The Future of Repeater Auxiliaries

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  • The Future of Repeater Auxiliaries

    So thanks for all the great ideas so far and keep them coming!

    Now, onto the RAs....Alot of you have voiced they'd be one of the top units that you want to see changed.

    So with that in mind here are some questions that hopefully a few of you can answer regarding the future.

    1) Are RA's a support unit (ie Grey Watchers - Fae Miasma) or an independent unit
    2) Do players even want to take a unit of 20+ RAs, like regardless of the changes - do you think this unit size should be seen?
    3) If so, should the special rules benefit the bigger unit? Or benefit both small units 10-14 models the same?
  • I see auxiliaries as the name suggests as support units that can clear chaff. The reason for multi shot weak weapons over stronger weapons is they cause more terror to the enemy, not necessarily wounds. They can be used to distract the enemy whilst the elite soldiers close the distance. I could even see a cool "blot out the sun" rule fitting thematically.

    But I do not see large blocks of these repeaters laying down the kind of firepower required to destroy the enemy.
    #freekillerinstinct
  • For the direct questions :

    1) Support unit. If else, please change the name, as they don't come from some sort of allies the name definitly suggest a support tool.

    2) I don't mind being able to field more than 20 model, but to make this usefull, there is the need of volley fire or cheap additionnal bodies. For now I will prefer having a hight cap at 20 model and focus on usability of small and medium units.

    3) First, how do you make a rule that benefit to bigger unit only ? ?( Well, I might have some ideas, but still, I don't think it's a good idea to give a complicated rule to a core unit (unless it shared through army/weapon).

    But all of this is hard to answer correctly, as we don't know what kind of shooting the army will tend to have (range, damage, special rules, mobility, etc). As the core shooter they probably just need to have the simpliest rules that reflect the trend (like it will be sad to have unwieldly if all the other shooter all have light troops and quick to fire, while the opposite is not true, a balista with move or fire is still good completing the latter description).
    1 - Start of the Charge Phase (and start of the Player Turn)
    2 - The Active Player chooses a unit and declares a Charge
  • KiRaHyuU wrote:

    1) Are RA's a support unit (ie Grey Watchers - Fae Miasma) or an independent unit
    2) Do players even want to take a unit of 20+ RAs, like regardless of the changes - do you think this unit size should be seen?
    3) If so, should the special rules benefit the bigger unit? Or benefit both small units 10-14 models the same?
    1. I can see that direction.
    2. I have no objections on bigger units, but don't think it suits DE as much, unless they are a hybrid shooting/melee unit.
    3. See below, I think this route is a bad one to take, as it might destroy more possibilities as it creates. It may force the RA into a narrow role, which is either hit or miss.

    KiRaHyuU wrote:

    RAs inflicted X amount of wounds on an enemy unit then Y happens.
    For that, they need MUCH stronger shooting, because right now, they do too little damage to ever do anything.

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  • KiRaHyuU wrote:

    So thanks for all the great ideas so far and keep them coming!

    Now, onto the RAs....Alot of you have voiced they'd be one of the top units that you want to see changed.

    So with that in mind here are some questions that hopefully a few of you can answer regarding the future.

    1) Are RA's a support unit (ie Grey Watchers - Fae Miasma) or an independent unit
    2) Do players even want to take a unit of 20+ RAs, like regardless of the changes - do you think this unit size should be seen?
    3) If so, should the special rules benefit the bigger unit? Or benefit both small units 10-14 models the same?
    All of those depends on what way the DE are going to go - the quicky deadly blades who hurry into fray?
    1)then some support shots debuff is fine
    2)is it the strong magic and shooting defensive? 20it is
    3) no. benefit for both.

    maybe choosable "poison" on darts?- this makes this, max 10models unit, this makes that, no restriction. etc.
  • KiRaHyuU wrote:

    1) Are RA's a support unit (ie Grey Watchers - Fae Miasma) or an independent unit
    Yes
    I'm obviously in favor of shooting into close combat giving +1 combat res instead of casualties. But an actual debuff could be done. It has to be balanced with what the academy bonus's are.

    KiRaHyuU wrote:

    2) Do players even want to take a unit of 20+ RAs, like regardless of the changes - do you think this unit size should be seen?
    No to 20+. Yes to max of 20.

    KiRaHyuU wrote:

    3) If so, should the special rules benefit the bigger unit? Or benefit both small units 10-14 models the same?
    Benefit the same. Like don't put a cap of "if under 15 models then the rules is active". That's EoS territory.
    10-12 models should be ideal. taking more is just to fill out core points, taking 20 is really just there for mage bunker and having a fun fringe list, or for bigger point games.

    ---------------------------
    And change the name from Repeater Auxiliaries. Because the Roman theme of DE makes this definition refer to non-citizen troops.
  • Alexwellace wrote:

    The book wants to double down on MSU/MMU, and the guidelines state that academy units will have inter-unut synergies. Further more the light crossbows are said to be a psychological/anti-slave weaponry that suffers from a short range but high mobility.

    I personally think the answer is pretty straight forward, that the mobility is handled from the weapon side and the damage is handled from the academy inter-unit synergy.

    Repeater crossbow. 18" Q2F, current profile.

    Academy rule, Withering/Surpressive fire.

    Units that are impacted by discipline (none fearless/itp) suffer -1 adv/March when a unit inflicts at least 1 hit on them. This stacks if multiple units shoot at the same target. When 2 or more reaper auxiliaries target the same unit they reroll 1s to hit.

    Pros
    - supports MMU/MSU, if you run two units into range of an infantry unit you can -2 to it's advance. But it doesn't effect fearless units, i.e counter play.
    - Indirectly supports DE charge-dependance. If the enemy fails there charge, you usually get yours.
    - Surpressive fire is reserved for academy units, not Hunter units (shades, riders) thus isn't abusable and shows core discipline.
    Cons
    - has specific targets, psychologically maliable infantry units (i.e...rioters)
    - Still hasn't got huge output. But the reroll of 1s when crossfiring gives a strong militaristic feeling.
    Definitely a workable idea! My question would be what about the concerns of pricing and trying to balance it right.

    IE Should the rule be priced at the assumption that people will always take at least two units as there’s a substantial benefit in having multiple units. Finally, how does it scale up if i were to bring like 4 units of them, would that potentially stop a unit from charging?

    Think there’s an idea there just needs tweaking so it can be easily priced.
  • In my perfect world I'd like to see 2x10-14 Reaper auxillaries be taken in core, alongside maybe 2 larger spearmen blocks. A support unit who's role is to help the world famous dread elf infantry units get the charge against similar infantry based foes. They would do this either by clearing chaff, or by slowing down/hindering an opposing unit.

    In my above suggestion I would suggest pricing between the two effects (- advance rate and re-roll 1's to hit) to take into account that maybe ~50% of the units in the game aren't effected by basic leadership (fearless, immune to psych, undead, daemons), which I would suggest be immune to the surpressive fire slowing effects. I'd like this effect because it clearly shows that units that don't care for their own safety cannot be surpressed, and clearly characterises the Repeater crossbow as a terror-weapon over a military one. The re-roll 1's effect is something I'd assume to be active 70% of the time, being generous.

    As for stacking the speed debuff, I'd probably throw in to a minimum speed of Adv 2, even through a hail of boltfire you can still crawl. Do note that I'm suggesting Withering fire -1 from Adv, and still only -1 from March rate. If the opponent wants to march into our faces, that should be allowed. Auxiliaries have poor lateral movement, marching through the hail to get an easy charge next turn should be an option if Auxillaries aren't defended. The design idea is meant to stop opposing infantry charging your infantry, not to stop the opposing infantry getting close if it wants to. And also shows that auxiliaries left alone won't accomplish much in slowing a unit down from getting to an objective, they are a support deterrent unit, not a specialist unit.

    Actual pricing wise? Not a damn clue. First priority is generating a design that you'd like to play, second priority is messing with the price until people play it. And I'd say if someone wants to take 4x10 auxillaries, which all move within 18'' of the same unit, and shoot at that same unit, they deserve to inflict -4 march rate. Maybe, to encourage MMU over MSU, supressive fire should activate upon securing a wound, rather than a hit. There are targets 10 auxiliaries might not inflict a single wound upon limiting their effectiveness, driving people towards the 14 and 16 man units I'd like to see. All this should help keep the price at something reasonable. 18'' is a very short range, for this sort of unit to be viable it either needs to be reasonable when caught in a fight (Pathfinders) or have a gimmick that makes getting that fight harder than it should be (Eidolons, aura of despair).
  • Withering fire - attack attribute - shooting.

    When a unit with the Withering fire attack attribute successfully rolls to wound an enemy unit immediately place a single counter on that unit. An enemy unit can acquire up to 3 counters per player turn, and these counters are removed at the end of the opposing players movement phase. With the exception of models with the Unstable, Unbreakable and Fearless special rules, for each counter the enemy unit suffers -1'' advance rate and -1'' march rate. In addition when a model with the Withering fire attribute targets an enemy unit that has 1 or more Withering fire counters applied, that model may re-roll failed to hit rolls of 1.



    When trying to word it a few rules issues cropped up. Since models nominate targets 1 at a time that forced the re-rolls to only apply to each subsequent auxiliary unit after the first. I'm also not sure I liked it activating upon unsaved wounds, which can be a little hit or miss w/ Str3 AP1. I think I'd rather it activate upon a successful to-wound roll, with the armour save being irrelevant. Being pelted with bolts should be daunting, even when they're clanging off your armour. Do you guys think this is something you'd like to see for auxiliaries? Have to admit I'd prefer this than the bayonet idea, lets leave the CC to the CC specialists, and find a different niche for auxiliaries. Feel free to re-word it to proper legal-ese, I think people have the basic idea I'm trying to put across. If there's a better way to right it go right ahead.
  • I thinking in something like this for Auxiliares rule of support fire similar to "Cover Volley" of HBE but that works in reverse.
    When an frienly unit declares a Charge a single friendly unit of Repeater Auxiliaries may immediately perform a "Stand and Shoot Charge Reaction" againts the Charge enemy unit with the following conditions and restrictions: .... bla, bla, bla.
    If the enemy unit suffer any casuality provocate by "Cover Volley" in the next Combat phase cant use the rule Support Attacks.

    That is all
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  • KiRaHyuU wrote:

    setrius wrote:

    If the enemy unit suffer any casuality provocate by "Cover Volley" in the next Combat phase cant use the rule Support Attacks.
    hahahaha death to line formation :)
    But yes it would help our combat defence, less attacks equals less casualties.
    This is the idea. :P

    That is all
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  • 1) support unit
    2) if someone wants to but shouldn’t be designed for
    3) 10-16 is fine

    I think the multi shots at a S3 is fine it’s about the same output with better spike potential it’s just the cost that seems high.

    Given the daemons book it’s quite worrying 9th will become laden with special rules bloat, hopefully this won’t be carried onto all books as it’ll be difficult for existing players never mind trying to attract new players.
  • I think auxiliarys and also the repeater handguns on corsairs are a pricing proplem. The unit for sure doesn´t need additional special rules.
    Perhaps some academy synergy with other units, but currently I can´t see what would fit and not be just a copy of EoS rules.
    Sure they would benefit a lot when they had 3 ranks to fire, having a somewhat safer formation (3 deep) for CC. But I am also sure this is a viable argument for a lot of shooting units. :)
  • Cam wrote:

    Given the daemons book it’s quite worrying 9th will become laden with special rules bloat, hopefully this won’t be carried onto all books as it’ll be difficult for existing players never mind trying to attract new players.
    This is something to keep in mind for sure. Its easy to go down the plethora of special rules route and make everything unique but sometimes it becomes too much. With DE having cult and beast themes there might not be room for lots of special rules in core.

    berti wrote:

    I think auxiliarys and also the repeater handguns on corsairs are a pricing proplem. The unit for sure doesn´t need additional special rules.
    Perhaps some academy synergy with other units, but currently I can´t see what would fit and not be just a copy of EoS rules.
    Sure they would benefit a lot when they had 3 ranks to fire, having a somewhat safer formation (3 deep) for CC. But I am also sure this is a viable argument for a lot of shooting units. :)
    I agree. With reduction to 18" as well(perhaps shorter on corsairs) pricing is an even bigger concern.
    Its one of the reasons I feel it needs to become a CC unit with access to cc weapons.

    I came up with a rule for academy units that lets them support and buff each other without feeling like Empire.
    it does make the Repeater Auxillaries a tad more CC focused.

    its in my homebrew section.
  • following thoughts before:
    Repeater Auxiliaries
    Shrieker bolts:

    If the number of successful hits + enemy ranks + enemy files is 15 or more then the enemy unit loses 1 rank of supporting attacks. Until the end of the next player turn
    This rule can effect the same unit multiple times.

    For example 32 spearmen in line formation can be affected up to 3 times.

    Not quite as good as disabling supporting attacks all together. But now multiple units firing at the same target can each disable an additional rank of supporting attacks.
    #freekillerinstinct
  • KiRaHyuU wrote:

    berti wrote:

    Regarding axiliarys:

    And losing parry in the same moment?
    LOL! My bad i should have qualified that...but yes good pick up!
    Bayonet:
    Two Handed. Attacks made with a Bayonet gain +1 Armour Penetration. Attacks made by a Bayonet gain +1 Ag and an additional +1 Armour Penetration in the First Round of Combat provided the unit is not engaged in it's Flank or Rear Facing. Models on foot wielding a Bayonet gain Parry.

    There now pick it apart!
    Something from the other LAB thread.