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  • Mr.Gobbo wrote:

    Against daemons in turn 1, one of my wrecking teams rolled triple, and ate a good chunk of my boar boyz. Always a pleasure. Later that game, my Iron Orc Warlord (and pig) did 6 wounds to the mage blight gremlins, they saved 5 of them, I lost combat by one, failed my re-rollable LD9 test, and lost my boar bus, feral orc master wizard and iron orc general.
    omfg thats horrible
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  • Warboss Tooth wrote:

    omfg thats horrible
    Yup. I take comfort in the fact, that I would have lost the game anyway, and that both unlucky events happened in a game that was already a red matchup. :P

    My Swedish DL opponent was very kind, and a pleasure to play against. So it didn't hurt too much. Always lube up!

    Now, had they happened in my game against VC or VS, my team mates would have been very disappointed by me getting 0 points.. :3

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  • Trains_Get_Robbed wrote:

    Gnashers are simply under cost no two ways around it. Just because the internal balance within a book isn’t properly costed, and group think-tank is too slow to catch up with the meta, doesn't mean that they aren’t under cost for they do.
    but why do you think they are under costed? I just said when they were at 13 points they were rarely taken. They went down only 1 point. Thats a measly 24 points in a unit of 24. my point was due to other units getting over nerfed the meta shifted to the next best unit. Don't get me wrong i like them but they are by no means broken. The simple fact that besides magic and the idol there is no way to buff this unit. without command, scoring, or the ability to add characters there's no real way to make a list around them. they weren't even taken in almost half of those etc lists.

    If 22 units taken in 20 Lists indicates an over powered unit then using that logic we need to nerf orc shamans, goblin witch doctors, regular orcs, and catapults.

    What needs to be explored is why something is more popular then it used to be. Not just jumping to point increasing and nerfs. currently in my opinion they are only popular because they are the one of the few actual useful units we have. and we have lots of unit choices so that might just say something about some of our other units...
  • Warboss Tooth wrote:

    Mr.Gobbo wrote:

    Against daemons in turn 1, one of my wrecking teams rolled triple, and ate a good chunk of my boar boyz. Always a pleasure. Later that game, my Iron Orc Warlord (and pig) did 6 wounds to the mage blight gremlins, they saved 5 of them, I lost combat by one, failed my re-rollable LD9 test, and lost my boar bus, feral orc master wizard and iron orc general.
    omfg thats horrible

    Sounds like the kind of trainwreck incident you just cant take yer eyes off
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.
  • Phoenix5 wrote:

    Trains_Get_Robbed wrote:

    Gnashers are simply under cost no two ways around it. Just because the internal balance within a book isn’t properly costed, and group think-tank is too slow to catch up with the meta, doesn't mean that they aren’t under cost for they do.
    but why do you think they are under costed? I just said when they were at 13 points they were rarely taken. They went down only 1 point. Thats a measly 24 points in a unit of 24. my point was due to other units getting over nerfed the meta shifted to the next best unit. Don't get me wrong i like them but they are by no means broken. The simple fact that besides magic and the idol there is no way to buff this unit. without command, scoring, or the ability to add characters there's no real way to make a list around them. they weren't even taken in almost half of those etc lists.
    If 22 units taken in 20 Lists indicates an over powered unit then using that logic we need to nerf orc shamans, goblin witch doctors, regular orcs, and catapults.

    What needs to be explored is why something is more popular then it used to be. Not just jumping to point increasing and nerfs. currently in my opinion they are only popular because they are the one of the few actual useful units we have. and we have lots of unit choices so that might just say something about some of our other units...

    I took most - and I took them because of a) the nice shotgun effect b) I were going to play a Battle Line and I needed bricks that did not have scoring

    Are they good boom for the cost? Sure.

    Do they haul in good Battle Points for their cost? Not at all.

    Sadly, the most efficient use mine saw was to play deterrence while my mages and machines picked some points off :(
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.
  • Phoenix5 wrote:

    Trains_Get_Robbed wrote:

    Gnashers are simply under cost no two ways around it. Just because the internal balance within a book isn’t properly costed, and group think-tank is too slow to catch up with the meta, doesn't mean that they aren’t under cost for they do.
    but why do you think they are under costed? I just said when they were at 13 points they were rarely taken.

    Models for the unit are far more widely available since the new GW models.

    Also the “measly 24 pts” can be applied both ways.
  • Phoenix5 wrote:

    Trains_Get_Robbed wrote:

    Gnashers are simply under cost no two ways around it. Just because the internal balance within a book isn’t properly costed, and group think-tank is too slow to catch up with the meta, doesn't mean that they aren’t under cost for they do.
    but why do you think they are under costed? I just said when they were at 13 points they were rarely taken. They went down only 1 point. Thats a measly 24 points in a unit of 24. my point was due to other units getting over nerfed the meta shifted to the next best unit. Don't get me wrong i like them but they are by no means broken. The simple fact that besides magic and the idol there is no way to buff this unit. without command, scoring, or the ability to add characters there's no real way to make a list around them. they weren't even taken in almost half of those etc lists.
    If 22 units taken in 20 Lists indicates an over powered unit then using that logic we need to nerf orc shamans, goblin witch doctors, regular orcs, and catapults.

    What needs to be explored is why something is more popular then it used to be. Not just jumping to point increasing and nerfs. currently in my opinion they are only popular because they are the one of the few actual useful units we have. and we have lots of unit choices so that might just say something about some of our other units...
    Hey Phoenix, have you ever played against a list with 100+ gnashers? Personally its this type of list I see as the problem.

    288pts for 24 is a very choppy unit that can easily go toe to toe with units costing double their points. Five of these units are only 1495pts. Yes they don't score and don't have access to command but in my opinion this doesn't off set how good value they are. And then out side of combat they are m5 switftstride...

    Playing against this is even worse if you are playing OnG yourself or a similarly low agility army. People on the OK forum was complaining about some guy in the USA that was consistently getting top 3 with a 100+ gnasher list, can try and dig out a link if you interested.

    As you mention not that many people are taking loads of them, I'm going to suggest this is as not many people own 100+ gnashes and hence have seen how effective an army of them can be. With the new plastic gw squigs models getting release I think if they are left at 12 points you will only see more and more of them. If a point increase follows at a later date people that have invested in many gnashes will be grumpy.

    As point increases\decreases are the only tools we have for balance atm I would suggest gnashers go back to 13pts where they will still be a decent choice but a little less spammable. Previously at 13pts I agree they weren't taken much but I think the meta has shifted a fair bit since then, you now see a lot less elves which are the armies that can best deal with gnashes dues to their superior agility.
  • Phoenix5 wrote:

    I just said when they were at 13 points they were rarely taken. They went down only 1 point. Thats a measly 24 points in a unit of 24. my point was due to other units getting over nerfed the meta shifted to the next best unit. Don't get me wrong i like them but they are by no means broken. The simple fact that besides magic and the idol there is no way to buff this unit. without command, scoring, or the ability to add characters there's no real way to make a list around them. they weren't even taken in almost half of those etc lists.

    If 22 units taken in 20 Lists indicates an over powered unit then using that logic we need to nerf orc shamans, goblin witch doctors, regular orcs, and catapults.

    What needs to be explored is why something is more popular then it used to be.
    See below for answer

    berti wrote:

    I am not sure, but did not the line formation rule also change, allowing 8 wide units to benefit from it?
    This is propably huge impact in combination with their lowered point costs.
    Berti is dead right.

    With reduction in points PLUS benefit of also getting FIER due to Horde 10 wide being replaced by Line 8 wide, meant that Gnashers gained 2 bufffs at the same time.

    Those are the reasons Gnashers suddenly got so popular.
  • Even at 13 PPM and no other changes people will still take 100 if they want to. They will have one less magic item in their list or one less bolt thrower, but they will run the same list. more or less what i'm trying to say is that a change of one point wont do anything and any more would nerf them back to the shelves.

    It sounds to me like your guy's issue is not just the "value per model" but the ability to spam 5 units of them. I can get behind a reasonable limit to how many units you can take. Currently its 0-5 which I can see being reduced to 0-3.
  • You probably never played with 100+ gnashers to understand how difficult it can be.

    Most of the units will be outside of ld bubble and pop to any flank charge.

    Even playing with 3 units 8 wide was sometimes challenging.

    I still think they are a bit too cheap now (13 pts was probably better) and that def 4 seems a bit odd.

    I would prefer to see more trolls and less gnashers :p
  • zKoTTe wrote:

    Battlefocus shooty VS armies?
    double catapult, double globe launcher, doom bell, plague pendulum, occultism and thaumatology (shooty is shooty), 2 units of plague brotherhood (battle focus), and 2 units of plague disciples (battle focus). Double dreadmill (RIP in peace, Gargantula and GGI).

    Battlefocus + hatred is SO good, especially when you get to strike first :D

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    Mr. Gobbo's Tricksy Gits :GobboFreaky:
  • Phoenix5 wrote:

    Even at 13 PPM and no other changes people will still take 100 if they want to. They will have one less magic item in their list or one less bolt thrower, but they will run the same list. more or less what i'm trying to say is that a change of one point wont do anything and any more would nerf them back to the shelves.

    It sounds to me like your guy's issue is not just the "value per model" but the ability to spam 5 units of them. I can get behind a reasonable limit to how many units you can take. Currently its 0-5 which I can see being reduced to 0-3.
    I think that even such a small points increase will have an influence. Sure, some people will keep playing 100 gnashers, but others will play less. Some might even not play any anymore.
  • I think Gnashers would be fixed with a change in WS. Imo WS says how well a model can fight, how good he is with his weapon. Gnashers should have WS3. They are beasts and, in my mind, feral and instinctive.

    Same with core orcs. A orc with WS4 says that he is above average in sword(or axe etc)manship. For me core orcs are not.

    Gnashers with ws3, at least in DS, would make sense and fix them.
    :O&G: :VC: :KoE:

    Homebrew Army: The Lycanthropes
  • Well, redesign is far. But when brainstorming, I would give Ganshers the role of dedicated tarpit eaters. Having not so strong offensive power as now, but getting additional attacks for every wound they do. Like for example killing 23 zombies a turn, but hardly one knight.

    The role of dedicated can opener should be reserved for Iron Orcs. Those should perform excellent when fighting strong and armored opponents like WdGs and Knights. Not as elite as WdG for sure, but more point efficient when in direct comparison.

    But unfortunately the full book is far away, so currently we can only play with points.
  • I could understand DS3, it makes sense, i don't see them trying to hard to protect them selves wile they try to eat something. however i also think OS4 also could make sense on a creature that has literally one weapon. It would be hard to avoid or parry a mouth full of angry teeth that's also 4 feet wide and can swallow you whole. They don't need to worry about you blocking them with a shield or a sword as they would just eat it as well as your arm.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Phoenix5 ().

  • Gnasher are fine, but better than increasing the points or DS 3, I would limit the number we can take, like 0-50.
    I think right now they are what they should be, we just need to limit the number to avoid those +100 Gnasher armies.

    Do not forget that if you break from combat they disappear, what is easier than you would think. An armored cowboy, or a unit with parry on the flank/rear and they will prob pop bc they usually go in line formation so no ranks.

    I played against a list with 120 Gnasher and I charged a unit of 40 Gnashers with my iron Orc cowboy with the omen of the Apocalypse on boar, I killed 4-5, he did nothing, out of general range, and pop.

    Do they hit hard? Yes, against some targets. One bad matchup and you disappear. I like them but they are not what people say.

    Better than focusing on nerfing the few used units we should try to focus on those useless units like Trolls, common goblins, Gnasher dashers, wyvern, etc
  • Rubert wrote:

    Gnasher are fine, but better than increasing the points or DS 3, I would limit the number we can take, like 0-50.
    I think right now they are what they should be, we just need to limit the number to avoid those +100 Gnasher armies.

    Do not forget that if you break from combat they disappear, what is easier than you would think. An armored cowboy, or a unit with parry on the flank/rear and they will prob pop bc they usually go in line formation so no ranks.

    I played against a list with 120 Gnasher and I charged a unit of 40 Gnashers with my iron Orc cowboy with the omen of the Apocalypse on boar, I killed 4-5, he did nothing, out of general range, and pop.

    Do they hit hard? Yes, against some targets. One bad matchup and you disappear. I like them but they are not what people say.

    Better than focusing on nerfing the few used units we should try to focus on those useless units like Trolls, common goblins, Gnasher dashers, wyvern, etc
    Although I agree with focusing on the units you state, some of these are not fixable by points alone.

    Trolls and common goblins need rules change. Just points won't help them much. The biggest offender to the have weakened the common goblins is the Nerf to volley. Trolls, well, it is known.
    :O&G: :VC: :KoE:

    Homebrew Army: The Lycanthropes