at during this summer and can prepare some things, like the AP vs strenght question , but decision on what to do can not be made unitl we have a data based foundation to stand on, earlier these has come a bit to late into the process, but I hope we can use them as a foundation this time around.

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    The post was edited 1 time, last by AlFiKa ().

  • New

    Hi people

    Just back from ESC/ETC. It was a great experience and I had lots of fun. I was sad that Lori, Shipsnik and DanT were not attending.

    Sorry that I missed you AlexCat. The ETC can be confusing sometimes and we (Portugal) never played in a table close to Russia.

    I add the great pleasure of playing against Finlad so I spoke a little with Nightwun (it was great).

    I played against Giladis UD in the ESC (win for me 11-9)

    And under counsel of Lori I spoke my mind about the army to him. So that you guys know this is the resume of what I say.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    First this is the best book I ever played and I am having a blast playing it. Congrats to the design team.

    Second I honestly only see to units that need redesigning and I do not have suggestions for that (DanT is guilty of that)
    that are the Imps and the Scourge.

    Thirds all the other things can be done with point adjustements or changing the manifestations available for certain units.
    I did not get into details because I trust the team of designers and pricing to do it better than me.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This is it.

    I will be reporting my games in the feedback so if you are curious you can have a look at it.

    all the best

    Paulo
    Dread Elves first and foremost
  • New

    Secondary post about the current pickrates for this years DL, what follows bellow are the units that actually saw some picks and what their manifestations were, I have already done the top picks and how they are affecting how DL is being played.

    Display Spoiler

    Hope Harvester:8
    Mark of Eternal Champion: 2
    Aura of Despair: 3
    Engine of Damnation: 3
    Chilling Yawn: 2

    The Hope Harvester, our only viable shooting option. It doesnt dominate lists which is good and the question is in what extent is it taken and together with what type of lists. 28% of lists brought atleast one HH and with 2 lists bringing two, their manifestation picks point towards the unit benefitting from bringing some type of upgrade. Segmented shell and Sorcerous Antennae being void from the actuall picks. Further we can see that the HH is either being brought either together with Sentinel or the Maw and Court combo in 66% of the lists that brough one, so its either used as a tool to block LoS or to dump the additional veil tokens that either would be lossed thanks to the sentinels presence.
    Overall a piece that sees some niche use as either a LoS blocker or Veil tokens dumper, since even the picks which didnt bring the monster combo or sentinel brought Hellhounds with grasping probocsis x2


    Display Spoiler

    Brazen Beasts:6
    Avarage Size: 4
    Spread between: 3-6
    Standard: 1
    Musician: 6
    Champion: 4
    Red Haze: 2
    Whipcrack Tail: 2

    The unit sees useage in every unit size with a lean on the cheaper throw away unit. 23% of the lists brought atleast one unit of brazens. 0% of the lists that brought a unit of brazen beasts used a character on Great Beast of Prophecy to join the unit. The unit seems to be built around the initial impact and thus standard isnt seen as a competative choice for this unit as only one was present and Musician is seen as a must with 100% pickrate. The unit is either brought with one of the two offensive manifestations or as cheap as possible with only command option to be used as a throw away spear. Neither of the defensive options Chitinous Scales or Incendiary Ichor or seen as a viable choice, my guess is that Chitinous scales akka 5+ AS isnt even an option thanks to the cost and that 5+ doesnt amount up to anything in this game (just ask the elves) and that Incendiary Ichor comes with the inherent weakness of always having flaming activated. Centipede Legs isnt seen as the unit is fast enough and is simply outshined by other options.
    I personally feel that this unit is in an okay place and that its mostly cost related internally and externally, with the exception with Chitinous Scales and Incendiary Ichor being too weak or harmful for the model to be worth their salt.



    Display Spoiler

    Veil Serpents: 13
    Avarage Size: 3,5
    Spread between: 3-6
    Champion: 9

    A bit harder unit to analyze thanks to the nature of Morphlings. Would perhaps have been interesting if the data team had put the question which manifestation feels strongest in their internal balance gathering? However we can see that the avarage unit size is rather small unit sizes with the avarage being 3,5. 42% of the lists brought the Veil Serpents and 7 out of the 9 champions were present at unit sizes of 3 models, my guess is that if you invest points into numbers you will increase the risk and directly the reward for the opponent to seize them.
    All in all a unit that seems to be in a healthy place, However I do question the usability of Mirrored Scales on this model, if the intended goal is for it to be a support unit then it wont want to create a front charge situation whereas it wont get much out of mirrored scales. Feels like Aura of Despair, Unnatural Roots or even Third Eye would be a much better option, especially since when we see them in the size of 3 they seem to try and stay away from opponents acting like a mobile casting unit.



    Overall these units see a healty amount of play and there is a clear trend among their manifestation picks. Either point changes to the not taken ones are in order or in some cases we should try to look around to see if we can get a better fit for them within the manifestation list or even have some manifestations redesigned if they arent useful at all.
    Next up are the problem childs of the book and what is really worth do discuss.
    @fjugin are these type of "analysis" useful to bring up?
  • New

    So what isnt picked in DL these days, or I should ofc say at the ETC. What is left to look at is the least picked or ignored units. Aswell as what manifestation picks are attractive for characters.

    Display Spoiler

    Sentinel of Nukuja: 4
    General: 4
    Throne of Oracle: 4
    Greater Dominion: 4
    Divination Master: 2
    Evocation Master: 1
    Thaumaturgy Master: 1
    Mark of Eternal Champion: 3
    Aura of Despair: 1

    Looking at the Sentinel entry we can first see that 19% of the lists brought one, once brought it is always the general and 3 lists brought it together with a harbringer one brought an Omen to accompany it. Not much can be said about its path picks as there arent that many do analys. It has Two lists only brought Mark of the Eternal champion (MOTEC), one brought MOTEC together with Aura of Despair aswell as one that went with the Sentinel Naked, in other words the steps between builds are either 0 points- 45 points -95 points and only MOTEC is seen as a viable options for the model to boost its magic phase. So the avarage spendage on the Sentinel is 46 points or 30% of its allowance, its obvious that there is a lack of viable manifestation options for our "best mage"
    Strixian Spirit isnt picked once and even at 20 points isnt seen as a viable option, I doubt that it would be that even if it is free. 3 of the lists that brought the Sentinel brought atleast one Hope Harvester and I believe that having only the Hope Harvester as a possible veil token drop is hurting the Sentinels viablility thanks to Omniscience, we simply have too many veil tokens to use and will on avarage have to throw away atleast 4 Veil tokens with having 3 in store without being able to use it or in the worst case, or 7 thrown away with having three in store without being used if you never draw the 1 or 2 card when generating veil tokens.

    All in all the Sentinel is in a pretty bad spot internally, it has a very low amount of options actually being worth anything for it except MOTEC, the strixian spirit isnt internally strong.
    This unit needs both rebalencing aswell as some effort to get worthy manifestations/ abilities to pick from. Because it currently has almost nothing that is worthwhile.



    Display Spoiler

    Courtesan of Cibaresh: 2
    Witchcraft Apprentice: 1
    Divination Adept: 1
    Brimstone Secretions: 1
    Kaleidoscopic Flesh: 1
    Chitinous scales: 1
    Mesmerising Plummage: 2
    Iron Husk: 1

    So all in all 9% of lists brought the Courtesan, it was either brought together with the Maw or the deciever and never as the general. My guess is that its Greater dominion is most likely mostly useful for itself aswell as people wanting to keep this model as cheap as possible since they do not trust in that it will survive. Why do I guess that this is the reason? The Courtesan is the only GD in the entire field that is brought as an Apprentice which and I am guessing that if it were possible it wouldnt even be fielded as a mage at all.
    The two builds that were present were Brimstone Secretions, Kaleidoscopic Flesh, Chitinous scales, Mesmerising Plummage 135 points
    And Iron Husk, Mesmerizing Plumage. 150 points.
    So the avarage Courtesan uses 95% of its allowance on defensive manifestations. There seems to be no real direction with these builds to create something, just filling a hole in its durability
    It seems as the Courtesan is the only GD that put its entire point allowance into defensive abilities which is interesting in itself, however only Iron Husk and Chitinous scales are manifestations that works as a type of hard defense for the model.

    From what I can see the Courtesan of Cibaresh is a model that is viewed as too brittle or too expensive to be able to do the job that it is designed to do and as thus it isnt viewed as competative.
    This model most likely needs better manifestation picks to be able to both achieve an acceptible level of protection to be able to start looking into offensive manifestations.



    Display Spoiler

    Maw of Akaan: 3
    General: 3
    Greater Dominion: 2
    Evocation Adept: 2
    Witchcraft Master: 1
    Iron Husk: 2
    Unhinging Jaw: 1
    Mirrored Scales: 1
    Centipede Legs: 1
    Digestive Vomit: 1

    The Maw is brought by 14% of the lists, always as a general since it seems to have both the survivability against ranged threats aswell as a useful greater dominion. It is played with a Courtesan, a Miser aswell as a 2x Harbringer list. And the builds are as following.
    Iron Husk, Unhinging Jaw
    Mirrored Scales, Centipede Legs, Digestive Vomit
    Iron Husk
    To me it seems as if either you made the choice between Iron Husk for survivability or Mirrored Scales to try and make use of the immense base. They either payed 110 points or 150 points so the Maw players used on avarage 82% of their allowance which is better than the Sentinel atleast. But the fact that Iron Husk eats up 73% of the models allowance is scary and kinda Counteractive if what we are after is different builds.
    Any way, the Maw needs help just as the big GDs with some better differences and choices in manifestations. The only defensive manifestation that seems to be of any use for it is the extremly expensive Iron Husk



    Display Spoiler

    Miser of Sugulag:1
    Thaumaturgy Master: 1
    Mirrored Scales: 1
    Centipede Legs: 1
    Divining Snout: 1

    Only a single Miser is present at ETC 4,7% pick rate, It is brought together with a Maw general. The build uses 85 points or 56% of its allowance. And it is played with MSU Succubi build together with a single 10x Lemures and 2x12 Hell Hounds for damage. The Divining snout I guess is since he played it with the intent to catch combat units and binding them in place at the right time, thats why I guess that he brought centipede legs together with it aswell. Mirrored scales is probably used to try and keep CR as positive as possible in the favour of the Miser, and perhaps Thaumaturgy was used both to try and nerf the opponents block, since it were comboed with an evocation adept, perhaps it can try to hold the opponent in place and try to nuke it with comets?
    All in all it isnt a popular pick and it most likely only works as an anvil on the table, an expensive anvil which might? have a hard time bringing back its points.
    The build seems to be created with a clear intent?
    Howver something is needed for this character, aswell as something that helps it atleast to some extent morph its role from only being a wall to get through.



    Display Spoiler

    Vanadra’s Scourge: 0

    To make this clear I will stay away from doing comparisons from the old Scourge since this seems to only inspire kneejerk reactions from a couple of individuals when this model has been questioned.

    The only character never picked. Most likely thanks to two aspects, points versus what it brings, as well as its current design.
    All in all it has great mobility with the implementation of differentiation between its fly and ground movement. its Greater dominion is kinda niche as not every model in the game has parry and thanks to this it will most likely not be picked if another choice is brought, the first paragraph of it is directly hurtful to the Scourges building options.
    The differentiation between the out of combat/ in combat aegis seems fitting thanks to the models design intentions, it is rather dull when it comes to its defensive skill and is therefor quite easy to hit for most elite units just aswell as it doesnt inspire the model to be viewed as an elite model (it has the same defensive skill as a core elf aswell as being outskilled by a EoS Captain) I have seen it being said a couple of times but the base line attack amount seems to be too low compared to its point cost and rage is a rule most often present at way cheaper multi wound units. Doing a quick comparison between all 16 armies.

    There are (excluding the Scourge) 8 models in the game with the rule rage (including the upgrade rule "Big Brother") The prices range between 260-320 points, all of these models have a base line of 5 attacks aswell as an avarage HP of 7,375.
    Its not that the Scourge is more expensive for the protection it has aswell as the more quality attacks, its ability to gain attacks from rage is lesse than the giants because of its smaller HP pool aswell as the Scourge having that unsightly Agi 0.
    Tbh rage seems like a bad rule for a model which is so expensive aswell as a possible general. Units which has rage wants to get hurt, to be able to unleash the most amount of damage at the right moment and the Scourge sadly doesnt fit this description thanks to its inherent position as a super elite model aswell as a general.
    The most expensive of Giants has a point cost of 40 points/ HP when the Scourge has literally 3 times that if it is naked, 120 points/ HP. It cannot be designed around losing HP to create its most optimal output, its just not right aswell as its not rewarding for the player using the Scourge to hoping to lose exactly 4 HP so it wont give up any points and at the meantime making most of its rage rule.

    And Since no one brought it to the ETC then we dont know what the optimal build according to some of the better players out there would look like.
    Atm Scourge is a dead pick.
    Think of it like if zero Grail knights were picked, or not a single Dwarven king etc etc.


    Display Spoiler

    Imps: 1
    Avarage Size: 10
    Mark of the Eternal Champion: 1
    Fire Starter: 1
    Standard:1
    Musician: 1
    Champion: 1

    One unit brought to the ETC, dont remember if we had some words from the person who brought it in here? However it was brought at min size and with full command together with both of the magical options. Why I believe that Imps wont cut it for peoples lists is manyfold. They are costly for their HP (its not a question about needing to increase their durability as what they need to bring to be able to be a competative choice is meaningful shooting for their point cost)
    With the build above they cost 340 points, thats 34 points per the 2 Res HP. The fact that they cannot keep up with the rest of the fast elements present in the DL list makes then either stay back or try to keep up but then getting in range. The shots at this point cost are negligible for even if shooting at something pricy and naked in the open and without modifiers they still need so many turns to get their points back, which they never will with rules such as Energy Bolts with range 24 with reload.
    This unit doesnt need a tweak, it needs a total redesign to better fit the DL list and how it is played, it should be rewarding. Either make them mobile shooting that can keep up and move about, or make them long range shooting similar to crossbows. Because currently, they are not cutting it.



    Display Spoiler

    Eidolons: 1
    Avarage Size: 8
    Champion: 1
    Incendiary Ichor: 1
    Scout: 1

    Another shooting option with a 4,7% pick rate at the ETC. the list which brought it was Croatia, the list seem to use the Eidolons to further increase the ranged capacity to support the Myrmidons, Hounds and Brazen who are the hammers of the list.
    About the unit of Eidolons the come in at 444 points.
    To me Eidolons are a bit weirdly designed, They dont have a lot of range nor movability, aswell as that they dont have rules that mitigate moving around. So they are ment to most often be within the opponents threat range but not be moving around. The ability of Dark Fire is kinda like a trap imo, units failing AS of 1-3 independent of their AS is at a power level of somewhere between AP 1-2 as it has the same effect as ap 2 against 2+ AS units and only better against 1+. Knights arent that prevalent in the game currently with a lot of people claiming that AS is made of paper, So I honestly think that they would be slightly worse with AP 1 but better with AP 2 by a long shot.
    So together with a high point cost per wound, being absolutely no threat as a flank charger these guys are a bit sub optimal with rules that do not go well with its intended playstyle.
    And it isnt a matter of points, independent of how much they cost they will still have rules that do not go well together and should therefor be looked at before it is too late.



    Display Spoiler

    Threshing Engine: 5
    Horde Thresher: 3
    Legion Thresher: 1
    Fly and Light Troops: 1
    Divining Snout: 1
    Roaming Hands: 1

    19% of the lists brought atleast one threshing engine with the Horde thresher seemingly being the more popular pick. 50% of list who brought a threshing engine went for Horde thresher compared to 25% for the other two options each. Not much can be said about its options, 3 of them were picked and only 1 time each, so its pretty much hard to tell the difference between them and the ones not being picked imo.
    But the Threshing engine isnt in a great spot internally and doesnt really make itself known as much as some other armies chariots.
    I honestly dont know what to do with these, however they do not seem like either a cheap glass cannon that you can throw away in exchange for a large chunk of the opponents block, not do they look solid enough to do any solo hunting. They kinda seem to need a different design which will put all eggs into one basket (durable grinder) or glass cannon annihilator, atm its stuck in meh land.



    Display Spoiler

    Titanslayer Chariot: 2

    The Titanslayer Chariot, our answer to monsters and the once powerful blood chariot has oh so fallen from grace. It has plummeted in eliteness and even at the low price of 205Pts its an uncompetative pick. only 9% of Lists brought a single Titanslayer chariot and without bringing a single manifestation, it honestly seems as if it were brought thanks to its low price tag rather than its usability.
    This unit just like the imps and the previous Myrmidons are a unit whose design doesnt work within lists. The target it tries to hand, well it cannot reasonably catch it since it is a chariot with a march of 7.
    Just compare it to the doomwheel in terms of usability if we arent supposed to compare to the old blood chariot.
    This is another unit that points cannot make feel correct as in if you point it at 60 points it will be broken since it wont effect the lists performance with its presence since it would take up so little point. But at 205 it wont do its intended job in most cases.
    Its another one of the units that needs an entire design change as it doesnt work, nor feel either fun nor rewarding (try charging a steamtank, one of its "intended" targets and see what happends)



    Display Spoiler

    Hoarders : 0

    Another unit being brought 0 times, this one is most likely due to points and a lack of fitting manifestations as we have seen it work in the past prior to heavy nerfs.
    Dextrous Tentacles doesnt play to the units strenghts and lifting agi from 2 to 3 is negliable at best.
    Grasping Proboscis is a manifestation that were so unused that it got a possibility to increase the amount of veil tokens generated by 300% at best. However its still not wanted, as DL doesnt have a problem generating veil tokens due to how each of our characters are wizards, together with the highest amount of aviable conclaves in the game aswell as immortal denizens. without Grasping Proboscis and all other veil token generating manifestations we are still having an abundance of veil tokens at our disposal.
    Kaleidoscopic Flesh is a wierd manifestation, No one is going to shoot at this unit with any light shooting and the cannons etc etc will target the single models, its not a manifestation that will increase their ability to tank and grind and as thus it is not needed.
    Divining Snout on Hoarders creates a similar thought as the Miser build, However Hoarders are not sturdy enought to take on large units of infantry which are the units that they are going to try and catch with this manifestation. And as such its just a waste which increases the cost.
    Unnatural Roots similarly to lemures is okay, but its to costly as at even a min sized unit it will be more expensive than a standard option.
    Smothering Coils only option in the entire list that actually helps the Hoarder to do their job, but together with the base cost of models they wont be attractive with or without this.



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    Sirens: 5
    Avarage Size: 5
    Spread between: 5-5
    Hammer Hand: 1

    19% of the lists brought atleast one unit of Sirens and always at min sized. Only 20% of the units have any manifestations on them which makes me believe that this unit is entirely viewed as being a chaff piece which isnt as competative as furies.
    The project needs to descide what they think is acceptable to the Sirens as in the prior book there were a spot for a niche list which used a larger number or Sirens as a character delivery system however that option is currently dead with this book.
    It needs a check up on what the project wants this unit to be.
    Currently its less competative than Hell Hounds and Furies and has no place in larger units.




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    Blazing Glory: 1
    Fly: 1
    Cloven Hooves: 1

    I think we had some words of encouragement from the person playing this unit, he didnt seem to fond of it tho. 4,7% pickrate isnt good and once again I will pick at the rule Falling Star and pointing out that its not rewarding for the actuall player using this model. Its a type of clench your buttocks and pray that the opponent rolls badly so that you get to use the model at its peak, which is never good.
    I honestly think that the blazing glory could be our Giant, a model which is reasonably cheap and with a rule that is designed as a throw away unit which rewards agressive play.
    Rules such as rage or gambling rules (VS flavour) might be in place with this one as it wont become the DP of old, make it fun to use, and it will be used. It has the same kind of negative effect that the old steam chart had with the EoS player where most people hated that damn steam chart which made the model less and less useful once its damaged, now that type of rules has been implemented in our book and I honestly dont know why.



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    Bloat Flies: 1
    Avarage Size: 3
    Spread between: 3-3

    I dont even know what to say, its up and down with this baby. 4,7% of lists brought it and it doesnt have a lot of coherence between rules and playstyle. It was initially designed as a suicide bomber but it currently has other stats catering towards it being a grinder against high AS targets. I dont like this model since its Acid Blood isnt really that rewarding, you first take the damage, then you get to throw back 1/3 of the wounds that you take and then you have to wound with S3. They should be a high damage dealer and currently they have a low return of Acid Blood attacks aswell as avarage strenght, low offensive skill, avarage agi and an okay AP.
    This unit doesnt excite me in the least and if it will take a flank charge it will bleed a lot of CR thanks to instability check not triggering Acid Blood. Overall the unit is too expensive and this is the problem, its already cheap by the standards of DL and where it should be on the elite scale. The book is quickly becoming less and less elite and it feels just like everything is happening again that went down prior to 1.0 where units were nerfed by reducing their stats and abilities but buffed by point reductions...



    All in all the list of underused/ unused models is just as long as the list of over used and okay used combined, 13 against 13.
    The book is in a really bad spot internally and I am curious with what I will find once analysing the manifestations brought by characters.
    What do you guys think needs to be done, because internally we are worse than we have been prior year (except during 2017) When it comes to ETC picks. The army is getting a lower and lower point cost per wound aswell as a lower avarage on stats compared to before.
    We are becoming less and less elite and atleast for me it feels like daemons are losing their identity, not the identity that were built during the WH days only. But as daemons being one of the most powerful creatures in myth and fantasy and becoming fairly avarage and bellow many mortal races.

    Will do manifestations later on.
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    Lots of good points in your post.
    One does have to remember that in a Team Tourny it's all skewed. The fact that there were more than 1 type of list is good(just look at KoE).
    And when it comes to team tournies it's all about the role, you simply can't make every unit in a book be viable at ETC.


    Kapten Kluns wrote:

    The army is getting a lower and lower point cost per wound aswell as a lower avarage on stats compared to before.
    We are becoming less and less elite and atleast for me it feels like daemons are losing their identity, not the identity that were built during the WH days only. But as daemons being one of the most powerful creatures in myth and fantasy and becoming fairly avarage and bellow many mortal races.
    I think its fine to have some units being more the non-elite horde of ravenous daemons. Usually the weaker stuff like Imps, Gremlins fit this role.
    I think when they fix the Gigantic Daemons and the Blazing Glories, then the book will have more of that Identity. Currently the identity is all over the place.
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    Peacemaker wrote:

    Lots of good points in your post.
    One does have to remember that in a Team Tourny it's all skewed. The fact that there were more than 1 type of list is good(just look at KoE).
    And when it comes to team tournies it's all about the role, you simply can't make every unit in a book be viable at ETC.


    Kapten Kluns wrote:

    The army is getting a lower and lower point cost per wound aswell as a lower avarage on stats compared to before.
    We are becoming less and less elite and atleast for me it feels like daemons are losing their identity, not the identity that were built during the WH days only. But as daemons being one of the most powerful creatures in myth and fantasy and becoming fairly avarage and bellow many mortal races.
    I think its fine to have some units being more the non-elite horde of ravenous daemons. Usually the weaker stuff like Imps, Gremlins fit this role. I think when they fix the Gigantic Daemons and the Blazing Glories, then the book will have more of that Identity. Currently the identity is all over the place.
    Fair enough and there might be some merit to the team tournament argument. However the lists are pretty similar.
    You go for some combination of the 3 standard sized characters. Pick one of the fighty core and match it with either lemures or a second fighty core.
    Then you bring some type of combination of fiends, hell Hounds or gremlings and support it with furies. Thats a big majority of the lists and they all play fairly similar.
    The book is pretty void of competative playstyles with a lot of current dead weight in the manifestation, character and unit sections.