Sylvan Elf LAB Brainstorm/Ideas thread.

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  • Sylvan Elf LAB Brainstorm/Ideas thread.

    I made one of these threads for Dread Elves so I figured I'd make one for Sylvan Elves.

    So put forth your ideas and lets have some fun!

    I will ask to try to have semi-well constructed posts. ...mostly avoid one liners that balloon the thread to 500pages. ...nobody wants to read that.
    Since we don't have guidelines yet, you can also throw your 2 cents in regarding what direction Sylvan Elves should go in.
    Stuff like should Sylvan elves should be an avoidance army as much as possible.
    Should have the least Armour of the elves, but have the most Avoid Hits theme.
    How much avoidance/shooting/special deployment should we have and at what cost to other areas in order to balance that out?

    I find it good to give a guidelines feedback followed by a rough example. That way if you aren't a rules lawyer you can still convey the intent of your brainstorm rule/idea.

    ---------------------------------------

    I'll start first with some guidlines suggestions.

    I feel that Sylvan Elves should be the elves that are least mixed arms. Like their units are pretty darn good at operating independently all over the board - characters do not buff units except fluffy type buffs , almost no bubble effects beyond magic.
    (obviously the focus here is on Sylvan Elves, referencing the other two elves is to provide context).

    HBE being in middle somewhere, they can have individual mixed arms stuff like fae miasma, phoenix debuff type stuff, characters buff the unit they are in, but very little bubble effects beyond the cover volley fire and magic.


    Dread Elves should be the most mixed arms with units relying on buffs and bubbles. Academy, Alter, and Beastmaster bubble effects being prime examples.
  • Sylvan elves should be the most "avoid hits" of the 3 elves. With Dread Elf and High Elf being about medium.

    The way I would do this is give the elf part of the book distracting in first round of combat. And it could have conditional "distracting in every round if in a forest". Obviously take out the existing re-roll 1's in a forest to compensate for this power boost.

    What this does is free take out all the conditional distracting from the book and frees up space. It lets the other 2 elf books have all those conditional items/ rules while Sylvan elves simply get it all the time!
    It solves alot of the combat problems too. Obviously the lack of good armour is a theme in the book and special saves are more reserved for the actual forest daemons spirits.
  • Kudis wrote:

    Lifessed bow should just fire as normal and work with master archer. And instead of those wierd range things just make it so that when you wound something you also heal 1 hp. Bit more life aspect of it. Or like a charge system, you wound and then get a life token, next time you wound in close combat you heal yourself, or if att full HP, negate 1 wound. A mixed arms dude all in one
    putting this in the LAB thread.

    I could absolutely see this as a 100pt bow following the Sylvan Bow rules, working with Master Archer, which uses the Fountain of Youth rules for healing wounds when an unsaved wound is made.

    This would encourage close play with shooting characters and their units which has inherent counterplay.
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef
  • Fleshbeast wrote:

    Kudis wrote:

    Lifessed bow should just fire as normal and work with master archer. And instead of those wierd range things just make it so that when you wound something you also heal 1 hp. Bit more life aspect of it. Or like a charge system, you wound and then get a life token, next time you wound in close combat you heal yourself, or if att full HP, negate 1 wound. A mixed arms dude all in one
    putting this in the LAB thread.
    I could absolutely see this as a 100pt bow following the Sylvan Bow rules, working with Master Archer, which uses the Fountain of Youth rules for healing wounds when an unsaved wound is made.

    This would encourage close play with shooting characters and their units which has inherent counterplay.
    Instead of recovering wounds it should just grant a Fortitude token that can be used for a fortitude save.
  • Peacemaker wrote:

    Fleshbeast wrote:

    Kudis wrote:

    Lifessed bow should just fire as normal and work with master archer. And instead of those wierd range things just make it so that when you wound something you also heal 1 hp. Bit more life aspect of it. Or like a charge system, you wound and then get a life token, next time you wound in close combat you heal yourself, or if att full HP, negate 1 wound. A mixed arms dude all in one
    putting this in the LAB thread.I could absolutely see this as a 100pt bow following the Sylvan Bow rules, working with Master Archer, which uses the Fountain of Youth rules for healing wounds when an unsaved wound is made.

    This would encourage close play with shooting characters and their units which has inherent counterplay.
    Instead of recovering wounds it should just grant a Fortitude token that can be used for a fortitude save.
    This is a cool idea.


    Peacemaker wrote:

    Sylvan elves should be the most "avoid hits" of the 3 elves. With Dread Elf and High Elf being about medium.

    The way I would do this is give the elf part of the book distracting in first round of combat. And it could have conditional "distracting in every round if in a forest". Obviously take out the existing re-roll 1's in a forest to compensate for this power boost.

    What this does is free take out all the conditional distracting from the book and frees up space. It lets the other 2 elf books have all those conditional items/ rules while Sylvan elves simply get it all the time!
    It solves alot of the combat problems too. Obviously the lack of good armour is a theme in the book and special saves are more reserved for the actual forest daemons spirits.
    This should be the "Elves" only. Not the spirits.

    I am torn between two things with SE. They need to differentiate from the other two factions in some way. Should they be hyper elite elves or more of a strength in numbers race with true elites making up the special forces? Both have merit.

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  • I thought the HBE fluff aligned itself to numbers of citizens being the first line of defence with the hyper elite Swordmasters etc being in special.

    I suppose really it comes down to whether SE are an elite army or have elite entries?

    I could see the fluff around elite army with low numbers of elves being bulked out by forest spirits (at a crude high level view).
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef
  • Fleshbeast wrote:

    I thought the HBE fluff aligned itself to numbers of citizens being the first line of defence with the hyper elite Swordmasters etc being in special.

    I suppose really it comes down to whether SE are an elite army or have elite entries?

    I could see the fluff around elite army with low numbers of elves being bulked out by forest spirits (at a crude high level view).
    Having read what has been written I am not sure about the relative population sizes. So probably not something that has been discussed yet. Maybe a good ask the sage question?

    It would make sense with SE being the "original" elves that they have more numbers than the HE islanders. But i could also see that their somewhat nomadic life style does not support large populations.

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  • I think Sylvan elves need more beasty creatures, that can come in large numbers, sprite swarms, birds swarms, wolves, or some more monsters to fill certain gaps, and are maybe not as elite.

    Or to divide the book into two Elves living in the wooden hills, and the other fraction more in the deepwoods and the spirits, this could be reflected by allowing one part of the book only a certain playstyle. If you take the spirits, then scouts and flyers etc. are more limited, if you like too be in the deepwood, then there might be more restriction on cavalry?

    something like that. The choice of your general (and its kindred) should enable/ disable playing options, and the availability of other kindreds...
  • Henrypmiller wrote:

    It would make sense with SE being the "original" elves that they have more numbers than the HE islanders. But i could also see that their somewhat nomadic life style does not support large populations.
    I envision it more like the Sylvan Elves are low population density but are spread throughout the world in almost all the forests so have higher total population.
    HBE started settling on the islands in cities so high population density but not as widespread.
    DE colonies split off and their provinces have a range of low to high population densities with an overall medium total population.
  • To me I think the starting point should be to define general playstyles in which each entry in the book (or suggested addition) fits into. For example:

    Oak and Thorn: Tree units provide a grindy anvil to fix enemy units in place while mobile aggressive units pressure, flank and eliminate light or ground down enemies.

    Arrow and Thorn: Mobile shooting elements remove chaff and weaken the enemy to allow fast aggressive elements to muticharge and eliminate them.

    Tree Grind: Heavy tree based core saturates, smothers and grinds the enemy into the dirt.

    Forest Guerrilla: Heavily mobile aggressive light combat elements out manoeuvre and multi charge the enemy out of existence, piecemeal.

    Combined Arms Battle Line: Aggressive character led elven infantry blocks push forward, controlling key areas of the battlefield rapidly, allowing faster and ranged elements to dictate favourable engagements.

    If we have these defined ways the army works in general, making sure every to be included unit has a place in them, I think it's easier to design to put them in that place, making 'dead' entries less likely.

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  • Hi all,

    Realised a moment ago that we don’t really have any multi-wound in our book other than treepapa crush attack.

    It feels a bit more like a feature rather than a bug but was curious about what others thought?
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef
  • Hachiman Taro wrote:

    Whirlwind blades used to didn't they? But they feeling was it wasn't efficient or something.
    The SE killy weapon hasnt been that good for a while now. But I feel there are better/sufficient options in the BRB.

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  • I think what we have seen with the deamon book is that units are becoming more RPS - very good at one thing but with defined weaknesses.

    I can see the shapeshifter going in this direction. Being able to one shot a monster is probably within the bounds of reality, but he needs a clear weakness.

    Example:

    This could be a dev charge rule which gives him multi wounds or extra strength for example (5 attacks, S6/7 (great weapon) and multi W 2), at a cost of frenzy when he charges and no access to magic armour/items (perhaps as a special entry rather than a character - he shouldn't be the general after all). this makes him very good vs monsters, but not durable enough to tackle characters (where the huntsmen role must be). His weaknesses continue to be small arms and magic.

    The trade off here is that currently, he can probably get rid of a monster in a couple of turns and survive against characters and ranged damage but he is VERY expensive (5-600 points).

    I would like to see him at about 400 points but able to kill that monster if you to manage to get him into it. However you have to protect him from the ranged damage and counter charges if he is going to survive.

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  • Serwyn wrote:

    Hachiman Taro wrote:

    Whirlwind blades used to didn't they? But they feeling was it wasn't efficient or something.
    If I remember correctly it was because it was too good at killing monsters on a shapeshifter, and even had the potential too oneshot them
    It wasn't exactly that he was too good at killing monsters, but rather that it was very hard to balance properly. He went from auto-include to never used in a single update with just a change from 4+ aegis to 5+ (or was it +1 aegis, I can't remember now). He either killed nearly anything he went up against, or couldn't reliably do anything at all.

    I was against the removal of MW from the book, although I didn't neccesarily mind it being removed from that specific item, and the MW bow simply doesn't work in its current form. High volume of high quality attacks is better overall than MW, but I think there is room in the book for both. If the Shifter becomes a dedicated monster/character hunter, I could see it getting less attacks in exchange for MW, making it worse against small units etc, but slightly more efficient against multi-wound targets. Multi-wound on top of lots of high quality attacks is not going to happen though, so there would have to be tradeoffs to any inclusion of MW in the book.
    My SE homebrew (New version 7/6/2020)
  • Maybe shapesfither multiple wounds against towering presence or something like that, with fear and no general...
    Or whirlwind gives MW against monsters... Act. our MW resources are treemans or one magic bow, otherwise we have good poison saturation (with maidens and sentinels)...

    I would like a book like vampires with bloodlines, pathfinder unlocks something,bldedancer too... and if your general is bladedancer kindred you will have bladedancers with magic resist two (for example) and paying for it ofc...

    About magic, think we have abandoned the idea of sylvan/nature elves as sinister. Our army is full of forest spirits (demons) so would be nice a darkness path of magic like evocation, witchcraft...

    I think people must be scared about our archers, we should be shooting 3-4 turns and then select our charges and take the objective, more guerrilla warfare with surgical charges
  • During an informal talk this Christmas with a decent non-SE player, he mentioned one idea that I would like to bring to the LAB, although it might sound weird, overrated and even crazy:

    Pathfinders, if they have line of sight and range towards the opponent's target, should be able to shoot their arrows as if they were inside any forest terrain. Let me explain.

    Let's say that there is a forest near by the deployment zone of your opponent. Your pathfinders are able to shoot them under regular conditions (line of sight, 30" range, etc). However, it will be a long shoot (-1 to hit) and with Strength 3. However, if the aforementioned forest is within 15" of the opponent, the shoot will be considered as if the pathfinders were inside the forest (short range, including S4).

    He also mentioned that if an opponent unit is within the forest, it should be something like 2 shoots per pathfinder, but I considered that too much (open for discussion though). He also said that, if the pathfinder shoots as if it is within the forest, the Master Archer rule shall be reduced to either Hit +1 or AP+1 (Instead of +2 to hit or +2 AP).

    Just bringing my two cents by publishing an idea heard in a local store.