Sylvan Elf LAB Brainstorm/Ideas thread.

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  • Hachiman Taro wrote:

    If only there were big tree like models with giant bows available...
    Not a fan of these "Bow Thickets". That's a bit weird and it would need heavy fluff justification. There are a lot of other units i would rather see added in the book.

    For exemple I would love an option for treemen to throw rocks while they are three inches close to some counter (rock stock). Very costly catapult, but that turn into a fighting option later in the game
  • I hugely support the idea of a Forest spirit auxiliary book which expands upon what we have already.

    Not to be *tooo* derivative, but I enjoy the idea of thicket weaponry, however I would go about it as a completely new unit as opposed just upgrades for a Thicket Beast unit. You simply cannot give A 4+/5++ Resilience 5 Str 5 model a great weapon, they'd be the most resilient hardest hitting unit in the game. I'd call them Grove Wardens, Ws/Ds 5, 3 wounds resilience 4 Str 5. Think elite Shabti. With options for Halberds and Grove Bows. For Grove Bows I'd use the Lifeseed Feathers concept, because lord knows this concept is almost impossible to balance correctly on a magic bow and should be removed from there, but I enjoy the imagery so it would find a place here. There would also be an upgrade for the Thicket Shepherd to become a Thicket Warden, +1 Ws/DS, access to weaponry, and a magic banner perhaps.

    These would find a place in an auxillary book however and not in the LAB. A forest spirit I *would* like to see in our lab is an elite Dryad unit. A scouting melee unit. They could be an ambushing melee unit, but I'd prefer scout, as it doesn't step on the toes of Beast Herds as much. I like the concept of 'evil' dryads, scary ones, they *ARE* the reason people are afraid of the wood at night.

    Scout, Ws 5, Hatred, 2 Str 4 AP 1 attacks, light troops, fear (perhaps causing an additional -1 if they are within a wood). This is all they'd need to be interesting. Tree lists need to be available without taking 2 blocks of thicket beasts in special as the only option.

    Oh, btw I'd also suggest bringing non-treefather forest spirit Armour piercing down a notch (Str 4 AP 0, Str 5 AP 1). IMHO if the goal is to make a cohesive book, rather than 2 sub factions within a single LAB, we should take some steps towards specializing trees and elves into niches.
    - Mv 6 Adv 12 for melee infantry elves, with good AP values.
    - Str X Ap X-1 for non-treefather forest spirits.
    - Non-big-tree spirit options for outside of core, i.e Sprite Swarm and Spooky Dryads.

    I think the SE book would benefit a lot from strong initial design concepts, because while our book is functionally great I can certainly see it coming together as a cohesive picture a lot better than it currently is.
  • I want to echo some of these fun concepts already said.

    Forest spirits are really cool concept, a real fun project to scratch build and can easily given an ability that either reinforces our strengths or mitigates our weaknesses.

    Give an incentive to put elf heroes in spirit units and vice versa. Could open up a lot of list building options and would look darn cool on table.

    Someone mentioned climbing elves. Give pathfinders that ability! If they didn't move and are inside a forest they'd be elevated. Better LoS, Distracting in melee, and 5++ against ranged attacks. I thought Hard Target would be more fitting, but then they'd be even more vulnerable to magic missiles.

    Alexwellace wrote:

    Oh, btw I'd also suggest bringing non-treefather forest spirit Armour piercing down a notch (Str 4 AP 0, Str 5 AP 1). IMHO if the goal is to make a cohesive book, rather than 2 sub factions within a single LAB, we should take some steps towards specializing trees and elves into niches.

    - Mv 6 Adv 12 for melee infantry elves, with good AP values.
    - Str X Ap X-1 for non-treefather forest spirits.
    - Non-big-tree spirit options for outside of core, i.e Sprite Swarm and Spooky Dryads.
    I like this. Strategically it would be good to have elves more AP orientated and spirits more STR orientated. You and your opponent would know at a glance which units would want to fight which enemy ones.


    And one of my own thing too to add. As an ID player it seems I only look at other armies through ID lens, and this time I was thinking of the Gunnery Team Flamer. It has an alternative firing mode which makes the target flammable (for the next flaming attack), but don't really do damage, and I've not used that ability outside of not reaching with the normal flamer attack (the alt. attack also has more range).

    So how about giving either Scouts or Waywatchers or Maidens (or even the nonexistent Forest Spirit swarms) an alternate fire which does less damage, but marks the target take more damage from the next unit shooting it. They'd have something to do while not having any good targets for their normal attacks at hand. For those "Geez, I can't dent that unit with my S3 shooting at all, and don't really want to fight it either" situations.

    Lets say handgun fire equivalent, or even something compared to a war machine strength so that SE would have a pseudo artillery piece.
    I guess it should be made pretty rare since SE are not supposed to have medium or high strength shooting?
  • I’m wary of mixing up book cohesion with specialized units. When the WDG book fits came out every unit was heavily specialised and due in a large part to that over-specialisation the book was far from cohesive.

    What was found was that there need to be some generalist units who can overlap to improve cohesion. I would keep thicket beasts as that unit.
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef
  • I haven't read the full tread so if this has already been proposed please disregard my post. What I would like to see in the new book is another type of monster, something like a fairy dragon or similar. It could be a pure glass cannon mobile mini monster as opposite to tree father:

    WS5 A5 ST5 AP3 R5 W5 AGI4 Fly7 D3 stomp (Large, Beast)

    no armor, no ward but some cool abilities like "The forest mist: the model gains hard target 1, this ability is given to all friendly units within 6""

    This could be a good complement to our fragile elven units and it could have a sinergi with trees too and if the price Tag is around 320 it wouldn't be OP either.
  • nantuko wrote:

    I haven't read the full tread so if this has already been proposed please disregard my post. What I would like to see in the new book is another type of monster, something like a fairy dragon or similar. It could be a pure glass cannon mobile mini monster as opposite to tree father:

    WS5 A5 ST5 AP3 R5 W5 AGI4 Fly7 D3 stomp (Large, Beast)

    no armor, no ward but some cool abilities like "The forest mist: the model gains hard target 1, this ability is given to all friendly units within 6""

    This could be a good complement to our fragile elven units and it could have a sinergi with trees too and if the price Tag is around 320 it wouldn't be OP either.
    Mmm, Treefolk aside.. big and stompy isn't something you associate with Wood Elves

    Frankly the Dragon is veeery hard to justify as it is (it's only there because all elves automatically needed to have one back in the 90ties), and I think RT would just throw out this idea on those grounds alone.

    I think something like this modified version is the realistic goal...

    WS4 A3 ST4 AP3 R4 W5 AGI4 Fly7 Stomp 1 (Large, Beast)
    Hard Target/Distracting for defence
    Debuff ability
  • Someone proposed a monster hunting light monster, like a giant Tiger or Wolf or something, that could hunt other monsters. Maybe with some kind of crippling wound effect. I would find that really cool.

    Also some way to have more powerful Giant Eagles, something like LOTR would be nice to make them something other than sacrificial chaff. For now, they're weirdly weaker than kestrels.
  • I feel like I should link the homebrew thread I made for this topic in particular... and I think I will, specifically highlighting the ones that I really think would be cool/ fit a thematic hole in the SE roster/ theme. Once I get home. Flagging this thread until then.
    Apparently I can't have mod tags in my signature anymore. Sadness is cast. It is placed on the stack. Sadness resolves.

    Here have my homebrew
  • Here we go. This is the thread I opened up a few months ago, and edited just a little bit to update it for more modern takes on things, or because I reconsidered some of the units inside of it.

    Mainly, I think the Briar Haunts, Roc/ Thunderbird (whichever name you want to give it) and Nymph all work for this discussion of ways to expand the roster and fill in the relatively glaring weaknesses of the book.

    Briar Haunts
    For Briar Haunts, SE units really need to be in a forest in order to function at their peak points performance. And that... that is really hard to finagle because forests are not going to always be on the battlefield beyond the one you bring, and your opponent, knowing that you get a lot from fighting in a forest, will avoid them if they can. While this can help with area denial (depending on where you place your free forest,) it makes the special rule a good deal less active and more of a negative space rule. A rule to be avoided rather than a tool to be leveraged. This unit functioning like a mobile forest for units that it is riiiiight next to helps to alleviate that problem, allowing the SE player to actively unlock the use of their special rule with certainty via points (where tree singing would be uncertain but with magic investment instead.) If they are implemented in this way, then the free forest might be something that is dropped from the army book because you don't need to bring free terrain the use as a crutch, and tree singing would be left targeting natural forests, the forest from the acorn item, and could potentially target this unit (have them count as a forest for treesinging).

    Oh, and they have scout and vanguard because that way you can get them into the position you need them in right at the start of the game. This might seem like I'm trying to make a "baby's girst very easy deployment" unit here but YOU CAN HAVE SOMETHING SIMPLE AND EASY TO USE, SE COMMUNITY. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE TORTURED AND DOING 5D CHESS WITH YOUR ENTIRE NON-TREE LINEUP IN ORDER TO USE THEM EFFECTIVELY.

    Thematically, it shows off the difference between the concept of justice between the Highborn elves (imprisonment/ execution,) Dread Elves (slavery, execution or sacrifice,) and the Sylvan elves. Briar haunts are a fey style punishment for the Sylvan elves' erstwhile cousins, literal prisoners stripped of their mortality and used as a host for the sylvan spirits that the primal elves have allied to. All of their individuality stripped away until nothing but a hollow elf with memories of what they were is left behind, all for the benefit of their Sylvan elf jailers.

    Because sylvan elves do not forgive the betrayal that their kin's separation inflicted upon them. Not even hundreds of generations after the fact. This is the punishment awaiting kinslayers and blood traitors. This is fey justice. This is where the truly vicious aspect of sylvan elves can be displayed (for anyone who wants/ misses that theme) without stepping on GW's toes.


    Rock/ Thunderbird
    This is a big, mobile lighting bird that shows sylvan elf alliances with magical beings other races don't have a monopoly on (*coughcough*Highbornwithalldragonsandfirestuff*COUGHCOUGH*), while also answering things that are armored, tough, psuedo-deathstar blobs that the normal SE list is going to have trouble dealing with. Or even dwarven gunlines... actually no wait this won't change that match-up... BUT IT WILL HELP!

    Its weapon is a non-fire flamethrower, basically, and is on a fast, flying monster (if a bit fragile, given it's only T5, 5HP, and has a 4+/6++,) allowing it to rain down the fury of the storm upon some stunty/ heretic god worshiping fools. It still needs to roll to hit for each attack on that potent shooting weapon, and random shots keep it from being too reliable, but the bird exists to punish the playstyles that are so rock-paper-scissors for the elven parts of the SE army book (blobs of cheap/ stupid heavily armored and tough infantry or heavy monsters.) Their melee isn't particularly powerful, so they fit the SE general "assumed" playstyle of "Shoot first to weaken, charge in to finish off" to a T, effectively being a shooting monster rather than a melee one.

    Against an MSU list or just a list that doesn't have deep units, on the other hand, the roc/ thunderbird will need more careful use, since they won't get too many attacks with their shooting weapon, and they still aren't particularly powerful in melee combat.

    Thematically... they're... uh... LIGHTNING BORBS ARE COOL FIGHT ME. Also, the tree parts of the sylvan elves represent the earth, while the roc/thunderbird represents the sky. An aspect currently represented by normal eagles and kestrel riders, which this bird entry would be the non-character alpha for (kinda like the dichotomy between dryads/thicket beasts/big non-character trees.)


    Nymphs
    Water spirits that are meant to keep your other units from exploding via magic missiles. Because Sylvan elves are supposed to be evasive, but evasiveness does nothing against magic in the current system. Nymphs are a small, very fragile unit that needs to be protected to keep them from being wiped out by even the lightest of shooting. But if they can be protected, they can in turn keep your elven units protected from getting destroyed by pyromancy and other magic missile lores. They do nothing for trees, since the trees already have a 5+ ward.

    Thematically, these models are the water element, smothering magic to protect their elven allies from death.
    Apparently I can't have mod tags in my signature anymore. Sadness is cast. It is placed on the stack. Sadness resolves.

    Here have my homebrew
  • New

    About our trees...
    Nature aspects are trash, hope someday something like demons have.
    Treefather ancient is wayyy worst than normal treefather, he should take deffensive skill 5, impaling roots 3 and strenght 6 with ap3, no matter if you reduce attacks to 2, the importance is to do stomps with Str 6. He is old but no stupid cmon, 460 points are enough
    Avatar of nature is on a god spot but it should be more Orion oriented or at least creat one new Heroe similar to shapesfither but with a bigger base and better stats (more points).
    GD are more or less at the same level (we need some upgrades or cost reduction but no problem) except if we compare with Vermin Lord...
  • New

    Falco wrote:

    Nature aspects are trash, hope someday something like demons have.
    100% agree. We can still call them aspects but they totally need a mechanics change.


    Falco wrote:

    Treefather ancient is wayyy worst than normal treefather, he should take deffensive skill 5, impaling roots 3 and strenght 6 with ap3, no matter if you reduce attacks to 2, the importance is to do stomps with Str 6. He is old but no stupid cmon, 460 points are enough
    Avatar of nature is on a god spot but it should be more Orion oriented or at least creat one new Heroe similar to shapesfither but with a bigger base and better stats (more points).
    I think these guys are all too similar in their roles. For LAB they can have similar roles by the very fact they are all monsters but they still gotta have their niche.
  • New

    Falco wrote:

    Treefather ancient is wayyy worst than normal treefather, he should take deffensive skill 5, impaling roots 3 and strenght 6 with ap3, no matter if you reduce attacks to 2, the importance is to do stomps with Str 6. He is old but no stupid cmon, 460 points are enough

    Avatar of nature is on a god spot but it should be more Orion oriented or at least creat one new Heroe similar to shapesfither but with a bigger base and better stats (more points).
    Has it ever been considered to give any of our three big trees (TF Ancient, Avatar or TF) impact hits? I imagine one of these beasts charging at full speed like an avalanche. Not asking for a 2D6+1, but perhaphs a D3+1 (even D3) would make it much more attractive.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by raulmartinv ().

  • New

    raulmartinv wrote:

    Falco wrote:

    Treefather ancient is wayyy worst than normal treefather, he should take deffensive skill 5, impaling roots 3 and strenght 6 with ap3, no matter if you reduce attacks to 2, the importance is to do stomps with Str 6. He is old but no stupid cmon, 460 points are enough

    Avatar of nature is on a god spot but it should be more Orion oriented or at least creat one new Heroe similar to shapesfither but with a bigger base and better stats (more points).
    Has it ever been considered to give any of our three big trees (TF Ancient, Avatar or TF) impact hits? I imagine one of these beasts charging at full speed like an avalanche. Not asking for a 2D6+1, but perhaphs a D3+1 (even D3) would make it much more attractive.
    Sound idea, d3 would make sense, thumb up for this!