The Future of Repeater Auxiliaries

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  • Peacemaker wrote:

    Cam wrote:

    Peacemaker wrote:

    replace handbow with throwing weapons. ...it's basically what it is anyway.
    You’d lose March and shoot and 4” range. It’s pretty big.
    well obviously units like corsairs would get the march and shoot in their profiles. The loss of 4" range is in lines with the guidelines for reduced range.

    What I mean is it’s effectively a 9” reduction on a weapon that already isn’t used.
  • 1) Are RA's a support unit (ie Grey Watchers - Fae Miasma) or an independent unit
    I see them as a support unit, they are taken to provide covering fire as other units move up into position, I like the idea of targets that take a certain number of hits / casualties have their advance rate slowed.

    2) Do players even want to take a unit of 20+ RAs, like regardless of the changes - do you think this unit size should be seen?
    I think unit sizes should remain flexible and open so as not to enforce cookie cutter builds, leave it up to the player to find a balance that suits their playstyle and army composition.

    3) If so, should the special rules benefit the bigger unit? Or benefit both small units 10-14 models the same?
    Special rules should probably trigger for larger units, as being hit with a small number of bolts shouldn't really cause any special rules to trigger. Whereas turning the sky black and unleashes a barrage of bolts makes a lot more sense for special rules to trigger.

    Also I don't like the idea of only firing 2 shots, when I think of a 'repeater' type weapon, I'm certainly not imagining 2 shots, maybe 3 or even 4 shots (but maybe no AP if we go with 4).
  • I seriously don't get it...if all DE shooting weapons are reduced in range, I predict that they will basically never be used by anyone. Despite any special rules they might have. Why waste points on shooting that might help a CC unit, when you could just boost the said CC unit?

    And if the DE army is all about getting into CC, we need to be able to clear chaff. Well, that's going to be even harder if your shhoting units basically have to be within charge range of the enemy.

    The only solution I see as kinda viable is a CC units that has xbows (like the old city guard or what they were called). Otherwise, it's going to be a lot of wasted space in the book.
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  • i use 2 units of auxuliars in pff games and they are ok with the hereditary. The problem is that the cast value for shooting rerroll to wound is just insane. But i usually cast on 3/4 dices (with all the disadvantages it have). Tho other main problem is being overshooted with 24".

    They will never be competitive in short range scenarios becouse we have tons of better scoring in core.

    I think they will be competitive if they can shoot properly. All cc core units have more wounds and are cheaper.

    Maybe with a more fair hereditary cast value and a range of 36" they eoul hold a different niche in the core section.

    Cheers
  • Handbows is propably just a point cost proplem. 4 points in addition to the high base costs of corsairs and on top of the paired weapon is to much.

    Make the unit automatically have paired weapon, and price handbow much lower than currently. And take away core tax on the corsairs.
    Rest of the rules for corsairs can stay the same in my opinion. Pricing can solve this.


    Repeater auxiliarys....depend a lot of the role shooting should have in DE army in future.
    Short ranged inferior shots (low strength, low to hit chance) make no sense. More so with the increasing amount of hard target everywhere (DL book)
    Either have high quality shooting with shorter range (a bit like ID Citadel guard) or the shooters need to be cheap. (not like current DE shooters)
  • When we get some free slots in the art schedule I'll try and get the DE Repeater Crossbow Shematic shown as part of a spoiler, that may provide some insight where the TT might take the weapon. :)

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  • noir wrote:

    DarkSky wrote:

    I seriously do not understand some of the suggestions.

    The Repeater Handbow is the worst ranged weapon in the game. It was specifically introduced as a nerfed version of Throwing Weapons, because the team didn't want DE to be able to cast Perception of Strength on Corsairs and get S4 ranged attacks. That was the only reason why they did that.
    ?( who told you that? i don't think this is true at all.
    Sad but true.

    This was when DE had access to Path of Black Magic and Shamanism. Both paths had a spell to buff the strength.

    That is all
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  • noir wrote:

    DarkSky wrote:

    I seriously do not understand some of the suggestions.

    The Repeater Handbow is the worst ranged weapon in the game. It was specifically introduced as a nerfed version of Throwing Weapons, because the team didn't want DE to be able to cast Perception of Strength on Corsairs and get S4 ranged attacks. That was the only reason why they did that.
    ?( who told you that? i don't think this is true at all.
    It happened quite a while ago during overall Beta Phase I think.
    It was the time, when we had the old magic paths with access to cheap spells to get +1 Str (which also meant +1 AP).
    During that time the Corsairs ranged weapon changed from:

    Throwing Weapon: Range 12'', Shots 2, Quick to Fire, Str as User
    to
    Repeater Handbow: Range 12'', Shots 2, Quick to Fire, Str 3

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  • so thats where the scare comes from? The OLD magic paths? Lol
    Yet they kept up that scare with the current cosmology which would hardly be OP.
    If ypu are casting the cosmo strength spell then you are not casting a magic missile, you are not casting stuff from witchcraft or occultism.
    So not OP anymore.

    ----------

    oh, the ETC lists had people taking corsairs as small units. Some with handbows.
    Those lists scored quite high.
  • noir wrote:

    DarkSky wrote:

    I seriously do not understand some of the suggestions.

    The Repeater Handbow is the worst ranged weapon in the game. It was specifically introduced as a nerfed version of Throwing Weapons, because the team didn't want DE to be able to cast Perception of Strength on Corsairs and get S4 ranged attacks. That was the only reason why they did that.
    ?( who told you that? i don't think this is true at all.
    I swear to Sunna I read that on this forum in about 2016. It’s the general perception anyway.
  • noir wrote:

    DarkSky wrote:

    I seriously do not understand some of the suggestions.

    The Repeater Handbow is the worst ranged weapon in the game. It was specifically introduced as a nerfed version of Throwing Weapons, because the team didn't want DE to be able to cast Perception of Strength on Corsairs and get S4 ranged attacks. That was the only reason why they did that.
    ?( who told you that? i don't think this is true at all.
    It was a long, long time ago, I believe in 0.8 or 0.9, and it was specifically introduced because Dread Elves had a banner that gave the unit +1 strength (back when Str and AP were linked), and we had multiple paths of magic that could give +1 strength. So it was introduced to ensure that we couldn't have a unit just fire off a metric buttload of str 5, ap2, aim 3, quick to fire shots. This was also back when Quick to Fire meant that you always got a stand and shoot.

    Since this was pre-1.1, strategies that were too powerful tended to get hit twice when they got out of hand, and this situation was not an exception. Corsairs were nerfed in two ways: 1) The banner was removed from the book entirely, because it was kinda bonkers back in the day. And 2) Handbows were created to literally just be worse throwing weapons, because there were 0 ways to buff their damage output outside of -toughness/ -arm save debuff spells on the right targets, which were much harder to actually get back off in the day. The biggest slap in the face is that handbows were considered better than throwing weapons or something, because they were initially more expensive than throwing weapons had been on the corsairs, and only after multiple patches did they finally get a more reasonable price point of half your standard throwing weapon (even if the most reasonable price point is 0 points for this nothing weapon).

    Hand bows have continued to be garbage ever since, but they haven't been looked at seriously for... some reason. *Shrug*
    Apparently I can't have mod tags in my signature anymore. Sadness is cast. It is placed on the stack. Sadness resolves.

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  • Gnomes2169 wrote:

    noir wrote:

    DarkSky wrote:

    I seriously do not understand some of the suggestions.

    The Repeater Handbow is the worst ranged weapon in the game. It was specifically introduced as a nerfed version of Throwing Weapons, because the team didn't want DE to be able to cast Perception of Strength on Corsairs and get S4 ranged attacks. That was the only reason why they did that.
    ?( who told you that? i don't think this is true at all.
    It was a long, long time ago, I believe in 0.8 or 0.9, and it was specifically introduced because Dread Elves had a banner that gave the unit +1 strength (back when Str and AP were linked), and we had multiple paths of magic that could give +1 strength. So it was introduced to ensure that we couldn't have a unit just fire off a metric buttload of str 5, ap2, aim 3, quick to fire shots. This was also back when Quick to Fire meant that you always got a stand and shoot.
    Since this was pre-1.1, strategies that were too powerful tended to get hit twice when they got out of hand, and this situation was not an exception. Corsairs were nerfed in two ways: 1) The banner was removed from the book entirely, because it was kinda bonkers back in the day. And 2) Handbows were created to literally just be worse throwing weapons, because there were 0 ways to buff their damage output outside of -toughness/ -arm save debuff spells on the right targets, which were much harder to actually get back off in the day. The biggest slap in the face is that handbows were considered better than throwing weapons or something, because they were initially more expensive than throwing weapons had been on the corsairs, and only after multiple patches did they finally get a more reasonable price point of half your standard throwing weapon (even if the most reasonable price point is 0 points for this nothing weapon).

    Hand bows have continued to be garbage ever since, but they haven't been looked at seriously for... some reason. *Shrug*
    okay the way I see it is that it is most likely that repeater handbows are here to stay cause the player base has got the models fitting it. Also what was before 1.0 does not really count.

    The last update gave them March and shoot which is already something. Also this time the Team has got permission to look at every entry closely in the book. So it’s not about quick fixes or banning OP stuff. I’m sure everyone on the team does his best to make corsairs viable - as well as other entries in the book.

    A little general reminder to the community: please as always stay as nice and as progressive as possible. This is especially important since many of the important guys watch the DE threads closely - and we wouldn’t want to repel them or make them upset but be interested in the discussion onwards. So blaming the team for mistakes over 3 years ago isn’t helping. Instead we should concentrate on the future!
  • noir wrote:

    okay the way I see it is that it is most likely that repeater handbows are here to stay cause the player base has got the models fitting it. Also what was before 1.0 does not really count.
    throwing weapons is generic, xbows are specific. And the corsair kit did come with a harpoon to throw. Going generic isn't a problem for modeling.

    Also, we gotta get some drawbacks somewhere so giving corsairs throwing weapons with march and shoot is a nerf in range. Especially if we expect the corsairs to become different then a close combat orientated Reapeater Xbow Unit.
  • noir wrote:

    A little general reminder to the community: please as always stay as nice and as progressive as possible. This is especially important since many of the important guys watch the DE threads closely - and we wouldn’t want to repel them or make them upset but be interested in the discussion onwards. So blaming the team for mistakes over 3 years ago isn’t helping. Instead we should concentrate on the future!
    Well now, where did I blame the current team for anything? In fact, I went out of my way to point out that the team at the time was double-nerfing things, which comes with the implication that the current team is different... which they most certainly are. You asked what DarkSky was talking about, and I was trying to be as thorough with my answer as possible, not going out of my way to insult or blame anyone among the current staff for the state of affairs.

    As for this:

    noir wrote:

    Also what was before 1.0 does not really count.

    You were, again, asking for an explanation. The fact is that this change happened before 1.0, and the reasons for it existed back then. If the reasoning behind the initial change is no longer relevant, then hey, it's no longer relevant. But it doesn't change the history behind the introductions of the weapons.

    But as for the part of the post that wasn't part of the history lesson, well:

    Gnomes2169 wrote:

    Hand bows have continued to be garbage ever since, but they haven't been looked at seriously for... some reason. *Shrug*
    This is a bit cheeky, admittedly, but I'm also trying to subtly suggest that, if they are here to say, they need to have some real changes implemented to make them work better. Because currently, they are what is known in most games as a "nothing burger" that can sometimes chip away a unit or damage some chaff, but the damage is so negligible that the loss of the weapon from the rulebook entirely wouldn't change anything about how Corsairs are played, or how the army runs in general.

    Making them count as paired weapons in CC is probably the easiest (and most effective) way to go about changing them. It would also make them a relatively decent option for a character to take, rather than just a place to put 5 extra points that you somehow couldn't spend before, which you will likely forget about 99% of the time because... well, your character likely is going to charge if they get that close, and unless they are deployed in the corsairs who shoot with them, a single handbow won't really do anything.
    Apparently I can't have mod tags in my signature anymore. Sadness is cast. It is placed on the stack. Sadness resolves.

    Here have my homebrew
  • Gnomes2169 wrote:

    noir wrote:

    A little general reminder to the community: please as always stay as nice and as progressive as possible. This is especially important since many of the important guys watch the DE threads closely - and we wouldn’t want to repel them or make them upset but be interested in the discussion onwards. So blaming the team for mistakes over 3 years ago isn’t helping. Instead we should concentrate on the future!
    Well now, where did I blame the current team for anything? In fact, I went out of my way to point out that the team at the time was double-nerfing things, which comes with the implication that the current team is different... which they most certainly are. You asked what DarkSky was talking about, and I was trying to be as thorough with my answer as possible, not going out of my way to insult or blame anyone among the current staff for the state of affairs.
    As for this:

    noir wrote:

    Also what was before 1.0 does not really count.
    You were, again, asking for an explanation. The fact is that this change happened before 1.0, and the reasons for it existed back then. If the reasoning behind the initial change is no longer relevant, then hey, it's no longer relevant. But it doesn't change the history behind the introductions of the weapons.

    But as for the part of the post that wasn't part of the history lesson, well:

    Gnomes2169 wrote:

    Hand bows have continued to be garbage ever since, but they haven't been looked at seriously for... some reason. *Shrug*
    This is a bit cheeky, admittedly, but I'm also trying to subtly suggest that, if they are here to say, they need to have some real changes implemented to make them work better. Because currently, they are what is known in most games as a "nothing burger" that can sometimes chip away a unit or damage some chaff, but the damage is so negligible that the loss of the weapon from the rulebook entirely wouldn't change anything about how Corsairs are played, or how the army runs in general.
    Making them count as paired weapons in CC is probably the easiest (and most effective) way to go about changing them. It would also make them a relatively decent option for a character to take, rather than just a place to put 5 extra points that you somehow couldn't spend before, which you will likely forget about 99% of the time because... well, your character likely is going to charge if they get that close, and unless they are deployed in the corsairs who shoot with them, a single handbow won't really do anything.
    It was not directed at you which is why I wrote a general reminder to the wise community. Sorry if that came across the wrong way :)