DL 2.3 Update Suggestions Thread

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  • I’d have to ask the opposite and ask Why not? I’d rather put Coils on my harbinger for 50 points than on a unit of Succubi for 125. Then I can make a better combo with the guiding and the unit’s other options.
    B. "Skunk Butt" Jones - Member of the CGL :oldmen:
    • YES! My conquest is complete! I now have every Army and my bias will be for Every L.A.B. to be great!. :thumbsup:

    DL/ADT - TT

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  • because you also pay for the harbinger. And then i pay 210 points. 260 if i want him to be bsb, even more for being a wizard.
    I'd also have to take the Miser as general.

    And if i do all that, my opponent can negate all that investment by trying to pair non scoring units in the succubi (squigs anyone?)
    Comparing that to the broad applications of Deceiver as general and its guiding manifestations, it doesnt seem worth it.

    Long story short: point cost and opportunity cost

    Another thought: i would use coils on harbinger, if it was accidental synergy (--> if all the pieces are already there. i already want the harbinger, already play the miser. then it wouldnt hurt to pick the synergy. but thats 3/4 of my character budget before i even think about the coils)

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Theokrit ().

  • skipschnit wrote:

    I’d have to ask the opposite and ask Why not? I’d rather put Coils on my harbinger for 50 points than on a unit of Succubi for 125. Then I can make a better combo with the guiding and the unit’s other options.
    I wasnt talking about Guiding version. Guiding version benefits from the proposed change only if Harbinger/GD in a unit is on mount with Stomp or uses Breath attack/Impact hits, any of these cases is negligible.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by AlexCat ().

  • Okay here goes, I have been looking at the picking rates, usage of manifestation allowance, guiding percentages and what manifestations are picked for characters. This is once again a piece of analysis of the ETC lists. 21 Lists and the characters and tier picksrates.

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    Harbringer of father Chaos makes an appearance 14 times and is picked in 57% of lists.
    The lists of its manifestations picked are as following.
    Hammer Hand: 1
    Unnatural Roots: 1
    Dextrous Tentacles: 1
    Mark of Eternal Champion: 4
    Chilling Yawn: 1
    Living Shield: 1
    Sorcerous Antennae: 1
    Guiding Bronze Backbone: 1
    Guiding Digestive Vomit: 1
    Guiding Unhinging Jaw: 1
    Guiding Venom Sacs: 4
    Guiding Piercing Spike: 2
    Guiding Kaleidoscopic Flesh: 1
    Guiding Dextrous Tentacles: 1

    11 instances of guiding manifestation which comes down to 78% of harbringers, as earlier stated 100% of the harbringers brought was used as adept wizards and these two seem to be the harbringers roles, guiding manifestation deliverer and magical support for a main wizard.
    Looking at the other manifestations we can see that MOTEC is somewhat picked other than that its kinda slim.
    The avarage Harbringer uses 75 points for its build which is 50% of its allowance and the number of manifestations on avarage is 1,4 manifestations.
    So outside of guiding manifestation we see a total of 3 Harbringers doing more with their build and one using it as a pure wizard adept.
    Overall the Harbringer seem to have 2 niches and without much incitament to actually use its magical allowance.

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    Kuulima's Deceiver makes an appearance 11 times and in 52% of the lists. it uses the following manifestations.
    Greenfire Eyes: 2
    Venom Sacs: 1
    Piercing Spike: 2
    Unnatural Roots: 1
    Sorcerous Antenna: 1
    Dexterous Tentacles: 1
    HammerHand: 1
    Mark of the Eternal Champion: 2
    Guiding Brimstone Secretions: 1
    Guiding Piercing Spike: 5
    Guiding Venom Sacs: 4
    Guiding Kaleidoscopic Flesh: 1

    11 instances of guiding manifestation and thats a total of 100%, the other "non guiding manifestations" seem to come from mostly Manifestations of Envy, overall Manifestations of Envy seem to be in a great spot internally as 6 out of 11 Decievers were mixed with Harbringers in lists and the Harbringers brought Guiding Manifestations of Envy in 6 out of 7 cases.
    For the amount of points used for Kuulimas Deciever in its build the avarage is 95 points which amount up to 63% of allowance used on avarage, its better than the Harbringer but nowhere near good that an avarage build uses just a bit lower than 2/3rds of its allowance knowing that DL has the lowest allowance in the game. 2 of the lists tried to use the Deciever for a bit more offensive output but other than that the roles of the Deceiver is the same as the Harbringer, granting guiding manifestations and casting spells. Overall low amount of "builds" as a single guiding manifestation cannot be said to make up an item build. The avarage amount of manifestations picked for a Deceiver is 2,3 which is still really low imo

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    Omen of Savar makes an appearance 7 times and are picked in 28% of the lists. It uses the following manifestations
    Brimstone Secretions: 1
    Living Shield: 2
    Dextrous Tentacles: 4
    Hammer Hand: 3
    Bronze Backbone: 3
    Sorcerous Antennae: 2
    Iron Husk: 2
    Centipede Legs: 1
    Guiding Bronze Backbone: 2
    Guiding Brimstone Secretions: 1

    Only 3 Omens used guiding manifestations which is 42% of the cases, this seem much more healthy than both the Deceiver and the Harbringer. There is a mix between Guiding manifestations, defensive options, veil token storage and offensive manifestations. Only a single Pride manifestation were picked in eiter guiding or normal form. Aswell as the avarage points used for the Omen being used is 120 points which is 80%. This is quite nice actually however the avarage amount of manifestations are 2,8 so there is some inflation in points thanks to the incorporation of Iron Husk in two cases. The Omens builds seem to be built around either buffing, survivability and veil token storage, or damage dealing.
    Imho the Omen is the most healthy looking character we have atm both from pick rates, amount of manifestations used aswell as point allowance usage.

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    Sentinel of Nukuja makes an appearance 4 times and is picked in 19% of the lists. it uses the following manifestations.
    Mark of Eternal Champion: 3
    Aura of Despair: 1

    Overall the Sentinel of Nukuja has a somewhat low appearance in ETC lists even if it isnt horrible? It could have been higher, the manifestations tho are in a horrible state for this "peak of wizardry" aviable to DL. The avarage points used from its allowance is 46 points which makes up a total of 30% of its manifestation allowance. There are no Builds as only MOTEC is used in more than one case and the Manifestations of Sloth arent used by its prime candidate. This model needs help on a design level because currently its a low picked character with a 100% pickrate on Throne of Oracle aswell as almost no manifestations being purchased for it.

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    Courtesan of Cibaresh pops up in two lists total which is about 9% of the lists and the manifestaions that it uses are
    Brimstone Secretions: 1
    Kaleidoscopic Flesh: 1
    Chitinous scales: 1
    Mesmerising Plummage: 2
    Iron Husk: 1

    The two builds that were present were Brimstone Secretions, Kaleidoscopic Flesh, Chitinous scales, Mesmerising Plummage 135 points
    And Iron Husk, Mesmerizing Plumage. 150 points. Which land the avarage points used from its allowance to 142 points and 95% of its allowance used. This is what atleast I want to see, a model which is most worth when being kitted out and that the allowance cap is there to keep the models power level in check.
    However when looking deeper into the models builds it seem to only use its allowance on defensive manifestations. There seems to be no real direction with these builds to create something, just filling a hole in its durability
    It seems as the Courtesan is the only GD that put its entire point allowance into defensive abilities which is interesting in itself, however only Iron Husk and Chitinous scales are manifestations that works as a type of hard defense for the model. The avarage amount of manifestations brought is 3, its the highest amount of manifestaions on an avarage build, however they are really onesided.

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    Maw of Akaan rolls in at 3 picks within the 21 lists which amount up to a total of 14% pickrate. It uses the following manifestations
    Iron Husk: 2
    Unhinging Jaw: 1
    Mirrored Scales: 1
    Centipede Legs: 1
    Digestive Vomit: 1

    The builds that are present are.
    Iron Husk, Unhinging Jaw
    Mirrored Scales, Centipede Legs, Digestive Vomit
    Iron Husk
    This amount up to an avarage point usage of 125 points and an avarage amount of manifestations present in a build is 2. Once again a low number but a high amount of points being used relative to the allowance. The Maw uses 2/3 of the Manifestations of Gluttony and one build tries to make use of the immense base.
    What is worth mentioning is that Iron Husk eats up 73% of the models allowance is scary and kinda Counteractive if what we are after is different builds.

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    Miser of Sugulag makes a single appearance and uses
    Mirrored Scales: 1
    Centipede Legs: 1
    Divining Snout: 1

    This makes the Miser picked in 4,7% of the lists and using a total of 85 points for its build which is 56% aswell as 3 manifestations for the build. No much can be said about this pick that I didnt mention the time before except that it doesnt seem to be using its other manifestations of greed Grasping Proboscis or Smothering Coils.

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    Vanadra’s Scourge didnt get the memo that ETC was underway so neither it nor any of its manifestations are present in the lists.

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    The situation for DLs character selection aswell as the possible manifestation allowance and build seem to have a clear direction. I will be kicking in a lot of open doors here but here goes. You go with several instances of units being able to cast spells (10 lists brought 3 spell casters, 10 lists brought 2 spell casters and 1 list brought 4 spell casters making the avarage amount of casters in a list 2,4)
    and you go with Guiding manifestations (25 of 41 characters brought Guiding Manifestations which is 60%)
    As a DL general you go with these two designs in your lists currently and only 6 lists stepped away from this by not bringing any guiding Manifestations.
    There is imo a too high dependance on Guiding manifestations which skews the Manifestation selection for characters and both lessens the ability for useful character manifestations aswell as shoehorns us into the standard sized GDs. We need to be able to create powerful BUILDS for our GDs to be able to see them brought without the Guiding manifestation bandaid.

    Currently the avarage amount of Manifestations brought on any given character is 1,98. Two manifestation per character, thats not good at all, its a single layer of complexity and the avarage amount brought is 2 Items on our Lord level characters.
    The avarage amount of points used on a character is 91 Points per avarage thats 61% Allowance usage on avarage within the army with the lowest amount of adable layers and the lowest allowance in THE game.
    This is a serious problem people, DL has no meaningful Character builds outside of bringing the Guiding manifestation and more often than not calling it a day there.
    Please look into lifting this unfun restriction that DLs characters are only allowed 150 points for the allowance, we already have only a single layer of complexity to add any way.
    please look into Character Only manifestations as these are one of, if not THE problem of this entire AB. There is nothing meaningful to pick among the manifestations to affect the characters output on an individual level and just to try and make a point out of this try and create a Character only build from the Manifestations, without any guiding manifestations as a bandaid with another factions characters.
    Do a Dwarven king with manifestations (not guiding) do an HbE elf Lord with manifestations (without guiding) etc etc and do not pick any mundane equipment. See where that character lands on the powerscale.

    All in all, please look into bringing back some individual quality to our characters, help the players create meaningful builds that affects the power level of the character when kitted out.
    Atm the Character selection feels weak and with all its eggs in the basket of Character to unit synergy and the individual might of a GD has been forgotten.
  • Manifestation picks overall. What manifestations are present on characters in guiding or normal version and what manifestations arent picked at all

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    What manifestations are being brought for Character builds and in what percentages? I will look into Manifestations of Father aswell aswell as sin specific manifestations. There will be a difference made between Guiding and normal manifestations

    Mark of Eternal Champion: 9 Picks present with Sentinel, Harbringer and Deceiver being the users and a pick rate of 21,4%
    Dextrous Tentacles: 6 picks present, Omen of Savar being the main user 14% pickrate
    Hammer Hand: 5 picks present, Omen of Savar being the main user. 11% pick rate
    Iron Husk: 5 picks present, Omen and Maw being the main users. 11% pickrate
    Sorcerous Antennae: 4 picks present, Omen of Savar being the main user. 9,5% pickrate
    Living Shield: 3 picks present, Omen of Savar being the main user. 7% pickrate
    Centipede Legs: 3 picks present. 7% pickrate
    Brimstone Secretions: 2 picks present. 4,7% pickrate
    Mirrored Scales:2 picks present. 4,7% pickrate
    Unnatural Roots: 2 picks present, Deceiver and Harbringer. 4,7% pickrate
    Kaleidoscopic Flesh: 1 pick present. 2,3% pickrate
    Chitinous scales: 1 pick present. 2,3% pickrate

    Overall the highest picked non Guiding manifestation is picked 14% of the times, compare this to some of the most popular items in other books and see for yourself where you think an acceptable pickrate would be.

    And Manifestations never picked were.
    Withering Vapour: 0 picks
    Cloven Hooves: 0 picks
    Charged Tendrils: 0 picks
    Dark Hide: 0 picks
    Third Eye: 0 picks

    Sin specific manifestations, What pick were brought by that sins GD and respectively chars with access to it
    Aura of Despair: 1 taken. 25% pickrate taking into account the amount of Sentinels brought and 5,5% pickrate amongst all chars
    Chilling Yawn: 1 taken. 0% pickrate taking into account the amount of Sentinels brought and 5,5% pickrate amongst all chars
    Greenfire Eyes: 2 taken. 18% pickrate taking into account the amount of Deceivers brought and 8% pickrate amongst all chars
    Venom Sacs: 1 taken. 9% pickrate taking into account the amount of Deceivers brought and 4% pickrate amongst all chars
    Piercing Spike: 2 taken. 18% pickrate taking into account the amount of Deceivers brought and 8% pickrate amongst all chars
    Bronze Backbone: 3 taken. 42,8% pickrate taking into account the amount of Omens brought and 14,2% pickrate amongst all chars
    Mesmerising Plummage: 2 taken 100% pickrate taking into account the amount of Courtesans brought and 12,5% pickrate amongst all chars
    Unhinging Jaw: 1 taken. 33% pickrate taking into account the amount of Maws brought and 5,8% pickrate amongst all chars
    Digestive Vomit: 1 taken. 33% pickrate taking into account the amount of Maws brought and 5,8% pickrate amongst all chars
    Divining Snout: 1 taken. 100% pickrate taking into account the amount of Misers brought and 6,6% pickrate amongst all chars

    And Manifestations never picked were.
    Manifestations of Greed
    Grasping Proboscis: 0 picks
    Smothering Coils: 0 picks

    Manifestations of Lust
    Roaming Hands: 0 picks
    Hot Blood: 0 picks

    Manifestations of Gluttony
    Broodmother: 0 picks

    Manifestations of Pride
    Stiff Upper Lip: 0 picks
    Horns of Hubris: 0 picks

    Manifestations of Sloth
    Segmented Shell : 0 picks

    Manifestations of Wrath
    Whipcrack Tail: 0 picks
    Red Haze: 0 picks
    Incendiary Ichor: 0 picks

    And Guiding Manifestations picked.
    Guiding Bronze Backbone: 3 taken. 14% pickrate together with the not guiding that makes it 6 taken and 28,5% presence of Bronze Backbone
    Guiding Digestive Vomit: 1 taken. 5,8% pickrate together with the not guiding that makes it 2 taken and 11,7% presence of Digestive Vomit
    Guiding Unhinging Jaw: 1 taken. 5,8% pickrate together with the not guiding that makes it 2 taken and 11,7% presence of Unhinging Jaw
    Guiding Venom Sacs: 8 taken. 32% pickrate together with the not guiding that makes it 9 taken and 36% presence of Venom Sacs
    Guiding Piercing Spike: 7 taken. 28% pickrate together with the not guiding that makes it 9 taken and 36% presence of Piercing Spike
    Guiding KaleidoscopicFlesh: 2 taken.6,3% pickrate together with the not guiding that makes it 3 taken and 7,1% overall pickrate
    Guiding DextrousTentacles: 1 taken. 3,1% pickrate together with the not guiding that makes it 7 taken and 16,6% overall pickrates
    Guiding Brimstone Secretions: 2 taken. 6,2% pickrate together with the not guiding that makes it 4 taken and 9,5% overall pickrate

    Manifestations not brought as Guiding manifestations
    Guiding Mirrored Scales. 0% Pickrate
    Guiding Centipede Legs. 0% pickrate
    Guiding Living Shield. 0% pickrate
    Guiding Grasping Proboscis. 0% pickrate
    Guiding Smothering Coils. 0% pickrate
    Guiding Divining Snout. 0% pickrate
    Guiding Broodmother. 0% pickrate
    Guiding Roaming Hands. 0% pickrate
    Guiding Hot Blood. 0% pickrate
    Guiding Horns of Hubris. 0% pickrate
    Guiding Segmented Shell. 0% pickrate
    Guiding Whipcrack Tail. 0% pickrate
    Guiding Red Haze. 0% pickrate
    Guiding Incendiary Ichor. 0% pickrate

    Overall the manifestation section of the book is in great turmoil. Builds that focuses on individuality are almost nonexistent, almost no character in the book uses its entirety of its allowance and a large number of manifestations arent picked at all. There need to be a focus on how we can improve individual builds because currently we do feel like an anthill with everything going towards buffing units and no individual prowess being found in lists. Thats not why I picked DL as my army to begin with and that is not why I kept playing DL. The identity of great lords of chaos reaping destruction on the battlefield isnt present in the current book and atm this kinda sums up why I believe the DL Character section is so dull.
    The word of flavour when it comes to DL is vanilla and there seems to be a somewhat clear trend going on. And its not a great trend at that.

    Take what you want from the above analysis, it might say a lot, it might say a little. But it is disheartening to me atleast.

  • Okay what picks are being used for units you might wonder. Aswell as how many units has access to specific manifestations?
    Here I will ignore character only manifestations aswell as not doing a cross examining between % of manifestations used when being aviable to several units.

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    Imps, we all love to hate their current iteration. 1 picked and options brought were
    Mark of the Eternal Champion: 1. 100% picked
    Fire Starter: 1. 100% picked
    Incendiary Ichor. 0. 0% picked
    Dark Hide. 0. 0% picked
    Charged Tendrils. 0. 0% picked
    Sorcerous Antennae. 0. 0% picked

    Lemures, the unit you either spam in MSU or not at all. 20 picks total and present in 47% of lists
    unnatural roots: 10. 50% picked
    Chilling Yawn: 1. 5% picked
    Brimstone Secretions: 1. 5% picked
    Stiff Upper Lip . 0. 0% picked
    Venom Sacs. 0. 0% picked

    Myrmidons, a unit looking good in several different configurations. 15 picks total and in 47% of lists
    I want to remind people that Bronze backbone and Piercing spike were brought several times through Guiding manifestations
    Whipcrack Tail: 9. 60% picked
    Bronze Backbone: 5. 33% picked
    Piercing Spike: 1. 6,6% picked
    Hot Blood . 0. 0% picked
    Unhinging Jaw. 0. 0% picked.

    Succubi, similar to Myrmidons a unit in great health. 19 picks total and in 71% of lists
    Bronze Backbone: 6. 31,5% picked
    Smothering Coils: 5. 26,3% picked
    Mesmerising Plumage: 5. 26,3% picked
    Chilling Yawn: 3. 15,7% picked
    Dark Hide . 0. 0% picked

    Eidolons, similar to Imps when it comes to units being used, they simply arent attractive. 1 picked an 4,7% present in lists
    Incendiary Ichor: 1. 100% picked
    Aura of Despair. 0. 0% picked
    Kaleidoscopic Flesh. 0. 0% picked
    Sorcerous Antennae. 0. 0% picked

    HellHounds, another popular pick for ETC. 22 units being brought and being represented in 66% of lists
    Digestive Vomit: 4. 18% picked
    Horns of Hubris: 3. 13,6% picked
    Hot Blood: 10. 45% picked
    Grasping Proboscis: 5. 22,5% picked
    Incendiary Ichor . 0. 0% picked
    Centipede Legs . 0. 0% picked

    Threshing Engine, a pick somewhat present, 5 present and in 19% of lists. Manifestations doesnt seem to be a good choice for the Threshing engine as only 40% of them bought a manifestation.
    Divining Snout: 1. 20% picked
    Roaming Hands: 1. 20% picked
    Mark of the Eternal Champion . 0. 0% picked
    Whipcrack Tail . 0. 0% picked
    Horns of Hubris. 0. 0% picked.

    Titanslayer Chariot, a pick which wasnt popular. 2 were brought 9% of lists brought one and not a single manifestation on it, this unit is in a bad spot internally and externally.
    Stiff Upper Lip
    Divining Snout
    Digestive Vomit
    Segmented Shell
    Centipede Legs
    All 0% pickrates

    Mageblight Gremlins, one of the most popular picks amongst DL generals, 23 units present and in 76% of lists.
    However there is one auto include manifestation one of the few auto includes amongst any DL unit.
    Venom Sacs: 17. 74% pickrate
    Greenfire Eyes: 2. 8,7% pickrate
    Living Shield: 1. 4,3% pickrate
    Unnatural Roots. 0. 0% picked
    Piercing Spike. 0. 0% picked

    Clawed Fiends, another one of our hot stuff that helps us compete. 22 units present. 52% of lists
    Mesmerising Plumage: 3. 13.6% picked
    Broodmother: 5. 22,7% picked
    Unhinging Jaw: 6. 27,2% picked
    Piercing Spike: 3. 13,6% picked
    Dark Hide. 0. 0% picked

    Hoarders not present, they were all present at a hoarders anonymous meeting.

    Sirens, one of our inbetween units, not a great chaff internally´and without much more uses. 5 picks present in 19% of lists
    Hammerhand: 1. 20% pickrate
    Centipede Legs. 0. 0% pickrate
    Hot Blood. 0. 0% picked
    Mesmerising Plumage. 0. 0% picked
    Roaming Hands. 0. 0% picked

    Blazing Glory, another of the units who currently didnt show up to work. 1 unit present 4,7% of lists brought one
    Cloven Hooves: 1. 100% pickrate
    Brimstone Secretions. 0. 0% pickrate
    Horns of Hubris. 0. 0% pickrate.
    Stiff Upper Lip. 0. 0% picked
    Bronze Backbone. 0. 0% picked

    Hope Harvester, another healthy pick which showed up 8 times and in 28% of lists
    Overall a ok spread in manifestations used
    Mark of Eternal Champion: 2. 25% picked
    Aura of Despair: 3. 37,5 picked
    Chilling Yawn: 2. 25% picked
    Segmented Shell. 0. 0% picked
    Sorcerous Antennae. 0. 0% picked

    Brazen Beasts, had an okay showing, not great but okay. 6 units in 23% of lists
    Red Haze: 2. 33% picked
    Whipcrack Tail: 2. 33% picked
    Incendiary Ichor. 0. 0% picked
    Centipede Legs. 0. 0% picked
    Chitinous Scales . 0. 0% picked

    Furies, our classic to go to chaff piece. 21 units present in 80% of lists
    Red Haze: 1. 4,7% picked
    Kaleidoscopic flesh: 3. 14,2% picked
    Venom Sacs. 0. 0% picked
    Dark Hide. 0. 0% picked
    Mesmerising Plumage. 0. 0% picked

    Veil Serpents, a special unit as it doesnt buy its manifestations. However Mirror scales seems wierd on them to me. 13 units were brought in, 42% of lists, thats healthy.

    Bloat Flies, the bullied child of DL, 1 unit present in 4,7% of lists in min sized without a single manifestation being brought
    -Dextrous Tentacles. 0. 0% picked
    Unhinging Jaw. 0. 0% picked
    -Digestive Vomit. 0. 0% picked
    -Kaleidoscopic Flesh. 0. 0% picked
    Broodmother. 0. 0% picked

  • So what Manifestations see extremly little use at the ETC and should tbh be looked upon for total redesign?

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    Iron Husk, this manifestation is only aviable to characters which imo is a good thing, we need more of those to solve the problem with character builds. However it is only brought 5 times by the characters its aviable to and 12% of the characters that could pick it and have use for it brought it. This manifestation is either too expensive for what it brings or has a weird design where its balanced for a single GD where it might achieve maximum effect. Take a look at it please

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    Kaleidoscopic Flesh, only 1 pick present. 2,3% pickrate on characters, it has some additional use as guiding manifestation it seems with 2 taken.6,3% pickrate together with the not guiding that makes it 3 taken and 7,1% overall pickrate. On units it purchasable on 4 units but out of those 4 units only furies bought Kaleidoscopic Flesh. In other words the avarage times this manifestation is being used is 6 picks throught out 21 lists, thats not good and furies have a 14,2% pick rate on Kaleidoscopic Flesh. The manifestation is rather straight forward so perhaps its too expensive to be viewed as competative or attractive?

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    Mark of the Eternal Champion, one of the few attractive choices aviable that are useful in the magic phase. 9 Picks present with Sentinel, Harbringer and Deceiver being the users and a pick rate of 21,4% amongst characters and 3 picks being present in the form of Hope Harvesters and imps. This manifestation seems to be in a good healthy place.

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    Mirrored Scales, funny enough this manifestation is rather new and isnt a choice on many units. Its aviable to 1 unit and we cannot mearsure how often its being used there. On characters however it is seen as a not competative choice with 2 picks present. 4,7% pickrate and 0 Guiding versions. There has been some discussion about how this manifestation is interpreted so that should be sorted out. Aswell as taking a long good thinker about if it needs a change and tbh it needs a point drop to be useful to characters.

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    Withering Vapour, it has a total of 0 appearances, it needs to be either changed or dropped in points to be useful. Currently its safe to say that it is dead weight in the manifestation section. Perhaps it could be put as a option on some units instead? like Veil serpents or eidolons to help with their useability

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    Hammer Hand, a manifestation mostly aviable to characters, 5 picks present, Omen of Savar being the main user. 11% pick rate, its not very popular and something should be done to make it more viable within builds, creating combinations where extra attacks matter more. Its only aviable to a single unit where it is only brought a single time. This manifestation isnt used to its full potential as it is only present on one of our chaff units.
    Id say overlook if there is any other unit where the inclusion of hammerhand might increase its attractiveness.

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    Sorcerous Antennae, a classic boost to our veil token generation, it has been said several times that DL has no problem with generating veil tokens and that such manifestations are a waste of space and could be replaced for something useful. This is shown in the pickrates through out character selection aswell as units 4 picks present, Omen of Savar being the main user. 9,5% pickrate amongst characters. In units 0% pick rate amongst the three units where it is aviable (imps, eidolons and Hope Harvester) This isnt a very useful manifestation for DL as with both our racial and forced upon wizard spam aswell as one of our characters special ability manipulating veil token to dice exchange, we have enough resources. Even if it is straight forward and aviable to every faction otherwise. Imo Redesign this as its not attractive atm with how the Legion is designed.

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    Cloven Hooves, another dead pick. 0% usage amongst characters, only 1 pick present in the entirety of 21 ETC DL lists on the only Blazing glory showing up and only being aviable to that single unit outside of characters. This Manifestation is dead and not worth its salt. Redesign it imo as it cannot be made much cheaper and the only place where it would see any use at all is if you were able to bring it on units who isnt single model units.

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    Brimstone Secretions, another low percentage pick amongst characters, 2 guiding versions taken. 6,2% pickrate together with the not guiding that makes it 4 taken and 9,5% overall pickrate. Amongst units it is aviable to 2 units (blazing glories and Lemures) it is brought a single time on a single unit of Lemures so a 5% pickrate amongst them.
    This Manifestation is too niche and doesnt see use most of the time, it either needs to be so cheap that its almost free or an additional rule needs to be added to it. However something needs to be done about Brimstone Secretions.

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    Centipede Legs, a rather straight forward manifestation, it is a lesser version than the banner of speed in the RB and it takes up the manifestation slot for units which is supposed to replace our mundane weaponry. Overall it has a really low pickrate, 3 picks present. 7% on characters and not a single guiding manifestation. it is aviable to 4 units but it isnt brought a single time.
    There needs to be some thought put into wether Centipede Legs is such a good idea atm. Its overcosted for what it brings on characters in normal and guiding version aswell as on normal units it takes up the manifestation slot that is our replacement for mundane weaponry. Atm It has no use at the cost present on most units however. So either a price drop is needed or a total redesign as it is deadweight

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    Charged Tendrils, This is one of the most worthless manifestations in the entire section. It is picked 0% of the times on characters and 0% of the times on the units that it is aviable to. It is so horribly niche in its uses aswell as being really overcosted. And please, please, please, do not dropp its points. Redesign the damn thing as it isnt useful for DL in the slightest.

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    Chitinous Scales, the weakness of DL is armour however the inclusion of a low armour value manifestation is present. 1 pick present. 2,3% pickrate for characters aswell as being aviable to a single unit but having a 0% pickrate there. This manifestation has very little synergy with other elements in the army aswell as kinda standing alone on it granting 5+ AS but not being able to achieve any higher AS than that. It seems overcosted and tbh isnt there anything more useful that we can have than a 5+AS for 25 points? I mean a shield for a Dwarven king costs 10 points and granting +1 AS to an already 4+ AS save aswell as Shieldwall. Its an iffy comparison at best, but the fact is that Chitinous Scales doesnt work on its own and it has nothing to work with in the entire book.

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    Dark Hide needs a serious redesign, it is present in 0% of character picks and 0% of units where it is aviable. The fact is that it takes up the useful manifestation slot and if the enemy decides to dropp everything to grasp first turn all those points are wasted aswell as the unit having forteited its chance to bring a manifestation. If anything it should not be a manifestation but purchasable as a side upgrade for whatever units deemed fitting, that way it might be a waste of points but it doesnt weaken the unit atleast.

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    Living Shield, 3 picks present, Omen of Savar being the main user. 7% pickrate for characters it isnt used even once as guiding manifestation and to the units it is aviable to its only taken by the Gremlins once 1. 4,3% pickrate. This is a rather straight forward manifestation but it is horribly overcosted for what it brings. Once again compare to the inclusion of shields on other characters and the cost of a shield on them aswell as the shield granting a further +1 AS to an already good armour save.
    Price dropp is needed

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    Unnatural Roots, on characters its 2 picks present, Deceiver and Harbringer. 4,7% pickrate, and aviable to two units, gremlin,Hoarderss and Lemures. On Lemures its the to go to options thanks to the usage of spamming of 10 man strong units and on gremlins it is overshadowed by Venom Sacs. Overall its not a great manifestation on characters and the usage on units are explanable thanks to Lemures current usage, the internally weak Hoarders aswell as the auto include on gremlins

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    Third Eye, another useless magic phase related items, it has a total of 0 picks in ETC lists aswell as being not present in any units outside of characters. It doesnt bring any raw power only a slight ability for foresight and as it is much more productive to overpower the enemy than to know if you get 4 or 5 dice its not great. I would suggest a redesign to something useful.

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    Dextrous Tentacles, our cheapest manifestation and second most picked manifestation for individual characters with 6 picks present, Omen of Savar being the main user 14% pickrate. It has some use as a guiding manifestation 1 taken. 3,1% pickrate together with the not guiding that makes it 7 taken and 16,6% overall pickrate.
    On the only unit it is being aviable to its of no use, the Hoarders. It is a simple manifestation which can have some use, I would suggest a point dropp for guiding manifestations and overlook if any unit might have better use of it than hoarders.

    That was all Manifestations of Father chaos, it isnt looking that good in most cases and the pick rates are really really low with only two manifestations marking themselfs as universally useful. MOTEC and Dextrous Tentacles.
  • Theokrit wrote:

    how many of the hope harvesters were engine of damnation?

    Impressive work
    Cheers, well its a personal issue I have with the book so I have taken interest in trying to see how things actually are.
    Keep in mind that this is ónly data from the ETC but some of it mirrors what we have seen for some time now.

    Engine of damnation were brought 3 times total out of 8 and it seems to be mostly used to try and hide GDs
  • IoRi78 wrote:

    Good work @Kapten Kluns, have passed all to TT for analisys
    More is coming, im currently looking at the picking rates of sin specific manifestations aswell as ive taken a look once more at the lowering of stats from the slim book to the current book. The only thing im missing is the difference in point costs.
    This book isnt subjectively less elite than the book prior to this, it is objectively less elite and it isnt at all in a good internal state.
  • New book: Advance= 6,8. March=12,88. Dis=7,73. HP=3,62. Def=4,2 . Off=4,31. Res=4,33. Attack= 2,97. Str= 4,2. AP= 1,5. Agi= 3,28
    Old book: Advance= 7,13. March=14,26. Dis=7,3. HP= 3,37. Def= 4,83. Off= 4,74. Res=4,37. Attack= 4,3. Str= 4,21. Ap= 1,63. Agi= 4,36

    Color coded independent of how much it differs, however there has been quite a large plummet in stats in the DL book. This isnt a little together with the dropp in character allowance, aviable builds and avarage allowance usages. The dropp to a single layer of complexity (manifestation) has made us into a one trick pony. We have guiding manifestations, several wizards and a combination of the 2 offensive core units, furies, Hellhounds, Fiends and gremlins. There are some other units that see little additional play such as brazen beasts, veil serpents and Hope harvester.
    But the monstermash, shooting playstyles, flying circus, promises of infantry focused and options to play guidingless all lie dorment.
    Its not looking good atm for diversity.
  • Sin specific manifestations then, they are a bit more powerful it seems and in most cases are directly tied to the usefulness of their respective character.

    Manifestations of Greed
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    Grasping Proboscis, another one of those veil generating abilities that DL have too many of. It is never picked for a character Grasping Proboscis: 0 picks 0% usage. To the units its aviable to we can see it being aviable to two units, hoarders and hellhounds with the first not being picked at all and the later having picked it 5. 22,5% times. It is so ridiculously cheap and even then making it only to 22,5% of the picks. Imo this manifestation isnt needed as stated earlier the avarage DL list already generates almost 5 veil tokens at the start of each magicphase. Redesign it as it cannot be made any cheaper and currently it isnt useful. Creating all these veil token items might have seen as a good idea at first, but we have no use for them and we already have a magic phase where we most likely always have 3-4 more dice than our opponent and many times we need to throw away veil tokens that cannot be saved for later.

    Smothering Coils, were never picked by a character, not as normal nor guiding manifestation. It is aviable to 2 units outside of characters and one doesnt see any play as we know (hoarders) the other see a healthy use of Smothering Coils: 5. 26,3% picked. Perhaps look over point cost for characters aswell as looking over if it should be aviable to more units?

    Divining Snout, Being brought a single time by a character aswell as zero times in a guiding format. When looking at units we can see that it is aviable to 2 units. and being picked 1. 20% picked by Threshing engine and 0 times by titanslayer. Fair to say, 2 intances of a manifestation over 21 lists doesnt really tell the tale of the manifestation being popular. I think that it simply is too niche to be of much use. I would personally redesign this as making it cheaper than currently makes little sense.

    Overall the Manifestations of Greed are in a bad place with only Smothering Coils being a healthy option for Succubi. This should be looked over closely and perhaps opening up more useful manifestations will solve the problem with the Miser. Because right now, its not working.

    Manifestations of Lust
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    Mesmerising Plumage, a pick that is auto include it seems on the Courtesan (Mesmerising Plummage: 2 taken 100% pickrate taking into account the amount of Courtesans brought and 12,5% pickrate amongst all chars). On normal units it is actually one of the manifestations that are aviable to many units, 5 in total.
    It seem useful on Veil serpents but I have no idea about usage rate. Furies. 0. 0% picked, Sirens 0. 0% picked, Succubi 5. 26,3% picked and Fiends 3. 13.6% picked. The Manifestation sees use in other words, but on the two chaff units its understandable that it isnt that useful. You want a unit with Mesmerising Plumage to stick around and it is used on units that are fast. Overall id say that this is a rather healthy choice ^^

    Roaming Hands, it sees zero use 0% pickrate amongst characters. it is aviable to 2 units and only the Treshing enigine brought this manifestation a single time. Overall its not a great pick for whatever reason and it is internally not competative amongst the other choices.

    Hot Blood, has a 0% pickrate amongst characters and amongst the 3 units its aviable to it is by far the most wanted pick for hellhounds with a pickrate of 10. 45% picked. Neither Sirens nor Myrmidons picked it even once and this most likely have to do with the movementspeed of Myrmidons lowering the possibility of them getting the bonus and the Sirens being on chaff duty.
    Overall seems too expensive for characters and there might be need for an effort to look for more fitting units to stick it in than the current.

    Lust Manifestations seems to be in a better place then greed however thats mostly thanks to Mesmerising Plumage. Hot blood needs a very fast unit to be of use and only a single unit fills that role good enough to be worth it to bring. Roaming Hands is too situational and imo in a bad spot

    Manifestations of Envy
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    Here we go, the winner of the manifestation lottery of usefulness. Envy, the one who has it all.

    Greenfire Eyes, 2 taken. 18% pickrate taking into account the amount of Deceivers brought and 8% pickrate amongst all chars not that great but atleast present. Perhaps its price should be looked at since it is infact a useful ability. Or it could be redesigned to be more like KoE´s Virtue of Daring Charge Range rolls of the bearer’s unit and ChargeRange rolls against enemy units in base contact withthe bearer are subject to Maximised Roll. This is at 50 points and not from magical items allowance and works every turn. 40 points for a one use only taken from the magical allowance feels increadibly expensive in comparison.
    Among units only gremlins have access to it and they are only picked 2. 8,7% pickrate. Overall this unit sees some use, but its a very low pickrate. Either oversee its design or give it a point dropp imo.

    Piercing Spike, one of the most useful manifestations in the entire book, its is not niche nor does it have a specific trigger effect to be of use. Among characters Guiding Piercing Spike: 7 taken. 28% pickrate together with the not guiding that makes it 9 taken and 36% presence of Piercing Spike. This is one of the manifestations that actually see somewhat normal amounts of percentages in pickrates compared to other armies. And among the units that can take it, Clawed fiends 3. 13,6% picked, gremlins being overshined på venom sacs so 0. 0% picked and Myrmidons 1. 6,6% picked. It is in a healthy place where is is used often enough on characters aswell as some times on units.

    Venom Sacs, probably the winner of the entire manifestation section. This manifestation is popular on characters with Guiding Venom Sacs: 8 taken. 32% pickrate together with the not guiding that makes it 9 taken and 36% presence of Venom Sacs. on units its not picked at all on Lemures or furies 0. 0% picked which mostly has to do with their roles and I honestly only think that this pick being on these to units has to do with the old book. And on gremlins... What can I say, the only auto pick manifestation in the entire book with 17. 74% pickrate.

    Envy Manifestations seem to be some of the more useful manifestations out there. It is popular both as guiding version and auto include on gremlins. Greenfire eyes should be looked upon tho

    Manifestations of Gluttony
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    Broodmother, isnt picked a single time by a character and it most likely has to do with price, there seems to be a fear of DL characters regaining HP. Among the units being able to purchase it is only aviable to Flies and Fiends with the first being picked 0 times (most likely thanks to the external and internal problems of the flies themselfs) and a healthy Broodmother: 5. 22,7% picked on Fiends.

    Guiding Digestive Vomit: 1 taken. 5,8% pickrate together with the not guiding that makes it 2 taken and 11,7% presence of Digestive Vomit amongst characters, not a whole lot to be fair. On units it is aviable to 3 of them but only the Hellhound see any use with Digestive Vomit: 4. 18% picked. Perhaps overlook what units it is aviable to? Aswell as the problem with the Maw itself might increase the usage of the manifestation

    Unhinging Jaw, 1 taken. 5,8% pickrate together with the not guiding that makes it 2 taken and 11,7% presence of Unhinging Jaw by characters. Not a whole lot, but not many Maws either. By the two units which has it aviable only fiends see use for it with Unhinging Jaw: 6. 27,2% picked.

    Overall Gluttony manifestations see a healthy amount of use over a specific set of units. Perhaps there is some indication to be found on what makes that so.

    Manifestations of Pride
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    Tbh there is one winner within the Pride manifestations and we all know which it is.

    Bronze Backbone, Among characters we can see Guiding Bronze Backbone: 3 taken. 14% pickrate together with the not guiding that makes it 6 taken and 28,5% presence of Bronze Backbone. Units where it is aviable to has the following pick rates. Blazing glories 0. 0% picked. Succubi Bronze Backbone: 6. 31,5% picked, Myrmidons Bronze Backbone: 5. 33% picked. Overall a healthy manifestation which in no way seems to be auto include.

    Stiff Upper Lip , problem child number one, Never brought by a character, by the 3 units it being aviable to 3 units picked it. This is another one of those unneeded manifestations which doesnt go well with the overall kit of the DL army. No matter how you point it it will either be almost free or not taken. Just redesign it so we can have something useful.

    Horns of Hubris, it isnt picked by characters and only to Hellhounds out of the three units having access to it we see a 3. 13,6% picked. Its too low and there are similar items to this in the Manifestation section. This needs a redesign similarly to Stuff Upper lip.

    Pride manifestations arent in a good place, two of them arent useful and one is in a healthy spot.

    Manifestations of Sloth
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    Probably the loser of the sin specific manifestations.

    Chilling Yawn, an option aviable to Sentinel 1 taken by a harbringer 0% pickrate by a sentinel taking into account the amount of Sentinels brought and 5,5% pickrate amongst all chars. It might be used on Serpents, Hope Harvesters see some use in them 2. 25% picked. Aswell as MSu Succubi 3. 15,7% picked. Probably too expensive on Lemures 1. 5% picked

    Aura of Despair: 1 taken. 25% pickrate taking into account the amount of Sentinels brought and 5,5% pickrate amongst all chars. Aswell as 3. 37,5 picked for Hope Harvesters, Eidolons didnt see any use in them at all 0. 0% picked but that might have to do more with Eidolons themselfs.

    Segmented Shell never brought by a single character and units didnt see any use for it either. Overall its never picked and should probably get a hefty price dropp or even a redseign.

    Sloth manifestations arent that popular since they arent working for their intended characters aswell as being aviable to not popular picks. Something needs to be done

    Manifestations of Wrath
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    Whipcrack Tail, never seen on a character thanks to the state of the Scourge. on units however, Brazen beasts 2. 33% picked. Threshing engine 0. 0% picked, Myrmidons Whipcrack Tail: 9. 60% picked. Its a good competative pick on units that sees useage.

    Red Haze, same as Whipcrack, never seen on characters thanks to Scourge. Furies 1. 4,7% picked, Brazen beasts 2. 33% picked it sees some use with the Brazen beasts.

    Incendiary Ichor, is never seen on characters and amongst the units where it is aviable to it is only picked a single time amongst the 4 units it is aviable to. This manifestation is simply bad and the fact that it is one of the cheaper manifestations talks about its need for a redesign to make it useful

    Overall I have interpret the Manifestations as such as if they see little use but with good accessibility then there is something wrong with the manifestation itself. If the unit is played a majority of times without a manifestation it is either put on chaff duty or there is something wrong with the unit itself. Aswell as how often units or manifestations has been picked it paints a pattern.
    Overall I am quite pleased with the differentiation between units within this book. I Like the Hereditary aswell as the racial ability. Some of the characters have cool designs. The internal balance thanks to points and manifestations aviable is poor aswell as I do not like the overall lowering (by quite much) of the eliteness of daemons with the new FAB, and I can only hope that other races gets lower equally if we arent brought up to maintain our feel over other, this because eliteness is relative to others imo.
    The manifestation section for characters is a mess with low amount of point allowances actually being used aswell as many manifestation options being dead weight.
    There could perhpas be made a case to create more character only manifestations aswell as increasing their allowance to the normal 200 points or even above thanks to the single layer of complexity that haunts the army.
    Currently all eggs is in the Guiding manifestation basket and the most effective style to play if by far the mass spam of wizards or conclaves.
    The army has lost a lot of different playstyles and the feeling that GDs used to possess and gained something that is more similar to how EoS is forced to be played in order to stay competative.
    If possible perhaps this could be fixed and atleast I would be joyful thanks to that.

    Cheers and I hope that this might prove useful to someone either in the project on when turning to listbuilding
    Yours truly
  • Im pretty much done with analysing the ETC DL lists, it took some time and amounted up to 9 posts and a whole lot of text to read through.
    Perhaps we could get a discussion going about what I wrote? The good the bad, if I am totally of the rails about what I wrote and possible fixes.
    I am quite invested in DL and was so excited for the remake. However it has been on my mind since the day of the release that there is so much I would have wanted to be done differently and some of my points made are warped by this.
    The biggest problem is the characters and the fact that they are most competative if brought with guiding manifestations. Even the bigger daemons are tied to unit buffing.
    Overall the character selection doesnt feel that it follows the design of the rest of the book by being specialised. They are all wizards, they are all combat characters, they are all unit buffers.
    And with the smallest ability to change the direction of how to play my model, its prefered targets etc etc. It gets dull. I am envious of every other race that can actually build a character and have it perform the way they want it to. For me when fielding say a Scourge it feels more like im fielding a Giant than a character, when I am fielding a Courtesan it feels like im fielding an Kraken and when im fielding a Miser it feels like im fielding a steam tank.
    It doesnt have character to them and I cannot decide what my intended targets are nor do I gain much by using my budget...