Dread Elves LAB Design guidelines Feedback thread

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  • duxbuse wrote:

    Shako wrote:

    On the same vein to increase the dread part:
    Limiting Inspiring Presence and/or Rally around the flag
    Again, not necessarly for every unit or charge dependent, just throwing out random ideas in case somebody from the LAB will get inspired by it
    I like this idea.Devastating charge. Enemy units can only receive inspiring presence or rally around the flag from friendly units within 6"

    Benefits de spreading out
    Honestly this kind of rule feels like magic item(artifact) territory rather than any kind of army wide rule.

    Artifact of Impending Doom
    Enemy units in base contact with the Bearer can't use Inspiring Presence or Rally around the Flag.


    This type of item being in the game would help curb deathstars or make those deathstars a bad matchup for a Dread Elf army with this item. And of course this lets the DE player help break castle lists.
  • Peacemaker wrote:

    Artifact of Impending Doom
    Enemy units in base contact with the Bearer can't use Inspiring Presence or Rally around the Flag.
    Theoretically and thematically I like this very much. Really puts the "Dread" into "Dread Elves". On the other hand, with the abundant fearless units and armies running around, I always think: Why even bother?

    E.g. look at WDG. They are not even one of the top contenders on leadership (at least their guidelines didn't read that way as far as I remember), yet they get Battle Fever and Path of the Favoured tacked on anything, plus a better Dis value than Elves have. What do you care about Dis 10, when you get re-rolls on the most important tests anyway? This btw is in addition to 14 entries with fearless in their book plus one unit with Insignificant and three entries with Unburnt.

    When I look at the state of discipline related game mechanics right now, I feel very sad.

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  • Make them roll Discipline tests with maximized rolls.
    They'll still be less affected then other races but that's what this game is about.

    Again, the above is not meant for the whole army and just a random idea for a unit entry (*cough* hinting at my suggestion of removing assassin and replacing it with an infiltrator-type *cough*) or a magic item.
  • Peacemaker wrote:

    duxbuse wrote:

    Shako wrote:

    On the same vein to increase the dread part:
    Limiting Inspiring Presence and/or Rally around the flag
    Again, not necessarly for every unit or charge dependent, just throwing out random ideas in case somebody from the LAB will get inspired by it
    I like this idea.Devastating charge. Enemy units can only receive inspiring presence or rally around the flag from friendly units within 6"
    Benefits de spreading out
    Honestly this kind of rule feels like magic item(artifact) territory rather than any kind of army wide rule.
    Artifact of Impending Doom
    Enemy units in base contact with the Bearer can't use Inspiring Presence or Rally around the Flag.


    This type of item being in the game would help curb deathstars or make those deathstars a bad matchup for a Dread Elf army with this item. And of course this lets the DE player help break castle lists.
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  • I must admit I skipped 4 pages and directly go with my feedback :)

    The overall read of the document is good. For most of it I like what style for DE is wanted.

    Never the less some major points stick out to me.
    1. Cunning
      I started DE back in the days of Storm of Chaos, e.g. where DE were the under dogs and you need to play them unorthodox to win. That was a bit spoiled with 7th Edition (even if now the power level was more than ok). I would love to see some stress on the part of the army/playstyle that allows a play which is not straight forward. It is in the guideline with the term cunning - just to be followed by a list of what is not allowed (special deployment, restrictions on movement etc.).
      Just from reading I got the impression that the guideline describes an elite (aka expensive) army with no clever ways to deal with enemies. The combination of restrictions, Res 3 and elite might result in an army that must rush mindlessly forward or must include insane amounts of monsters. Both variants would not be my personal taste and would be quite boring.
    2. How-To get into CC
      I think the limitations given might leave no room for a good solution. DE should be MSU/MMU with elite R3 units (fine) that excel in CC (also fine) - but most of the measures to enable the fragile and expensive units reach CC are on the restriction list. Playing WDG for the first month of this year I saw what problems this book had to bring the CC power (R4 + Armour) to combat. The design guideline reads quite similiar - except it adds some restrictions with R3 and a price tag on top of that.
    3. Limited Movement & Close combat specialists
      "Combat units are primarily ranked up blocks with limited maneuverability" does not work together with the Close combat specialists
      which excel against dedicated targets. If you have units that have dedicated targets the army concepts needs to enable the movement game. E.g. victory or defeat is determined whether the army is able to bring their combat specialists to the dedicated targets - or not. But this would give a big emphasis on the movement part of the army (like DE was).
    4. Monster
      Given the limitations I fear Monster will be an integral part of the army. As monsters are one of the easy solutions to M5 and low R restrictions. This will make the army design prone to the monster meta - e.g. if monster kill capabilities are state of the art it might take away a crucial part of the army design.
      Apart from that I like one or two monster in my army, I am also happy with none. But I would dislike the idea of being a circus director...or at least that would be another army.
    All this together leave the impression that the design guide line has good picture of the style the army should have - but too much focus on restrictions and not how an interesting play could work.
    If you do not like 9th Age - fine, it is your right to do so. But do not spoil our fun - go and find your game, be it AoS, 5th Edition, Magic or Dublo

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Uthegen ().

  • Now that we have some lists and feedback from ETC 2019, I would be very interested in the general point of view from the ADT (or anybody somewhat involved):

    How much overlap do you perceive between
    a) individual lists with good results
    and
    b) the overall trends in DE list building

    and the LAB DE guidelines?

    Are the lists you currently see, the kind of lists you want to see after DE rework?

    -----

    From my point of view, we see a lot of lists with little overlap with the DE LAB Guidelines. In the successful lists, Infantry plays a very tiny role. The premier combat block seems to be Dancers for their staying power (not shock troop at all), and the real power houses in the book seem to be the units with the highest comparabe toughness (i.e. Raptor Chariots, Res 5, Arm 4 for less than 200 points) or the greatest mobility (i.e. Dark Acolytes).

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  • lifeasalizard wrote:

    "B.5 Magic
    DE focus on a strong offensive casting - both ranged damage as well as CC support...
    Ranged damage and hexes followed by augments are the primary magical tools used in warfare....

    Path access should be the same as in current book."

    What?

    That doesnt' follow.
    I will give to Oracles these Paths of Magic;
    • Alchemy, Evocation, Witchcraft, Divination, Cosmology.
    • Cult of Yema Oracle swap Evocation for Occultism.


    That is all
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  • Paths they have access to now, stay. That was pretty much set from the beginning T9A World was created. I have not heard otherwise that we can swap out Paths, for any book. This has the 1% disclaimer that “you never know”, but I’d bet on the 99% that it stays as is. The task now is how to make those Paths work better towards DE guidelines. Different spells for Acolytes? Spells attached to banners as bound spells? Assassin Triumvirates that can be upgraded to Conclaves dishing out Divination snipes? Occultism Oracle reduces the casting value of her spells for every 10 models in her unit? There are lots of quirky ideas that can be used to increase magic to meet the guidelines.
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  • skipschnit wrote:

    Paths they have access to now, stay. That was pretty much set from the beginning T9A World was created. I have not heard otherwise that we can swap out Paths, for any book. This has the 1% disclaimer that “you never know”, but I’d bet on the 99% that it stays as is. The task now is how to make those Paths work better towards DE guidelines. Different spells for Acolytes? Spells attached to banners as bound spells? Assassin Triumvirates that can be upgraded to Conclaves dishing out Divination snipes? Occultism Oracle reduces the casting value of her spells for every 10 models in her unit? There are lots of quirky ideas that can be used to increase magic to meet the guidelines.
    Yeah you never know... :P
  • skipschnit wrote:

    Paths they have access to now, stay. That was pretty much set from the beginning T9A World was created. I have not heard otherwise that we can swap out Paths, for any book. This has the 1% disclaimer that “you never know”, but I’d bet on the 99% that it stays as is. The task now is how to make those Paths work better towards DE guidelines. Different spells for Acolytes? Spells attached to banners as bound spells? Assassin Triumvirates that can be upgraded to Conclaves dishing out Divination snipes? Occultism Oracle reduces the casting value of her spells for every 10 models in her unit? There are lots of quirky ideas that can be used to increase magic to meet the guidelines.
    Seems an Odd design limit to set yourself for no reason...
  • skipschnit wrote:

    The task now is how to make those Paths work better towards DE guidelines.
    Question is: Are the paths not working towards those? Without a big change in overall magic rules, it's really hard to implement a magic strength, especially something specific as "good at hexing", outside of straight casting bonuses or casting level reductions of course.

    A repeating pattern we see in magic rules is the interaction with veil tokens, so maybe we can use those for a specific effect, that fits.

    Generally I would stay away from bound spells. Too many other armies already use those and they always feel the opposite of mighty caster to me. More like "non magic user casting a spell", like the Totems or Prayers. Especially do not do spells on Assassins, unless you want the Assassin to be a magical user in the fluff.

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  • noir wrote:

    skipschnit wrote:

    Paths they have access to now, stay. That was pretty much set from the beginning T9A World was created. I have not heard otherwise that we can swap out Paths, for any book. This has the 1% disclaimer that “you never know”, but I’d bet on the 99% that it stays as is. The task now is how to make those Paths work better towards DE guidelines. Different spells for Acolytes? Spells attached to banners as bound spells? Assassin Triumvirates that can be upgraded to Conclaves dishing out Divination snipes? Occultism Oracle reduces the casting value of her spells for every 10 models in her unit? There are lots of quirky ideas that can be used to increase magic to meet the guidelines.
    Yeah you never know... :P
    Always have an escape route :) In this case the you might be able to bump that up a few %
  • skipschnit wrote:

    Paths they have access to now, stay. That was pretty much set from the beginning T9A World was created. I have not heard otherwise that we can swap out Paths, for any book. This has the 1% disclaimer that “you never know”, but I’d bet on the 99% that it stays as is. The task now is how to make those Paths work better towards DE guidelines. Different spells for Acolytes? Spells attached to banners as bound spells? Assassin Triumvirates that can be upgraded to Conclaves dishing out Divination snipes? Occultism Oracle reduces the casting value of her spells for every 10 models in her unit? There are lots of quirky ideas that can be used to increase magic to meet the guidelines.

    It *can* change a little - some Paths are less firm than others - but it is unlikely DE specifically will add any of the Paths they do not currently have, as the Paths have strong BG elements.

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