Dread Elves LAB Design guidelines Feedback thread

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  • Darock wrote:

    Are Legionnaires professional soldiers?

    I always thought DE are more early Roman Army Style. So before the Marian Reforms. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_reforms

    That would mean the Legionaries are NOT professional soldiers but some levy troops who have to pay for their own equipment.


    Or did I messed the background up?
    They go to academy and are professionally trained.

    At least some of their weapons are provided by the state. Their armor might be as well, I can't remember.

    They fight for pay (war booty or otherwise), and at their choosing. They are not levies.

    That's clearly professional soldiers.
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

    Legal

    Playtester

    Chariot Command HQ

  • Squirrelloid wrote:

    Darock wrote:

    Are Legionnaires professional soldiers?

    I always thought DE are more early Roman Army Style. So before the Marian Reforms. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_reforms

    That would mean the Legionaries are NOT professional soldiers but some levy troops who have to pay for their own equipment.


    Or did I messed the background up?
    They go to academy and are professionally trained.
    At least some of their weapons are provided by the state. Their armor might be as well, I can't remember.

    They fight for pay (war booty or otherwise), and at their choosing. They are not levies.

    That's clearly professional soldiers.
    I believe they are trained in making their own equipment.

    Army Design Team

  • Cam wrote:

    @Squirrelloid. 4+ in core is dwarf/infernal/saurian territory and just behind Warriors. These are supposed to be some of the strongest armoured armies too.
    It's not just about core. DH has 3+ infantry. ID has 3+ infantry in core. SA has 3+ infantry. Warriors has 3+ infantry in core and 1+ cavalry.

    Orcs have 4+ core infantry (and as 3+ infantry in special)! HbE has 2+ in core (and 4+ infantry in special), as does KoE. (Cavalry, but it's still core, and they can just not take infantry at all). EoS has 1+ cavalry in core (and imo, heavy infantry should get HA and shield as an option - but we're not on their book yet).

    4+ core infantry does not make you anywhere near top tier in armor. That's 8 armies that are indisputably better at armor than DE, even with 4+ core infantry. There are 16 factions, ergo, being at best 9th (and VC at least would probably still be better overall at armor) is not 'top tier', it's just below the median point. 5+ core and 4+ special infantry is something UD has, which are weak at armor.

    Even VS has 4+ core infantry (at least against shooting).
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

    Legal

    Playtester

    Chariot Command HQ

  • echoCTRL wrote:

    Squirrelloid wrote:

    Darock wrote:

    Are Legionnaires professional soldiers?

    I always thought DE are more early Roman Army Style. So before the Marian Reforms. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_reforms

    That would mean the Legionaries are NOT professional soldiers but some levy troops who have to pay for their own equipment.


    Or did I messed the background up?
    They go to academy and are professionally trained.At least some of their weapons are provided by the state. Their armor might be as well, I can't remember.

    They fight for pay (war booty or otherwise), and at their choosing. They are not levies.

    That's clearly professional soldiers.
    I believe they are trained in making their own equipment.
    I was under the impression their sword was given to them at graduation, and RXBs were supplied to auxiliaries, but I could be mistaken. Regardless, the source of their equipment doesn't actually affect whether or not they're professionals.
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

    Legal

    Playtester

    Chariot Command HQ

  • Common orcs, HA + xbow, give them shields = 4+ last i checked. (With xbows no less).
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

    Legal

    Playtester

    Chariot Command HQ

  • I gotta say that Squirrelloid's presentation is pretty darn conclusive. Of course there is always a little bit of subjective wiggle room but his argument about armour, the tiers of armour, etc... is pretty solid.
    The mandate for "no plate" seems very arbitrary.

    Are there any facts that are being kept hidden that might sway us away from this viewpoint?

    Edit: I honesty don't even find 4+ R3 elves to be that powerful in the current game. AP1 and 2 is quite common so it still renders the armour rather bad. ....I suspect this is why the armies with 4+ also tend to get shields and or special aegis saves to compensate.
    I'd rather just have more bodies and charge into those AP2 enemies.
    Of course, now I'm talking more about power levels rather than the feeling of guidelines..... But if we are to get Elven Body Spam, then it should be Dread Elves that get it over the other elves, as it feels more like a dread elf thing.

    The post was edited 5 times, last by Peacemaker ().

  • Squirrelloid wrote:

    echoCTRL wrote:

    Squirrelloid wrote:

    Darock wrote:

    Are Legionnaires professional soldiers?

    I always thought DE are more early Roman Army Style. So before the Marian Reforms. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_reforms

    That would mean the Legionaries are NOT professional soldiers but some levy troops who have to pay for their own equipment.


    Or did I messed the background up?
    They go to academy and are professionally trained.At least some of their weapons are provided by the state. Their armor might be as well, I can't remember.
    They fight for pay (war booty or otherwise), and at their choosing. They are not levies.

    That's clearly professional soldiers.
    I believe they are trained in making their own equipment.
    I was under the impression their sword was given to them at graduation, and RXBs were supplied to auxiliaries, but I could be mistaken. Regardless, the source of their equipment doesn't actually affect whether or not they're professionals.
    The source of equipment is important. If each Legionaire is expected to craft and maintain their own arms amd armour the quality is limited by the abilities of each individual elf. Compare that to ID where they have a factory process to turn out very high quality armements that are all standardized and made of the same quality.

    Their is greater variation in weapons and armour used by DE as a result. You currently have multiple 4+ AS units in Core and other armies do to but things will change for those armies after they get their LAB. OnG might not have access to heavy armour for anyone but elites. VS could lose its access yo a 4+ AS unit.

    DE are very self assured and could be more concerned with weapons then armour. As a matter of fact they have multiple special weapons available that you keep discounting.

    Good Equipment just isnt the same as having Good Armour. VS are a more technologically advanced army than DE and they have very poor armour overall.

    Repeater Crossbow
    Repeater Handbow
    Kraken Hides
    Assassin Throwing Weapons
    Master Poisons
    Gladiator Weapons
    Executioners Blades
    Harpoon Launcher
    Elven Bolt Thrower

    These are all special equipments that denote Good Equipment.

    DE Legionaires are better than Citizen Spears. DE Legionaires are more likely to kill the Citizen Spear because of Killer Instincts. The name sucks but they dont have different primal instincts but they have been trained to hone their killer instinct.

    The burden of proof is on you and you have not convinced me.

    Army Design Team

  • echoCTRL wrote:

    Squirrelloid wrote:

    echoCTRL wrote:

    Squirrelloid wrote:

    Darock wrote:

    Are Legionnaires professional soldiers?

    I always thought DE are more early Roman Army Style. So before the Marian Reforms. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_reforms

    That would mean the Legionaries are NOT professional soldiers but some levy troops who have to pay for their own equipment.


    Or did I messed the background up?
    They go to academy and are professionally trained.At least some of their weapons are provided by the state. Their armor might be as well, I can't remember.They fight for pay (war booty or otherwise), and at their choosing. They are not levies.

    That's clearly professional soldiers.
    I believe they are trained in making their own equipment.
    I was under the impression their sword was given to them at graduation, and RXBs were supplied to auxiliaries, but I could be mistaken. Regardless, the source of their equipment doesn't actually affect whether or not they're professionals.
    The source of equipment is important. If each Legionaire is expected to craft and maintain their own arms amd armour the quality is limited by the abilities of each individual elf. Compare that to ID where they have a factory process to turn out very high quality armements that are all standardized and made of the same quality.
    Their is greater variation in weapons and armour used by DE as a result. You currently have multiple 4+ AS units in Core and other armies do to but things will change for those armies after they get their LAB. OnG might not have access to heavy armour for anyone but elites. VS could lose its access yo a 4+ AS unit.

    DE are very self assured and could be more concerned with weapons then armour. As a matter of fact they have multiple special weapons available that you keep discounting.

    Good Equipment just isnt the same as having Good Armour. VS are a more technologically advanced army than DE and they have very poor armour overall.

    Repeater Crossbow
    Repeater Handbow
    Kraken Hides
    Assassin Throwing Weapons
    Master Poisons
    Gladiator Weapons
    Executioners Blades
    Harpoon Launcher
    Elven Bolt Thrower

    These are all special equipments that denote Good Equipment.

    DE Legionaires are better than Citizen Spears. DE Legionaires are more likely to kill the Citizen Spear because of Killer Instincts. The name sucks but they dont have different primal instincts but they have been trained to hone their killer instinct.

    The burden of proof is on you and you have not convinced me.
    Several things:

    -DE has one 4+ core infantry unit at present, not multiple. It's the only 4+ infantry option in the book.

    -HA is not skill intensive to make. A maille shirt can be made by untrained labor. (I've literally made maille myself with a 5 minute explanation of how to do it, thick steel wire, a rod, and a cutting tool). Stronger maille can be made by riveting each ring, but that can be taught in probably an hour, and it's merely time intensive (nor was riveting universal historically).

    -DE have armorsmiths and weaponsmiths. I doubt each dread elf makes their own. 'Supply their own' likely means personally owns it, not handmade it themself.

    -I'm still not sure what this has to do with whether or not they're professionals (as historically mercenaries owned their own weapons and were professionals). They effectively get a 'degree' in fighting, and they get paid to fight. What do you imagine defines 'professional'?

    ----

    -Just because its a 'special' option doesn't make it good. You have to actually look at how good it is compared to alternatives in other books or the general book. Consider an army that got a piece of 'special equipment' across the army which reduced the S of the wielder by 1 in close combat. Would that really be 'good equipment' just because its 'special'?

    -To truly show off 'good' equipment, it should be available on common core units. ie, armies with firearms in core have good equipment. Armies with plate in core have good equipment. Having a special weapon on a special unit isn't really 'good equipment' as an army feature. If core equipment is poor or average, it doesn't really matter what the rest of the army has as far as 'army feel' goes.

    -RHBs are not good equipment (and they're doubly bad for the purpose they're used for - naval sidearm, because the crossarm is terrible for something a sailor is carrying around - it'll catch on rigging and makes it hard to carry in the belt). They were a nerf from throwing weapons of all things, and certainly pistols are clearly better. RXBs are worse than regular bows on infantry at least (no volleyfire, worse range). They're worse than regular xbows and firearms. Similarly, RBTs and harpoons are worse than the best artillery options.

    -Krakenhides are almost certainly gone, since corsairs won't have 4+ anymore. Or at the very least they aren't evaluable.

    -I discount character-only things generally for these purposes (so assassin throwing weapons don't really count), but assassin poisons are also not weapons, they're poisons. It strikes me as dubious to interpret 'good equipment' to mean 'access to poison'.

    -Gladiator weapons are show pieces and somewhat improvised weapons, not quality military equipment.

    -The only one of these that can be clearly argued to be 'high quality' is executioner's blade, except the special rule comes up so rarely it might as well be a standard GW. So it's better than a standard GW, but by the barest of margins.

    ---

    -Under current rules, equal numbers of CS and Legionnaires at fieldable numbers (20+, since CS can't be taken in units less than 20) is won by CS. And that's before evaluating the value of Martial Discipline. rr1s to wound < +1 FiER instance. Individual model performance is nonsense - these units don't fight as individual models.
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

    Legal

    Playtester

    Chariot Command HQ

  • I'd like to bring up the fluff agian:
    Elf blood/life is very precious to the Dread Elves. ....so how does this reconcile with sub par protection of light armour of the same quality as goblins, rats, etc...?

    I was happy with dread elves being evil and throwing the plethora of dread elf youth into the grinder to weed out the weak. Or something along those lines. But if you guys want neutral/good elves then I and others need to be sold on this fluff.
  • echoCTRL wrote:

    Somehow I keep being dumb enough to argue with a lawyer. Look I have given you the insight that my experience has provided. It is my opinion but I am reasonably sure that I am not wrong.

    Trying to reason you out of your opinion woukd just be more foolishbess on my part. It just isnt fun talking to you about this anymore.
    Point of Order: Belittling your own argumentative skills will not lead to an appeal.

    The Court finds in favor of the Squirrel.
    The guidelines will have to present alternate reasons to justify no 4+ saves.
  • echoCTRL wrote:

    The source of equipment is important. If each Legionaire is expected to craft and maintain their own arms amd armour the quality is limited by the abilities of each individual elf.
    That, at least is 100% opposite my imagination of an civilized elven society (leave SE out of the game). To be precise one of the key achievement in the process of civilization is the process of specialization and the introduction of craftsmen.
    There is no civilization on earth known where metal work, and especially armor and weapon from metal, was not done be specialized craftsmen (talking about everything beyond iron age).
    Why should one of the finest and most developed races of our world not follow that basic principle of civilization ?
    If this would be true that must be quite well founded in the fluff.

    Personally I imagine hordes of slaves producing weapons and armor en masse - and some highly skilled elven craftsmen do the important and outstanding pieces of work with their experience from centuries.



    echoCTRL wrote:

    Somehow I keep being dumb enough to argue with a lawyer. Look I have given you the insight that my experience has provided. It is my opinion but I am reasonably sure that I am not wrong.

    Trying to reason you out of your opinion woukd just be more foolishbess on my part. It just isnt fun talking to you about this anymore.
    To be honest. The concept of feedback is NOT to argue, but to accept other opinions.
    If you want a thread in which one consistent view is reached you must not call it feedback thread.
    If you do a feedback thread stop arguing over the top.

    The way discussions are going here and in the idea thread is just discourages not hardcore forum users. I really would appreciate if there would be a much more open minded attitude from the people showing the LAB tag.
    If you do not like 9th Age - fine, it is your right to do so. But do not spoil our fun - go and find your game, be it AoS, 5th Edition, Magic or Dublo

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Uthegen ().

  • don’t want to derail this thread but Crossbow orcs are one of the worst units in the book. 20 model minimum that have to deploy 10 wide on 25mm bases to get all their shots, and they can’t move or reform without pretty much sacrificing their shooting for a turn.

    If this unit is being used as an example to say that O&G have good armour then it is a very misleading one.