Dread Elf LAB Brainstorm/Ideas thread.

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  • @Radian what you describe would fit WHFB Dark Elves nor T9A Dread Elves - sure they pillage and take slaves but excessive backstabbing is out of the question since BGT is building a functional society rather than a society based on the rule of cool. Finally DE do nor r*pe well at least not most of the time. Some among them might r*pe another captured elf and a rare few might even do it to other creatures but that would be as if a human raped livestock...

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  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    - Hidden. Implemented well, the opponent can make a good call about where it is - and at a sufficient cost, be technically ahead on the deal, but if they're not carefully running the numbers, they can fear where the Assassin might show up. Mechanics involving hidden information play into "the fear".

    Yes, good suggestion. Maybe this could even be tied directly to discipline in game terms when the hidden things are revealed.
    I guess this is quite well manifest in BH currently: I think ambushers are psychologically more powerful than actually powerful, because one has to worry about where they will arrive and what they might do.
    It would be interesting to see how this might manifest in DE whilst being distinct from BH. Assassins are one way of doing this of course.



    - Calling your shot. I think a debuff applied far enough in advance that the opponent has a full turn to react, anticipate, and then still not escape has a lot of potential for dread.
    Clever. I love this. Perfect. I hope the LAB team read this and think about this.


    - Do just have the troops be afraid. Just having the words 'fear' and 'terror' on people's lips help build atmosphere.
    Yes... but why should dread elves be scary? Are we in danger of fear creep?
    And how does this tie in with those who don't want discipline mechanics? Or the concern that they do essentially nothing against 4+ armies.
    (Just playing devils advocate cos I think these questions should be asked; I am personally pretty agnostic on this)



    To answer some questions (from my POV):

    1) No, no every army should be "scary". Fighting against KoE should feel like Marquis of Queensbury Rules - you might lose (or be at a disadvantage), but it's all very honourable and fair. UD should feel ancient, dusty and old, an eternally repeating pattern that sucks you into it... there are many feelings.
    In-universe scary or scary or the player?
    In universe I agree. For the player, I'm not sure I see why some armies should be scary and others aren't (but see below).




    2) No, Glass Cannons are not scary. It's all over too quickly, from the general's eye view. Fear (in fiction - and games are fiction) needs time to build up. They can feel OP very easily ("how can I deal with that!?!") and Glass Cannons are certainly *tough* to deal with, but ironically they're too good at what they do to really be scary. "Yep, those men are already dead".

    I mean, that's pretty scary from an in-universe POV, but the gameplay patterns aren't scary.
    Hmmm... interesting.

    As a player, I find glass cannons much scarier than a slow death, because I don't have time to react to them: Things can go from "ok" to "pear shaped" much faster.
    I'm not sure what conclusion to draw here: if the answer is that fear/dread is strongly subjective then I'm not sure how far this discussion can be useful. Maybe we just mean different things by "fear" or "scary" though.


    Radian wrote:

    I think Dread elves are for sure glass, but mor like a guns, not cannons. Their dmg is not that great, maybe increasing the dmg output would be more scary? that would be :

    DanT wrote:

    Should they feel like they can't win?
    and we would like to have some mechanics in game- that not only the *player-* but also his *army* should feel scared (excluding *undead*)
    and don't touch this:

    DanT wrote:

    Discipline effects for the opposing army?
    it is unreliable most of the time and for sure not so competetive (it's not competetive to rely on opponen't rolls)

    I don't understand I'm afraid: You want the enemy army to feel scared but don't want it related to discipline effects?
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

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  • 30 dread judges with banner of blood. Witchcraft wizard that can cast ravens wing and the attribute for even more advance move. And twisted effigy to shut down the enemy big unit of shooty guys.

    This is what puts the 'dread' in dread elves. :)

    opponents will be scared little babies until they watch some tactics videos and learn how to counter such a unit. :)
  • Peacemaker wrote:

    30 dread judges with banner of blood. Witchcraft wizard that can cast ravens wing and the attribute for even more advance move. And twisted effigy to shut down the enemy big unit of shooty guys.

    This is what puts the 'dread' in dread elves. :)

    But what is the dread of this unit? Why? Why is it not the same dread as any high agility heavy combat unit?
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
  • I refer to fast, hard hitting army, specially unpredictable. Blessed by the Art of War.

    This is what I refer about dread... nasty units specialist to face diferent foes, fear to face since are not predictable turn by turn because their speed and rage to hit in hth.

    Whit tools to help to select charges and to control the movement phase focus to reach HtH.

    This is the basic of the essence for DE for me. I pray for tools and resources to have a lot of options to play an aggressive and specialist (in different kind of units available) Somehow in WH times, of course not balanced, we had this feeling playing DE.
    I used to be Suddenwind... :)
  • DanT wrote:

    Peacemaker wrote:

    30 dread judges with banner of blood. Witchcraft wizard that can cast ravens wing and the attribute for even more advance move. And twisted effigy to shut down the enemy big unit of shooty guys.

    This is what puts the 'dread' in dread elves. :)

    But what is the dread of this unit? Why? Why is it not the same dread as any high agility heavy combat unit
    If something is dread or not depend on the person. For me teletubbies are the encarnation of dread.


    That is all
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  • DanT wrote:

    - Do just have the troops be afraid. Just having the words 'fear' and 'terror' on people's lips help build atmosphere.

    Yes... but why should dread elves be scary? Are we in danger of fear creep?
    And how does this tie in with those who don't want discipline mechanics? Or the concern that they do essentially nothing against 4+ armies.
    (Just playing devils advocate cos I think these questions should be asked; I am personally pretty agnostic on this)


    From a BG perspective, the Dathen intentionally cultivate a, er, Dread-ed reputation. I'm not necessarily (or at all) advocating for the common Elf to have Fear, but for it be included strategically on models that particularly take steps to strike fear into the hearts of their enemies, and perhaps for some "enhancers" to be present, or variants.

    As for Fear/Terror being largely useless against 4 armies... 4? Who's the fourth? ...well, against three, anyway: that's manageable. Particularly given the flipside of Fearless (no spontaneous retreats).

    But yeah: why should Dread Elves be scary? 'cos it's in the name.

    DanT wrote:


    To answer some questions (from my POV):


    1) No, no every army should be "scary". Fighting against KoE should feel like Marquis of Queensbury Rules - you might lose (or be at a disadvantage), but it's all very honourable and fair. UD should feel ancient, dusty and old, an eternally repeating pattern that sucks you into it... there are many feelings.
    In-universe scary or scary or the player?
    In universe I agree. For the player, I'm not sure I see why some armies should be scary and others aren't (but see below).


    There is a difference between "difficult to beat" and "inspires dread". An army consisting of literally invulnerable models wouldn't be all that dread-inspiring to face (from the General's eye view); you know you're boned. There's nothing to do, no hopes to be dashed... you just bend over and take it as they march forwards.

    I think this is definitely a terminology thing; we talk about "scary lists" when we're not actually *afraid*. What I mean is, you *can* catch a bit of The Fear if you were hoping to win and suddenly an iceberg approaches your chances, but emotional reactions are fairly illogical things (kinda by definition).

    Every army should be able to produce that "well, I'm in for a rough round this round" moments when you see the pairings. That doesn't mean that every army should be mucking about with player's primitive monkey brain fight or flight reflexes. (Yes, it's objectively silly to have that tripped by some tin soldiers. It's also silly to get scared in horror movies. Humans aren't terribly well designed, and a little harmless fear can make for an enjoyable experience - there's a reason we build and ride rollercoasters. :) )

    DanT wrote:


    2) No, Glass Cannons are not scary. It's all over too quickly, from the general's eye view. Fear (in fiction - and games are fiction) needs time to build up. They can feel OP very easily ("how can I deal with that!?!") and Glass Cannons are certainly *tough* to deal with, but ironically they're too good at what they do to really be scary. "Yep, those men are already dead".

    I mean, that's pretty scary from an in-universe POV, but the gameplay patterns aren't scary.


    Hmmm... interesting.



    As a player, I find glass cannons much scarier than a slow death, because I don't have time to react to them: Things can go from "ok" to "pear shaped" [i]much
    faster.
    I'm not sure what conclusion to draw here: if the answer is that fear/dread is strongly subjective then I'm not sure how far this discussion can be useful. Maybe we just mean different things by "fear" or "scary" though.[/i]

    Well, yes, it IS subjective - any given scare will leave someone unfazed. In this specific case, I'd suspect it's a case of the level at which you engage with the game. Because you, DanT, consider all the angles, the potential devastation those glass cannon troops can cause echoes through your brain and creates some degree of dread (or not, I'm not psychic :) ).

    Anticipation is a key to dread, after all.

    But someone engaging with it on a less complicated level isn't going to feel that.

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  • I think that is the problem. The people remeber an army called dark elves in a different system. In this system, the 6th edition armybook was crap, and the players who played it imagined themselves as being really good players for still (sometimes?) winning with it.
    Then, there were the armybooks of the 7th and 8th edition, were the dark elve books where all but weak, instead they were insanly over the top. But this, yes this is what some (or most?) are asking for when they want the "dread" back in their elves. (but still have on their minds that it is a hard to play book and therefore not for beginners...)

    Honestly I don't know right now what would put the "dread" (I think am not really sure what that even would mean to me) back into the dread elves. Right now I think we should wait on what the LAB team will bring in the first snips. Right now I just don't know if the academy (whatever it might bring) road feels right for me - but then, I have different armies and I am still eager to see the concept behind the dread - and not the dark elves.

    Probably a long text for saying not really a lot...sorry. :D
  • Isn't it up to the background to define what makes a whole nation dreadful for humans?? (assuming the name is like everything else what humans call b this particular elven race/nation)

    In game rules could be derived from that.

    To me making opponent to roll minimised rolls for flee, feigned flight, break rolls is a sign of dread. (once they get their sight on you dread elves will catch you)

    Similarly maximised ld rolls causing so much fear that opponents struggle to maintain discipline.

    Above two would also support glass cannon mmu/Msu army. They'll hit hard if win 1st round, then force you to break (max roll) and if you break they have a good chance to catch you (min roll).

    Add an artefact or two to reduce opponent ld or negate rally around flag/inspiring presence then DE becomes a really dreadful enemy with whom you don't want to engage in cc.

    To me piracy, slavery etc aren't necessarily sign of dread (obviously not taking real life here :P ) as it could be perfectly normal for elves to participate in such activities...

    Hatered is another rule but I guess awsr will take care of such thing.
  • Please do remember that Dread, Highborn Sylvan are aproximative translations from elven name into one of the human languages and then into English.

    The actions of the Dread Elves cause others to dread the actions rather than the creatures themselves (in most cases). An Equitan Duke will dread a DE slaving raid stealing his peasant and runing his harvest but he himseof will not dread the elves themselves when facing them on the field of battle.

    LAB TT will explore conceptual avenues to bring this dreaded reputation to the battlefield in some way mechanically but based on the source of the dread I guess it is not likely it will anything as simple as units gaining access to Fear/Terror. :)

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  • Giladis wrote:

    from elven name into one of the human languages and then into English.

    The actions of the Dread Elves cause others to dread the actions rather than the creatures themselves (in most cases).
    Note to self: create Auxillary Army Book "Scared Elves".
    A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

    MAKE THE SWARM COWARDLY AGAIN!
    WE DEMAND TERRIBLE LEADERSHIP!
    DOWN WITH COMPETENT GENERALS!
  • Eldan wrote:

    Giladis wrote:

    from elven name into one of the human languages and then into English.

    The actions of the Dread Elves cause others to dread the actions rather than the creatures themselves (in most cases).
    Note to self: create Auxillary Army Book "Scared Elves".
    you mean SE 8o
  • Zyv wrote:

    Right now I just don't know if the academy (whatever it might bring) road feels right for me
    THAT'S exacly what I'm talking about
    If you want make academy roman style militarized faction, rename it to BLACK(?) ELVES not DREAD ELVES

    But if you want to Dread Elves feel Dread again (I didnt play WFB so idk about DE's being op or what, I don't even know much of the fluff) as I referred (in *almost* all fantasy systems *dark-ish* type of elves are like I wrote few posts before- rapeing, slaveing and such) their style with a name DREAD.
    In game you should feel really unconfortable playing DE's- When we move, we move fast (mobile), and you can only predict our future movements and try to counter it, when we do magic, you'll bleed (offensive magic), when we shoot, you'll loose guys(**), and when we fight, we might die, but you'll cry(***)

    That's my vision and probably "+-" vision of most of the DE players. Academy isn't really fitting as much for them.



    ** -
    Display Spoiler
    (loosing 3 or 4 footmen from a 20 man crossbow unit is a pathetic(mathhammering Repeater Auxiliaries dmg output), they should kill, maybe not overpoverly (defensive factor for opponent could be like: loosing 10-15 footmen without cover (maybe up to 10 on long range) UNLESS in a cover, reducing opponent's looses to 3-4, that would be dreadeed (when talking about heavy calvary it should be ~5 wounds in open, ~3-4 on long range and around 2 in covers)


    *** -
    Display Spoiler
    like I said before, more glass cannon than actual glass gun or even glass knife we have atm
  • Sounds for me less like dread and more like super strong (and super expensive).


    I must say I don´t think dread elves should put dread in a Choosen or a WDG Warrior. Neither in a Saurian. Yes they should bring dread to their family... their friends. People at home but on the battlefield? To be true... in a fantasy army, if I have to fight against Undeads, Dragons and Deamons I´m not sure how much I can get freaked out by some evil elves. Getting captured and tortured is something different, but running away in fear after standing my ground against the others things... I really don´t know.


    Don´t get me wrong, I can totally understand the will to give that feeling to the enemy... I´m sure there are lots of armies who want to do the same.
    I think that should be something for the background.

    And one other think... do you really want the opponent to fear your army? Means they don´t want to play against it? Means... everybody plays it ´cause then they can do it too or nobody plays against you anymore because they don´t like it / have fun.
  • on a more serious not than my last posts:
    The Dread part I feel is more about the DE using underhanded tactics to disrupt the enemy. Why should a DE win honorably? (maybe a few exceptions).
    So this can be reflected mostly through the Hex/debuff theme in the army, the assassin, beast capturer debuffs. Corsairs are capturers so I'm in favor of a simple -1 to enemy flee rolls if in base contact. Its not OP, rarely going to do much, but its flavorful.

    I think a smidge of leadership debuff could be added such as with Evocation.
  • Radian wrote:

    Zyv wrote:

    Right now I just don't know if the academy (whatever it might bring) road feels right for me
    THAT'S exacly what I'm talking aboutIf you want make academy roman style militarized faction, rename it to BLACK(?) ELVES not DREAD ELVES

    But if you want to Dread Elves feel Dread again (I didnt play WFB so idk about DE's being op or what, I don't even know much of the fluff) as I referred (in *almost* all fantasy systems *dark-ish* type of elves are like I wrote few posts before- rapeing, slaveing and such) their style with a name DREAD.
    In game you should feel really unconfortable playing DE's- When we move, we move fast (mobile), and you can only predict our future movements and try to counter it, when we do magic, you'll bleed (offensive magic), when we shoot, you'll loose guys(**), and when we fight, we might die, but you'll cry(***)

    That's my vision and probably "+-" vision of most of the DE players. Academy isn't really fitting as much for them.
    Just keep in mind that the Daebs or citizens of the Dathen don't call themselves "Dread" , other (human) races call them that:

    Background wrote:


    Dread Elves
    are a harsher reflection of their brethren. Thesame grace, the same
    beauty, the same talent, yet the detachment of the Highborn turns to
    disdain, the caprice of the Sylvan turned to cruelty. Their skills as
    pirates and reavers are unparalleled; entire coastal communities have
    fallen to cruel blade and ingenious artillery. The survivors soon find
    themselves aboard slave galleys and sold to worse fate still.
    Their society was forged by war, and shaped further still by an unending
    feud with their Highborn cousins, a conflict which began with the
    separation of the Elves thousands of years ago, and shows no sign of
    ending. Even the gods of the Elves, the holy trinities, have taken on a
    darker note – blood rituals are widely described by rescued captives of
    the Dread fleets. Whatever the causes of that conflict, its echoes
    linger, and with the longevity of Elves, perhaps there are still those
    who recall the events and maintain ancient enmities.

    They are feared because of stories and rumors told by those who managed to escape, not necessarily because they would be fearsome or scary in and by themselves.
    At worst, in terms of rules, their opponents would rather get killed than caught
  • Peacemaker wrote:

    on a more serious not than my last posts:
    The Dread part I feel is more about the DE using underhanded tactics to disrupt the enemy. Why should a DE win honorably? (maybe a few exceptions).
    So this can be reflected mostly through the Hex/debuff theme in the army, the assassin, beast capturer debuffs. Corsairs are capturers so I'm in favor of a simple -1 to enemy flee rolls if in base contact.
    I like that road of thoughts. Adding to this how current ETC feels like really focus on monster/MW it could be a nice tough to take away the reliability of monsters by field beast masters. E.g. go forward with the concept of the beast masters lash.
    • Either give BM some hereditary/skill to control/pause an enemy monster for a turn. That would also to some degree support R&F play.
    • Or give BM a skill to make MW models not creating stomps in 12''
    (Capture an enemy monster would be cool and thematic but a bit OP :girlbully: )
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  • Hello,

    Just wanted to make sure you are aware of this wonderful Homebrew Dread Elf book,

    New Homebrew DE variant, based on Zanzibar slave market and Big 5 Safaris

    Dread Traffickers of Maphria Island


    Dread Traffickers of Maphria island, based on Zanzibar, an army of dread elf « safari » specialists, riding on giant predatory ostriches but also flying fish and accompanied by naga allies (yeah, it's a pretext to play with the Idoneth and Khaine Daughters GW models ;) )


    Not saying this should make into the army list, but could be worth mentioning when you get to the point of writing a story where Dread Elf meet Vanhu Kingdom, for example ;)
    GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
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