LAB probosal for T9A Dread Elf faction.

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    • LAB probosal for T9A Dread Elf faction.

      LAB probosal for T9A Dread Elf faction.
      By Kyle Balombin
      Forum name: Peacemaker

      Here is the word document link:
      dropbox.com/s/9t9naxewy47cl0c/…0LAB%20proposal.docx?dl=0

      Preamble
      I did my best to follow the guidelines set out in the thread as well as listen to feedback from players in that thread. I would have made a homebrew a long time ago but it s alot easier to make it when some guidelines are set out. Otherwise one can go in all sorts of tangent directions.

      A note about how I approach designing armybooks. I design the army and it’s special rules first, then tweak stats, then anything else that needs looking at. THEN at the end I look at echantments. I feel the enchantments are not the foremost defining feature of an army and should rarely be fixed. Rules wise they are extremely tweakable. So I just don’t spend that much time considering them when trying to get a proper foundation for the units and the army as a whole.
      You can technically take an entire army without any magic items. And the goal of army design is that the army still FEELS like it should.

      So for readers that love enchantments, there isn’t much in here about enchantments.

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      Special rule:
      Academy: Infantry units in close combat that have at least 1 full rank and are within 6” of another academy unit with at least 1 full rank, count as having an additional rank for close combat purposes to a max of +3.
      Units with Academy: Prince, Captain, Legionaries, Repeater Auxiliaries, TowerGuard, Dark Raider(knights variant). Raptor Chariots? Dread Knights? Bolt Thrower?
      So what this does is really encourage the MSU tactics. You can send your 10man unit into combat and you can put 1- 3 other small units within 6” and then the 10man unit counts as having 1-3 extra ranks. It gives the MSU army some staying power but no extra bodies, not extra attacks, the eleven unit is still very fragile. Also makes better use of the Legion banner as you don’t’ need a huge mob to get that extra rank bonus.
      I’m a big fan of this rule. It might be too powerful with flank charges count the units as more ranks but guidelines said semi-powerful buff that encourages tactics and units working together.
      Note that only infantry get the rank bonus’s while cavalry and mounted characters can contribute to the bonus but do not receive it. I only included raptor chariots, dread knights, bolt thrower because the guidelines said that units should fit into the 3 themes and these seemed the most Roman themed.

      Extra Academy rule I’m considering
      Academy units also get +1 combat res if at least 1 academy unit is engaged in the same combat.
      I’m concerned that after casualties start mounting that the academy bonus stops functioning so maybe this rule can help. Or maybe this becomes the new academy banner?
      Every academy banner in combat adds +1 combat res for other academy banners in same combat?


      Prince or Captain are automatically part of Academy(no options for cults) and confers minimized Discipline to any unit it joins.
      Guidelines said to give top tier leadership to the army.

      More on Academy units farther below

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      Cultists: Units with this ability must chose one of the following upgrades:
      Nabh: The model gains Hatred
      Yema: The model gains Strider, +1” Advance and +2 March Rate(This also affects mounts)
      Cadaron: + 1 to Fluff
      Olaraon: +1 to Lore
      Units with Cultists: Blades, Dancers, Judges, Dark Acolytes, Medusa, DIvine Altar, Cult Priest, Oracle.
      Units’ with Cultists don’t have killer instinct.
      Mechanically the Cults function similar the Daemonlic Legion Manifestations. A unit that is part of cults gets to pick their fluffy upgrade. And this way, the preist and oracle are less restricted in the units they can join because the player decides that with list generation.
      I know the guidelines wanted restricted but we got 5 pages of people saying “no-mono janky/restrictions stuff, leave it for the Auxillia books”.


      Cult Priest joined to any unit gains Death Trance and Frenzy.
      Cult priest should get access to a horse.
      No cult rivalries so the Priest can join other cult units even though the buffs don’t match.
      Keep in mind that the feedback was for non-restrictive. This buff is in line with making the cult part more about first turn damage while the academy units are about sustained damage(killer instinct). But it leaves things open for players to do as they like while still providing incentive to put the cult priest in the cultist units.
      The cult priest merely confers Frenzy to a unit which means it can still flee which is important for MSU tactics on fragile units
      The death trance is in line with making the units be more first round damage instead of grindy like Academy units.

      Divine Altar:
      Gains Fearless and Frenzy and confers this to any unit it joins.
      Rest of the rules stay the same - It’s a good design. But now we get a bit of a drawback with frearless and frenzy. It’s in line with the guidelines to incentive getting into close and less avoidance.
      Fearless means the unit can’t flee, so it’s tanky stats are ok. . ….I could be wrong and maybe the bonus of Death Trance is good enough to also give fearless and decrease the avoidance style of play.

      I lack a bit of experience with the Fearless Frenzy mechanics. Frenzy is obviously a drawback. But I also view Fearless as both a positive/negative buff. Not being able to flee is big drawback for fragile elf units. I need feedback on this.
      So I suggest removing it from Blades of Nahb as they are a core unit and shouldn’t have that kind of ability.

      Dancers of Yema:
      No changes. Scrap the Skirmish option.
      We need a decent anvil unit with their 4+ aegis in close. I’m reluctant to force people to use massed academy spears for their anvil unit. It’s too restrictive and the Academy is just one theme of the book.
      The skirmish upgrade can probably be scrapped. It doesn’t really serve a purpose and is against guidelines anyway.

      Dark Acolytes:
      Since they got options for all cults their spells will have to be looked at.

      Medusa
      Change to Large size, reduce to 4 attacks.
      1-3 models in a unit.
      Can take Halberd, Paired Weapon, Repeater crossbow.
      Petrified Stare loses it’s rank thing as that is an Academy bonus now.
      I’m happy with Deceptive Glamour spell but it could be chagned.
      Guidelines and fluff say it’s a sentient supernal being so it can’t go to the beastmaster catagory.

      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


      BeastMaster:
      Get’s it’s own unit entry.
      Discipline Tests of all friendly Hydra, Kraken, Harpy, Raptors, within 12" of one or more Characters with BeastMaster are subject to Minimised Roll.
      At the start of each Melee Phase, choose one friendly Hydra, Kraken, or Manticore(theriderisnotaffected), Harpy, Raptors, within 12"of the Beast Master . This model part must reroll failed to-hit rolls of 1 with its Close Combat Attacks during this phase. If the unit contains a Beast Handler then it must re-roll all to hit rolls with it’s close combat attacks.
      This just expands on the beastmaster theme and the leadership theme of the guidelines.
      Beastmaster is no longer an upgrade to Prince/Captains. It’s its own entry now so it can be more customizable for stats and mounts and any other unique options people want.

      Beast Handler(controller)
      A unit with this rule increases the range to Beastmaster rule by 6”. And must re-roll to hit rolls of 1 with it Close Combat Attacks.
      This is an upgrade for beast type units.

      Beast Hunter(Captuerer)
      Any unit that has Towering Presense, Large, or Beasts lost 1 or more wounds from a Beast Hunters unit, it suffers -2 advance, -4 march, and loses fly. Until the end of the next player turn.
      Hunting Chariot:
      Harpoon Launcher changed to 2 shots, always wound on a 4+. No multiwound.
      Gain Beast Hunters special rule.
      Harpooned rule scrapped.
      Making it 2 shots reduces variance and lets the hunting chariot be a bit more versatile. THe debuff has been expanded to a few more units to make it more usefull. It could be toned down as it synergizes very well with witchcraft attribute spell.

      Dark Riders/knights:
      They get a split profile just like the Sylvan Elf Heath Hunters/Riders
      The light cav version must take reapeater crossbows and gets the Beast Hunters special rule. No shields.
      The non-light cav version(knights) is part of Academy. Gain Shield. Gains devastating charge +1 Strength, +1 AP. Does not get feigned flight, light troops, vanguard.
      Gives a core option for Beasts theme. Provides more core options for the Academy theme. Reduces Avoidance/shooting by providing a medium cav option for combat in core.

      Harpies
      Strenght 4, AP1 140pts?
      Champion upgrade who gains the Beast Handler rule and +1 wound.
      This is keeping in line with the guidelines. The harpies can still be chaff but have another roll. The Champion upgrade works kinda like a wizard conclave. And this is keeping in line with the trend to give armies some kind of cool champion type rules.
      This also lets people take some cool champion type harpy models. It doesn’t have to be an elf with a whip.

      Raptors
      The raptor profile, Discipline 6. Insignificant.
      Unit of 5-20models. Special Catagory. I
      If General of Army is a Beast master then unit s of 10+ models counts towards core.
      Champion upgrades to beast handler.
      I saw this idea requested. So I kinda just borrowed the rules from beastherds hounds.
      Provides a weak core option for beast theme army.

      Manticore mount
      Loses Towering Presense. Base size reduced to 50x50.
      OPtion to upgrade to a 50x100 and gain Towering Presesne and +1 wound.
      Gains Poison attacks. Scrap Death Trance as that is more a cult thing.
      This is a massively requested feature and the reasons for not doing it due to ‘legacy’ are actually wrong as most people did not convert the chaos manticore model, most people had the old 50x50 one. And other manufacturers manticore models do fit on a 50x50 base.

      Kraken & Hydra
      Can upgrade to gain a Beast Handler.
      I don’t have to many ideas for these units.
      Everyone kinda wants them to be cheaper

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      Midnight Armour: Functions as Heavy Armour. Enemy’s targeting a unit with more than half it’s models with midnight armour have their range reduced by 6” for magic and shooting to a minimum of 6”.
      Basically this helps dread knights and character on mounts. Another option was midnight armour giving hard target at some kind of short range. But I felt that was too situational, didn’t help against magic, and is annoying for opponents who pay lots of points for their ranged weapons where the aim roll is a big point of contention - everyone hates hitting on 6’s with their expensive ranged weapons. This allows opponents to still hit with their shooting, but it forces them to play the movement game instead of castle.


      Elven Light Armour: Functions as Light Armour. Gains Piercing Resist(1). Cannot be enchanted.
      Elven Heavy Armour: Functions as Light Armour. Gains Piercing Resist(1). Cannot be enchanted.
      This helps cover the equipment guidelines. The piercing resist had a problem with units getting a 1+ save when they really shouldn’t be, which was kinda OP on characters. With Kraken hide no longer giving armour, this armour not being allowed to be enchanted, and Dread Knights getting midnight armour - I think it solves all the problems.
      Characters have this as an upgrade so they can still take mundane light/heavy armour and get enchantments.

      Elven Hand Weapon: Functions as Hand Weapon. Gains +1 AP. (basically a gladius for the legions).
      Basically I just copied the Sylvan elves and added the handweapon.
      I really like the eleven melee weapons but there are some balance issues that need to be reworked as it scale creeps AP in the whole game. Sylvan Elves gets AP because they don’t’ have bolt throwers and they don’t have much magic missiles.
      We currently have access to that academy banner that gives 1st round AP plus more AP for extra which is just AP overkill because it’s 60pts for the banner, plus another 20pts to take a basic banner on an MSU unit. So that’s 160pts for a couple of core units to get +2AP in first round? ….might as well just take dread judges. And the new guidelines do say to make the Academy units a bit more grindy and less first round stuff. And when you think about it, everyone just takes spears anyway. So they already get AP1, PLUS the spear bonus!
      From a design perspective I think simply an Elven Hand weapon with +1 AP suits the guidelines well enough.

      Repeater Crossbow is reduced to Range 18”, gains quick to fire.
      Short mobile shooting is what the guidelines say.

      The equipment changes help alot with the academy units.

      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Legionaries
      Academy Unit.
      Gain Gladius(elven hand weapon). May upgrade to spear.
      It gives sword and board Legionaries a great reason to exist as 15man MSU units. Spears are obviously 15man and get the extra bonus, but with spears you really want to add another rank up to 20 or casualties start reducing that rank bonus pretty quick.
      Repeater Auxiliaries.
      Academy Unit
      Gain Gladius(elven hand weapon). Get the new Repeater crossbow.
      I feel this should be enough to entice players to send them into combat. If not then we adding a special rule might be ok.
      Dark Raiders become medium as discused in the beastmasters section.

      Dread Knights
      Academy Unit
      Gain midnight armour.
      Solves the issue with them getting a 1+ armour from the piercing resist.

      Raptor Chariot
      Academy Unit
      Maybe this unit counts as having 1 full rank if at full health so it contributes to Academy rule?

      Tower Guard
      Academy Unit
      No changes.

      Bolt Thrower
      Academy Unit
      Reduced to Range 36”. Loses Move or Fire.
      It still suffers a -1 to hit for moving and shooting. This discourages running away from enemy warmachine hunters but allows the bolt thrower to stay in range of other academy units to give the rank buffs.
      This nerf is a difficult one. It might have to gain +1 to hit at short range compensate because moving at Standard height, Line of Sight gets greatly reduced.
      I do believe with the other changes I added such as the piercing resist, midnight armour, Kraken Hide, that although minor, is just enough to be able to fight against the heavy ranged armies with cheap chaff.

      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Corsair Theme:
      Captain and Prince upgrade.
      0-1 choice per army: The model gains Kraken’s Hide. A single unit of Corsairs may be upgraded with Vanguard. Cannot select Raptor Chariot, Manticore, or Dragon as a mount.
      Kraken’s Hide: The model gains Distracting and Hard Target(1). Can only wear light armour or elven light armour.
      This is a unique take on the pirates theme. The 0-1 limit and no heavy armour is actually more of a fluff rule(which happens to coincide with power restrictions as well). Corsairs are pirate and so only join the main army in small contingents. Having more than 1 captain would constitute a corsair fleet coming together and that is what the Auxiliary book will cover.
      Distracting and hard target sound powerful. But lots of other armies characters have access to similar abilities, and it can’t take much armour.
      Could restrict this profession to only Captains. But that will affect the power level of cowboys. That's up to the balance team how far they want to go fluff wise with this. I’m not a cowboy expert.


      Corsairs:
      Remain in Core. Lose scoring. Count towards Raiders. 0-2 units per army. 10-20models per unit.
      Can only be joined by Corsair Captain or Assassin with Path of the Pirate.
      Gain +1 AP on profile.
      Get Kraken’s Hide. And March and shoot.
      Auto-include Paired Weapons and Throwing Weapons.
      I decided to give them throwing weapons to reduce the range from 12” to 8” so they don’t compete with Repeater Auxillaries. Distracting and Hard Target is good but they only got light armour and they don’t’ have the unit synergies.


      Raven Cloaks - part of the pirates theme.
      Gain AP 1 in their profile. Auto-include paired weapons.
      This makes them a bit more expensive but encourages close combat. Fits their theme of pirates/assassin types. Follows the guideline of less emphasis on avoidance and encourage more close without being too restrictive.
      The loss of Cadaron +1 to hit at close is made up for by the quick to fire in the crossbow.

      Assassin
      Cults are out.
      Agent of Obsidian throne not needed.
      Gains 4+ Aegis agaisnt melee.
      Path of Bloody Murder - nabh replaced with hatred.
      Path of Silent Death - Loses Cadaron.
      Master Poison can stay the same.
      I included the 4+ in base stats to encourage close combat instead of sitting back and shooting.
      Design wise we could give distracting instead and the 4+ aegis still be part of bloody murder.
      There are lots of little tweaks that could be done to assassins.
    • Did some testing. The Academy rules is good but it doesn't feel right when opponent gets a flank or rear charge and the unit still have 1-3 extra ranks bonus.
      Will probably make exception that it only works when the unit is not engaged in flank or rear.

      ------------------------

      I was thinking about the Cult Priest and how we don't want it joining squads to be restrictive.
      So instead of the Priest selecting which cult it is part of on it's unit entry. It gains the cult type from the unit it has joined.
      This way it lets the player put the priest where it is needed. It gives incentive to place inside a cult unit, but can still join an academy unit.

      -----------------------

      Thought of a new fluff rule for assassin.
      It isn't a leader and it's fluff is that he kinda hides in units. So he should have a rule that he can't be 'focused' sniped when in a unit with at least 5 rank and file models.
      It also helps give the army small bit of protection against ranged. Which is after all what Dread elves needs - tiny bits of ranged defenses.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Peacemaker ().

    • Some notes: 2+ armour save with -1 AP reduction is equivalent with 1+ armour save, unless beeing targeted with word of iron, in which case you have armour equivalent to 7 (0+ save). I don't think that is in line with no 1+AS regulation (which I think is a good regulation).

      Personally I don't think there should be much ap reduction or increase (as hand weapon with ap 1), it just creates an arms race, which I think should be avoided at all cost.

      Maybe that will be the case with range reduction on spells and shooting also. Reducing range means some other fraction will be unsatisfied and then that fraction might get increased range, and the arms race has started. Thia reduction is also strange as the army should play close quarters in which case reduction doesn't make a difference. I think it will more premote avoidance than close quarter as spells now have very limited range (most often around 24 or less).

      I also think the harpoon is too unbalanced when targeting large and beasts as litterally the whole OK and DL books are affected by the -2/-4 debuff whilst only very specific elements in other armies are
    • Moment wrote:

      Personally I don't think there should be much ap reduction or increase (as hand weapon with ap 1), it just creates an arms race, which I think should be avoided at all cost.
      I agree about AP creep having to be watched out for.
      In the guidelines it says this:


      Shooting for this army should have the following themes clearly represented;
      • short ranged,
      • maneuverable,
      • high volume of mediocre* shots, and
      • units can enter combats


      The units gotta be able to enter combat. And there is no way around this except giving them some combat buffs. And the guidelines state that perhaps access to melee weapons should be considered, and people do agree.
      People did suggest paired weapons, but I feel that great conflicts with Blades of Nabh and Corsairs.
      People suggested spears....but we already got a spear unit on Legionaires. And spears do FIER which is kinda pointless an a repeater Auxillary unit that is people are only going to put in 2 ranks.

      Here is the biggest point:
      Core Legionaires already have spears. They are already AP 1. No one takes the sword and board guys. And Auxlliaries aren't taken either. So in this context there is no AP creep because no one takes the 0ap option.
      Note that the Gladius AP 1 hand weapon is a special weapons designed for academy units in the fluff. So this means only certain units get it which are the Legionaires and the Repeater Auxilaries. Perhaps when fine tuning begins other academy units can have access to it but that is a balance thing. Raptor Chariot, dread knights seems a bit like AP creep. On characters it might be OK but balancing characters is whole process.

      Overall this did get me thinking about the AP I put on the Corsairs and the Raven Cloaks. This is totally AP creep. I did solely to make them more attractive to close combat. But I've been thiniking about their role, and with AP 1 their combat role kinda overlaps with the legionaires which is not preferable.
      So instead of AP on corsairs and Raven cloaks. I think strength 4 should be enough.
      The ripple effect of this is that these 2 units are still decent in combat, put the player just has to pick targets more appropriately - which is also in the guidelines.
      This also makes the corsairs thrown weapon a bit reduced which is preferable.
      It does role overlap a bit more with Blades of nabh since their whole thing is 3 attacks with poison and no AP. But since they get access to any cult buff for more customization, ...and 3 attacks at strength 3 poison with option for hatred is much better than 2 attack strength 4.
      Corsairs are obviously more tanky with hard target and distracting but with Blades of Nabh losing fearless it alows them to flee unfavorable charges. I play with Blades of Nabh all the time and that fearless is their number 1 drawback on such a fragile unit.





      Moment wrote:

      Some notes: 2+ armour save with -1 AP reduction is equivalent with 1+ armour save, unless beeing targeted with word of iron, in which case you have armour equivalent to 7 (0+ save). I don't think that is in line with no 1+AS regulation (which I think is a good regulation).
      From the guidelines:
      Although the troops are elite and generally well equipped for their
      respective troop type, armour is often not a major defensive tool for
      non-mounted troops. Armour should be average or below average, no where
      near top5, but also not bottom5 in the game. Avoid enabling the
      following:
      - Good armour in core (e.g. 4+ infantry, 2+ save cavaly)
      - Very easy access to 1+ save on characters
      - Close to whole armies with 2+ save

      So midnight armour in on the dread knights, and this does NOT have Piercing Resist(1). So they are still at at 2+ armour save.
      I'm interpreting the "very easy access to 1+ save characters" as removing the foot version of 1+ save characters. The kraken claok no longer gives +2 armour so you can't get mundane 1+ save for characters on foot.
      They can't an restriction on a mounted character not getting 1+ save because a raptor gives +2 armour as their thing. It's like a barded mount. So you can 2+ and piercing resist(1). Without elven armour you can still get +1 very easily through several cheap magic items. Also the elven armour counts as enchanted. I think it's perfectly acceptable for exception to be made for a character on raptor mount. He's a heavy knight, he's hero and he can get 1+ through enchantments with or without elven armour.

      But I did forget to look at the Elven Horse and the Raptor Chariot mount.
      I think with all these changes that the Evlen horse should be changed to giving only +1 armour. If mounted by a beastmaster it gainst light troops. So it lets beastmaster run around with the Dark Rider hunters.
      This reduction in Armour is in line with giving the Cult priest a mount.

      The Raptor Chariot needs to be reduced to only giving +1 armour as well. So character gets a 3+ mundane with piercing resist 1.
      For the solo raptor chariot entry, the Armour in profile can be reduced to 1 as well and just give the crew a shield.


      Moment wrote:

      Maybe that will be the case with range reduction on spells and shooting also. Reducing range means some other fraction will be unsatisfied and then that fraction might get increased range, and the arms race has started. Thia reduction is also strange as the army should play close quarters in which case reduction doesn't make a difference. I think it will more premote avoidance than close quarter as spells now have very limited range (most often around 24 or less).
      Are you referring to the midnight Armour?
      The min range for the reduction can certainly be played with. Maybe it should be a min range 18" so that there is no DE avoidance sitting back and shooting repeater crossbow from a character mount.
      Otherwise I don't see any issue for a Prince/Captain to sit back and corner when opponetns bring a castle list. In That scenario the DE player isn't playing an "avoidance style list", they are simple going for a draw. ...most castle lists have learned by now that if thye bring tons of ranged it ends up in a draw so those players have learned to bring more mobile option and get into combat. This is the nubmer 1 reason why dwarves are number 1 army in special deployment.

      Keep in mind the Midnight armour is heavy armour. So it literally only goes on the dread knights. And on the Prince/Captain. It might be able to go on the beastmaster depending on what his stats/options are.
      Since it is armour, I don't think it works on gigantic so the Dragon so that's fine.
      And on the mounts, The characters don't' have super ranged abilities so if they want to earn points they gotta get into combat. And since the midnight armour counts as enchanted, the character on mounts are capped at 3+ without Piercing resist(1), Which is pretty fragile.
      Range 30 bow shots with 0 AP get reduced to 24" which is still pretty darn good. And the DE character is rolling 3+ armour.
      Seems balanced.

      I don't see incentive for DE players to be avoiding. If I'm wrong then please explain as best as you can.
      Note: I just don't see where this 'short ranged' magic defense in order to prevent Dread Elves from avoidance style is coming from. Some people will find any way to play avoidance no matter what. But if the army is designed properly then those lists can't never get a big win. They are lucky to get a 13-7 if they were able to snag the objective. Reducing the ranged xbows to 18" and the bolt thrower to 36 is a HUGE drawback that already stifles avoidance play. 18" is charge range for most armies. Except dwarves who have a ton of special deployment and lots of range 30 xbows to compensate.

      If that alchemy wizard wants to Melt the dread Knights then that wizard has to move up.


      Moment wrote:

      I also think the harpoon is too unbalanced when targeting large and beasts as litterally the whole OK and DL books are affected by the -2/-4 debuff whilst only very specific elements in other armies are
      I agree, I kinda just copy pasted the old rule and let it affect more stuff.
      Combined with witchraft this is super OP. lol.
      Should be reduced to -1/-2 and have it only affect Beasts or units with towering presence. Or if people got better ideas we can use those.


      Thanks for the awsome feedback. :)

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Peacemaker ().

    • Peacemaker wrote:

      Moment wrote:

      Personally I don't think there should be much ap reduction or increase (as hand weapon with ap 1), it just creates an arms race, which I think should be avoided at all cost.
      I agree about AP creep having to be watched out for.In the guidelines it says this:

      Shooting for this army should have the following themes clearly represented;
      • short ranged,
      • maneuverable,
      • high volume of mediocre* shots, and
      • units can enter combats

      The units gotta be able to enter combat. And there is no way around this except giving them some combat buffs.
      Disagree, there is a way around:
      Use shooting to enter combat.

      With some creativity, DE shooting weapons can be optimized for combat rather than range or power:
      Allow them to shoot once more during the first round of combat or shortly before.

      Could be a combination of:
      - May always stand and shoot.
      - When they roll to charge, they shoot once at their target before moving. Be it for failed charge or successful charge. (May be limited to shooting at unengaged units - no panick caused).
      - May shoot once at Ag 10 at first round of combat, targeting the unit engaged in contact.

      As a result, DE shooting units would be encouraged to seek melee.
      As wished.

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      - druchii.net contribution: The 9th Age - Dread Elves
    • Calisson wrote:

      - May always stand and shoot.
      This is Ok. Feels more like a dwarf thing but still generic enough. Kinda encourages the DE to stand at 18" and wait to be charged doesn't it? I guess that's ok because it gives incentive to at least get close and still be able to shoot the weapon more than once per game.
      I like it.

      Calisson wrote:

      - When they roll to charge, they shoot once at their target before moving. Be it for failed charge or successful charge. (May be limited to shooting at unengaged units - no panick caused).
      - May shoot once at Ag 10 at first round of combat, targeting the unit engaged in contact.

      I was on board with some special rules like this when were all brianstorming. But the more I thought about it and started to design this proposal I came to the following issues:
      1) it just seemed like the fire on impact from Empire. And the dread Elf repeater xbow just doesn't feel like it has that kind of impact of a gunpowder weapon. You know what I mean? This isn't too big a deal on it's own, it's a minor factor which can be overlooked.

      2) This goes directly against the guidelines for academy core units to be more grindy and less 1st round burst damage. This is the probably the biggest issue as the guidelines really stressed that we have academy grindy troops and other units fulfill the roll of shock.
      Grinding units. Primarily CC academy units, who due to their inter-unit-synergies and higher body count, are especially well equipped for prolonged combats as they offer a continuous source of damage with the ability to sustain damage to a higher degree. These units should have smaller focus (if any) on higher damage output first turn of combat, and instead use more even damage output. Note that these are decent grinding units in an elven context. Next to a dwarf units they should still feel fragile.

      3) I felt the Legionaires with sword and board are vastly overshadowed by the spear unit. And if Auxiliary get a special boost like this then then Legionair sword and board will never be taken. It's one thing to say they are just a legacy unit but when the goal of the book is to make academy units a prime focus I feel we owe it to ourselves to do our best to make it happen.

      4) the Gladus checks the box of Dread Elves having access to superior equipment. It creates an iconic weapon fluff wise. When people think of dread elves they can think of the Gladius and the Repeater Xbow. And it solidifies the legion theme/idea so that DE core infantry aren't just a copy pasted elf entry but still feel similar enough that they are common elves.

      ---------------------------------------
      Don't get me wrong here, I think it would super fun and cool to have the fire on impact type rule like the Empire has. But the game designer in says there are problems. I even had a couple cool ideas for firing into combat but eventually tossed them out due to the above reasons.


      ----------------------------
      Close combat
      specialists are troops which excel against dedicated targets but which are not able to exercise their full potential against other troops. Specialised troops reward players who create situations where they are fighting what they are meant to fight.

      I also wanted to stress here that by giving Legionaires/Auxillaries the Gladius for AP1 and not giving AP to Corsairs, it really makes corsairs fit into this specialist role. Especially corsairs having 0 AP and strength 4. They'll be really good at killing lightly armoured units and chaff while the Legiosn can concentrate on the main battle units.

      No one really knew what to do with corsairs and how to make them fill a role but not be the same as the other core infantry.

      I am also thinking about a bit more fine tuning of corsiars. Such as them getting Vanguard 6" automatically instead of getting vanguard 12" with a Fleet master hero.
      It goes against special deployment but because they come from Raiders catagory, same as the Dark riders and Raven Cloaks so percentage wise for the army there is no increase in special deployment and 6" vanguard is fairly weak.
    • New

      Greatwork Peacemaker, as expected, there are things I like and thing I feel not so sure about.

      I think priest should be able to join units without cult buffs, but not other (rival) cult units.

      I like beast capturers. I like beast handler option for monsters. However, as far as I know, discipline effect of handler is already calculated in to the monsters. So can be tricky to point-balance.
      I don't like raptor unit. Just as we aren't allowed slave units, I think just throwing raptors aren't so good.. Though may be they are using raptors like Romans used lions in gladiatorial fights. So may be a skirmishing unit?
      I think beast master should have option for hunting chariot mount AND raptor chariot.

      Fleet commander should have option for manticore - but that's more a fluff point.

      Academy buff sounds fine except it feels a bit similar to empire unit interactions...
      While I like gladius +1 AP ability, I feel this whole academy entry could be summarized somewhat.
      Why not make legionnaires a single entry with hand weapon shield + option for (one choice only) repeater xbow or spear?

      In the same vein also why not make cultists a single unit with options for different entries for cults? It is too far out there idea I guess.

      Dread Reaper - corsair option or academy option?

      Assasins and raven cloaks should be separate from all other factions.
    • New

      Eymuster wrote:

      I think priest should be able to join units without cult buffs, but not other (rival) cult units

      Eymuster wrote:

      In the same vein also why not make cultists a single unit with options for different entries for cults? It is too far out there idea I guess.
      Well I took out the cult rivalries because 1) the overwhelming demand for low restrictions(no mono). 2) toning down of the cults. 3) cult priest is to be a buff character but do not encourage deathstars.
      So the cult priest takes on the bonous of the cult unit it joins. This way you are not forced to pick the unit it joins when you design your list(otherwise leads to mono cults). This also discourages running the priest off as some solo cowboy if someone figures out how.

      Combining of units with a plethora of upgrades to make them into entirely different units is what T9A has been moving away from. It's easier to design a book when a unit entry has a specific role in mind and the options merely facilitate how speciific/powerful it can be in that role. Like Blades of Nabh is a front loaded damage dealer, low AP, low defenses. In current book it doesn't have alot of options to tweak the role so everyone just takes Rending Banner. But what happens when you allow the unit to swap Nabh for Hatred? ..... Banner of speed becomes an enticing option.
      So I kinda already made the cults in to a handful of units that select options. Blades are the core damage dealers. Dancers are elite defenders, Acolytes are the utility cav. The Medusa should be the elite damage dealers but I haven't really thought about it much.

      Eymuster wrote:

      I like beast handler option for monsters. However, as far as I know, discipline effect of handler is already calculated in to the monsters. So can be tricky to point-balance.
      OH! is that why the current monsters are so bloody expensive? The RT expects us to take beastmaster as soon as we field 1 hydra? lol.
      This is why they need to release design notes with the books. ....it's one reason I over explain my designs.

      All the beast stuff is up for tweaking as the guidelines weren't too specific.

      Eymuster wrote:

      I don't like raptor unit. Just as we aren't allowed slave units, I think just throwing raptors aren't so good.. Though may be they are using raptors like Romans used lions in gladiatorial fights. So may be a skirmishing unit?
      Raptors aren't sentient beings. Neither are harpies(as far as I know). Guidelines were specific in that harnessed stuff with riders are not part of beastmaster theme(except of course if mounted by the Beastmaster character like on a manticore). The reasoning is that every race has mounts and harnessed beasts but DE have the ability to train beasts to another level.
      Basically this unit is just to fill out the beastMaster theme.
      Can't be skirmishing as lateral/avoidance movement is heavily restricted. ....they would scrap raven cloaks if they think they could get away with it. lol.
      Also we got harpies with skirmish so the raptors are more a rank and file beast unit. ...albeit a bad one. Like i said, just there to fill out the beast theme for those who want to make an entire beastmaster army.

      Eymuster wrote:

      Fleet commander should have option for manticore - but that's more a fluff point.
      With the fleet mastser losing the +2 armour from Kraken hide his role changes significantly. I'm not sure how to balance that or what direction to really go with his entry.
      People currently use him just for the +2 armour. Or as a vanguard cowboy.
      How is it a fluff point when in current book he isn't allowed to be on manticore?

      Eymuster wrote:

      Assasins and raven cloaks should be separate from all other factions.
      I'm not so sure on this. Currently they are part of the Cults = meh.
      Assiassin on his own is fine. The Raven cloaks I feel are a very corsair style unit. Not that any rules need to be made to make them more pirate like. But they'll totally be in the Corsair Auxiliary book due to just their role - that's where they will get any pirate like rules.


      Eymuster wrote:

      Dread Reaper - corsair option or academy option?
      With an option for Kraken hide's distracting/hart target? I LOVE IT! Totally going in Corsair Auxiliary book.
      From experience, my opponents already have a hard time killing my Dread Reapers.
      But if academy buff is too strong on it then the Reapers don't need to be part of any faction.
      The guidelines were stating that every unit in the book has to be part of one of the 3 themes. So that's why I forced everything into one. Including assassins and raven cloaks

      Eymuster wrote:

      Academy buff sounds fine except it feels a bit similar to empire unit interactions...

      I don't see anyway around this while trying to support msu builds.
      My Academy buff is currently the LEAST empire like. lol.
      And other idea for academy that I've seen just slap on buffs like swiftstride which just isn't needed on infantry or it ups close combat damage which typically goes against the guidelines for little to no burst damage on academy units. Or it makes them just too strong for core.

      To me, units simply being in range to get a buff from each other isn't sole the empire thing. The empire stuff focuses heavily on parent/detachment mechanics which I feel should not be used outside of empire.
      While empire has a similar rank bonus rule it still rely's heavily on the parent unit. Dread Elves is supposed to be all the Academy units supporting each other roughly equally.


      Eymuster wrote:

      While I like gladius +1 AP ability, I feel this whole academy entry could be summarized somewhat.
      Why not make legionnaires a single entry with hand weapon shield + option for (one choice only) repeater xbow or spear?

      Main reason is pricing. Balance team likes to do their starting models at a discount/premium while extra models are more expensive/cheaper. Which lets them encourage smaller or bigger units depending on the designated role of the unit/army.

      So legionaries start at 15models while Auxiliaries start at 10.
      Also, this makes it easier for a special rule being allowed on the unit.

      I used to be a fan of 1 unit entry with tons of options, but it really depends on the army and unit entry. And design wise we'd have to double the points again in order to appropriately cost everything.
    • New

      Had some thoughts on the cult priest:

      Divine Alter mount option armour should be +1 instead of the current +2. The solo entry has it as Arm1 with light armour. I think the character mount option should be the same.
      This goes in line with reducing armour guidelines.

      The Cult Priest should have a 4+ aegis against melee attacks in it's profile. This should incentivize taking it without the Alter and inside of units.

      ------------------------------------------

      I was thinking a bit more about the repeater Auxiliaries and the "may always stand and shoot ability".
      I'm liking it alot. It compensates for short range. Incentivizes the player to get really up close. Does not contribute burst damage to combat.
      I still like the Gladius on them as it allows them to grind like the other troops instead of bleed combat res. And it really incentives to try and get up into short range so that with the -1 stand and shoot modifier they are hitting on 5's.

      The earlier discussion on the gladius just keeps reminding me of the threads about shooting units and close combat and how they just don't' work unless they have combat stats. Weak combat stats means players never put them into combat. Infernal dwarves tested this over and over.

      I think with this change it's at the point where it can be tested. And if indeed too powerful with the gladius then scrap it and see if people still go close.
    • New

      Thnks for explaining your choices, it was also enlightening for me :)
      I feel we need some more background(fluff) input to start designing mechanics for units, otherwise it feels a bit pointless.
      For example why I think manticore should be an option for fleet commander is because I envision dread elf nation as a cross between Rome pre-empire (academy) and Venice (corsairs). My entire basis for this is the item called seal of the republic :) based on this I see cults as classes within society more than religion. Olaron is the senatorial houses and their most loyal (blood-related) henchmen. I guess the senators live in towers. Cadaron is the “farmer” citizens (meaning slave masters outside the cities). The always stand and shoot ability would be an awesome buff for this cult (they need to shoot slaves who suddenly turn against their masters all the time)
      Nabh is the plebs, living and off the senatorial houses in de cities. They fill the tribunes, where rhetoric always triumphs over reason. Yema is the artisans, artists and also the merchants. Their work does not bring respect in DE society, so they often form fighting bands too..
      Academy is like an institution of its own, it is a come all serve all employment agency. Usually citizens looking to improve their position in the senate requisition some units from the academy. So the legionaries are actually mercenaries.
      Why raven cloaks and assasins are separate, because I see them as the beautocracy of the state, a force within the republic that is keeping everyone in check and making sure the senate doesn’t plunge it into complete destruction. This is the obsidian throne. In reality however ther are also divided and different interests work against each other.