Undying Dynasties and The Vermin Swarm being just too much more powerfull then other armys in any phase.

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  • i have been playing VS for 12 months now, below is my rum fueled comments and rant :)

    my idea of VS is a swarm army and love the idea of the engineers and the old engineer warlocks. My goal is to field a 4500 pts army with 200 models on the table :) i would like the army to go the same way as the WDG book with clans rather than marks to be able to field engineer, plague, moulder or standard options of all units. not sure if this will happen but i would find it great.

    demon:
    I agree demon is OP and pretty much negates all the army weaknesses of leadership in 1 model. I would love to see it gone and replaced with a super mutated giant ratman. same model but just a mortal tyrant/wizard rat that is huge so people can still use it. this would require a complete build from the ground up for the entry which i don't think will happen.

    Dread-mills:
    dread-mills are situational OP in my opinion. vs high armour multi-wound they rock (but i did have 2 of them shoot at 3 brazen beasts for 2 turns causing 2 wounds total, then being run down after losing combat - my average is 1 hit per turn per mill with shooting over 12 months). If they get charged by infantry or regen units, they struggle to beat the units to win combat.
    give them back random movement 2D6 as it will hamper their shooting by removing the end of turn pivot to get better positions and out of charge arc and remove the guaranteed range boost by being move and shoot. they get better at zoning chaff with 360 degree charge but i would take a 300+ point dread-mill chasing my 80 point dog away from my battle line all day.

    Jezzails:
    i have 6 jezzails models i play most games as i like the idea of the engineering rat with a huge gun. with the rest of the army shooting being 18" this is one of the few units that i can deploy to threaten war machines from turn 1. take away the leadership of the demon they are dis 5, maybe 7 if a tyrant is in range, there is a good chance of them causing wound from rolling 1's and running away turn 3 or 4 of the game.

    re the comment on 12 jezzails being cheaper than an organ gun and engineer i would disagree here.
    cheapest way to get 12 jezzails is 3 units of 4 at 150 point each - 450 each but here any model lost is a panic test (get rid of the demon this is a huge issue with dis 5). at 2 units of 6 it runs to 460 points. str 6 hitting on 4+ up to 36".

    organ gun is 270 points and engineer is 125 points for 395 total. add in the 50 points for +1 wound on the machine and a guild crafted hand gun for the engineer at 5 pts and it is 450 point total for 2D6*2 str 5 AP3 hitting (equal to str 6 with +1 wound) on 4+ at 30", 3+ at 15" with 360 line of sight and hard target from the engineers entrench rule plus the engineers 3+ accurate handgun hit up to 24".

    EOS have organ gun @ 200 pts with 3D6*2 shots @ 24" range + 125 pts engineer + 10 crossbows @ 135 pts for 460pts dishing out 10 shots str 4 ap1 at 30" hitting on 4+ (due to ready, aim, fire) and 3D6*2 shots str 5 ap 3 hitting at 4+ at 24" or 3+ at 12" wiht 360 line of sight.

    for my money 2 units of 6 jezzails will not win me a game but the other options can decimate units with good rolls from turn 1 removing large chunks of combat blocks.


    pendulum:
    also thanks for pointing out D6+2 grinds i have been playing as D6 for ages :). while the pendulum is 410 points there is also a 155 pts priest on top for a single spell. to make it a lvl 2 wizard or some decent armour or magic weapon it is 750+ points model.

    To get a wound back via pentagram of pain you need to sacrifice 2 other models at least, this is also able to be dispelled so not a guarantee. maybe replace occult with evocation.
    get rid of the aegis and make it a fortitude save (monks should have 6+ too but just an opinion) as it would be better fitting fluff wise for the plague monks.have a look at the EOS altar of battle for 370 points and the buffs it give units in 6" plus the bonus to the prelates prays. have a look at what you can get for 750 pts on this model for comparison.

    These are my opinions is all. i find with the vermin swarm book there are many units that are specialized for specific rolls which makes them seemed over powered. EoS mortars are by most accounts crappy but coming up against 2 with an infantry heavy VS army and they are OP (taking off 20 slaves or Rat at arms from a single shot is not nice).
  • Kanadian wrote:

    apart from the dread mills I think your overreacting IMO.
    Pendilum... well you need something to buff the rather weak rats.
    Deamon is easy target for shooting , and a VC karstein on dragon has a 24"
    Jasiles like shabtie arches on paper great... on the field well not as great.
    Dread Sphinks very situational a few wounds with low save makes him extremely fragile in many situations.
    how u cant not consider that Pandulum is something so much OP srsly? i dont wanna be harsh but rly, i dont even wanna discuss this, i already said before wat it gives to the whole army and plus u can EVEN use a BOLT in CAC and the spell 1 from occultism make this even more OP, every skaven use it on ETC so come on rly maybe this would make u think no???? the Daemon is OP yes cos u cant have basically all ur army with dis 9 + and discipline from ranks so u end up with discipline 10??????????? imo this should be fixed with setting him "not a leader" role. Jezail are OP compared to other shoting trust me range 36" always on 4+ str6 ap4 its too much and if they missfire they MAY take a wound lol...but they got 2 u know so who cares, and dreadmills yes are OP thats it, i already said before why, every skaven is using them guess why, wat u dont consider at all is that skaven have everything they have shooting they have nice CAC phase they have awesome magic phase and even high discipline, basically u are covered in any phase while some army basically dont have magic or shooting. what i mean is that skaven got too many nice unitis that stack perfectly with magic, and some of them are so nice that everyone is basically doing the same list cos u cant rly dont put them into the army cos them being too much powerfull.

    bargo wrote:

    i have been playing VS for 12 months now, below is my rum fueled comments and rant :)

    my idea of VS is a swarm army and love the idea of the engineers and the old engineer warlocks. My goal is to field a 4500 pts army with 200 models on the table :) i would like the army to go the same way as the WDG book with clans rather than marks to be able to field engineer, plague, moulder or standard options of all units. not sure if this will happen but i would find it great.

    demon:
    I agree demon is OP and pretty much negates all the army weaknesses of leadership in 1 model. I would love to see it gone and replaced with a super mutated giant ratman. same model but just a mortal tyrant/wizard rat that is huge so people can still use it. this would require a complete build from the ground up for the entry which i don't think will happen.

    Dread-mills:
    dread-mills are situational OP in my opinion. vs high armour multi-wound they rock (but i did have 2 of them shoot at 3 brazen beasts for 2 turns causing 2 wounds total, then being run down after losing combat - my average is 1 hit per turn per mill with shooting over 12 months). If they get charged by infantry or regen units, they struggle to beat the units to win combat.
    give them back random movement 2D6 as it will hamper their shooting by removing the end of turn pivot to get better positions and out of charge arc and remove the guaranteed range boost by being move and shoot. they get better at zoning chaff with 360 degree charge but i would take a 300+ point dread-mill chasing my 80 point dog away from my battle line all day.

    Jezzails:
    i have 6 jezzails models i play most games as i like the idea of the engineering rat with a huge gun. with the rest of the army shooting being 18" this is one of the few units that i can deploy to threaten war machines from turn 1. take away the leadership of the demon they are dis 5, maybe 7 if a tyrant is in range, there is a good chance of them causing wound from rolling 1's and running away turn 3 or 4 of the game.

    re the comment on 12 jezzails being cheaper than an organ gun and engineer i would disagree here.
    cheapest way to get 12 jezzails is 3 units of 4 at 150 point each - 450 each but here any model lost is a panic test (get rid of the demon this is a huge issue with dis 5). at 2 units of 6 it runs to 460 points. str 6 hitting on 4+ up to 36".

    organ gun is 270 points and engineer is 125 points for 395 total. add in the 50 points for +1 wound on the machine and a guild crafted hand gun for the engineer at 5 pts and it is 450 point total for 2D6*2 str 5 AP3 hitting (equal to str 6 with +1 wound) on 4+ at 30", 3+ at 15" with 360 line of sight and hard target from the engineers entrench rule plus the engineers 3+ accurate handgun hit up to 24".

    EOS have organ gun @ 200 pts with 3D6*2 shots @ 24" range + 125 pts engineer + 10 crossbows @ 135 pts for 460pts dishing out 10 shots str 4 ap1 at 30" hitting on 4+ (due to ready, aim, fire) and 3D6*2 shots str 5 ap 3 hitting at 4+ at 24" or 3+ at 12" wiht 360 line of sight.

    for my money 2 units of 6 jezzails will not win me a game but the other options can decimate units with good rolls from turn 1 removing large chunks of combat blocks.


    pendulum:
    also thanks for pointing out D6+2 grinds i have been playing as D6 for ages :). while the pendulum is 410 points there is also a 155 pts priest on top for a single spell. to make it a lvl 2 wizard or some decent armour or magic weapon it is 750+ points model.
    the main problem is that u dont consider that skaven are covered very well in any phase, magic stacks perfectly with pendulum (spell1 from occultism and the bolt that u can cast in CAC )as i said before is just too amazing to stay as it is right now, very nice also combat phase cos of the discipline that also cant stay as it is cos u end up thanks to daemon with discipline 10??? its just too much for a rat rly, about the organ gun no man 2d6 yes but if dwarfs roll a "6" they shot at -1 to hit and its not that impossible to roll 1 six with 2 D6 and thats all the difference, the gun from the enginer none using it cos it shots at 24", enginer not giving hard target but they give hard cover which is worse cos many things ignore it, and all in all anyways jezail shoot longer then organ gun, cos they shot at 36" on 4+ while organ gun shoots at 30". wat u dont consider is that dwarfs doesnt have a strong magic phase cos they use only buffs with bound spells, while skaven already have a strong magic phase, and from lore dwarfs should have a better shooting phase then rats, and we are here even discussing it. Then once for battle skaven can activate also that thing that gives -1 to hit on shooting attack for 1 full turn, thats amazing. I dont wanna be harsh or something but you guys not cosidering at all that u got many very nice units thats stacks up in way too powerfull with magic and eachother, and as i said before all ur phases in a game are just too awesome.
  • When I think of VS and UD, in my head we should be seeing massive amounts of horde units. In my last match, I played a 5000pt game and had a total of 50 models for UD. The only skeletons I had on the board were the 7 chariots.

    The internal balance for UD is a joke. I get it, we cannot change the units until we get the FAB treatment. So in the meantime, instead of increasing unit prices, why not lower the prices of under-used skeleton units? I won’t bother to ask you to reduce the price of our characters (we desperately need them in order to make our skeleton blocks work).

    Big infantry blocks are disappearing from our tabletops because they cannot compete against other options. Please try to figure out how to make infantry units viable again
  • Fergus wrote:

    Big infantry blocks are disappearing from our tabletops because they cannot compete against other options. Please try to figure out how to make infantry units viable again
    This seems to be the general trend, with faster elements taking over in list building.
    Monstrous stuff tends to be faster and have more power density than the standard troops. Thus most players go for the faster and more mobile option. The relentless banner is a decent band-aid, but I feel that the monstrous stuff in general should not move much faster than standard troops. For example, if the standard infantry is move 4/8, the standard monstrous infantry should be 5/10 and not 6/12 as is the current trend.
  • This kind of argument can be made about every army....

    How about Highborn Elves?
    Why does pretty much every list include these things: Mage with Asfad Scholar, character with Master of Carnreig Tower, Sliver of the Blading Dawn Spear, 2-3 Sea Guard Reapers?

    Because they are the strongest choices in the book(?), because they grant you an advantage over other armies(?), because it's "fun" to play with them(?). Feel free to pick your own answer.

    Both EoS and most Elves are (as you would put it) covered in all phases of the game. Usually with added boni and/or synergetic effects like Orders. Are these armies OP as well?
  • Fergus wrote:

    When I think of VS and UD, in my head we should be seeing massive amounts of horde units. In my last match, I played a 5000pt game and had a total of 50 models for UD. The only skeletons I had on the board were the 7 chariots.

    The internal balance for UD is a joke. I get it, we cannot change the units until we get the FAB treatment. So in the meantime, instead of increasing unit prices, why not lower the prices of under-used skeleton units? I won’t bother to ask you to reduce the price of our characters (we desperately need them in order to make our skeleton blocks work).
    Fully agree

    As I understand it, the proposed Autumn pt changes are along the lines you suggest.
  • @Pigi
    Just flank the pendulum, and he won't grind you anymore.
    And about the synergies between pendulum and magic, you migh be biaised for i don't know which reasons. A few people take the #1 occultism spell, as the +1 aegis or the toxic breath weapon are much stronger. And for the hereditary spell, it cannot be cast in a combat in which the pendulum takes place, so i don't see the issue.

    Dreadmills are an issue as they are pretty good for their price. But most of your other complaints are not relevant, as they look mostly caused by you struggling to deal with those units ingame. Keep your head cool, and think for new strategies.

    And use punctuation, for god's sake !
    ETC 2013 - Team France NPC
    ETC 2015 - Team UN Skaven player
    ETC 2017 - Team Belgium DE player
    ETC 2018 - Team Belgium NPC
    ETC 2019 - Team Belgium NPC
  • Jaina wrote:

    @Pigi
    Just flank the pendulum, and he won't grind you anymore.
    And about the synergies between pendulum and magic, you migh be biaised for i don't know which reasons. A few people take the #1 occultism spell, as the +1 aegis or the toxic breath weapon are much stronger. And for the hereditary spell, it cannot be cast in a combat in which the pendulum takes place, so i don't see the issue.

    Dreadmills are an issue as they are pretty good for their price. But most of your other complaints are not relevant, as they look mostly caused by you struggling to deal with those units ingame. Keep your head cool, and think for new strategies.

    And use punctuation, for god's sake !
    My punctation might be bad. But you are wrong, the H spell can be casted in combat. With the role Callous which the plague patriarch has. Hoping that you liked more my punctation btw.
  • Pigi wrote:

    Jaina wrote:

    @Pigi
    Just flank the pendulum, and he won't grind you anymore.
    And about the synergies between pendulum and magic, you migh be biaised for i don't know which reasons. A few people take the #1 occultism spell, as the +1 aegis or the toxic breath weapon are much stronger. And for the hereditary spell, it cannot be cast in a combat in which the pendulum takes place, so i don't see the issue.

    Dreadmills are an issue as they are pretty good for their price. But most of your other complaints are not relevant, as they look mostly caused by you struggling to deal with those units ingame. Keep your head cool, and think for new strategies.

    And use punctuation, for god's sake !
    My punctation might be bad. But you are wrong, the H spell can be casted in combat. With the role Callous which the plague patriarch has. Hoping that you liked more my punctation btw.
    The H Spell can be cast into a combat following the rules for Callous, but you still can't cast Magic Missiles while the caster is in close combat.
    Unless you are a Magister on a Bell.
    And even the Magister on Bell can't cast the H Spell into his own close combat, since the Bell isn't standard height.
  • Pigi wrote:

    My punctation might be bad. But you are wrong, the H spell can be casted in combat. With the role Callous which the plague patriarch has. Hoping that you liked more my punctation btw.
    Callous allows you to shoot / cast the H spell in combats where there is only friendly standard size models.
    Pendulum is large size, not standard. Thus my assertion.

    You might have been fooled by your last VS oponent. This happens, and happens with any army if you have the wrong oponent.
    But this doesn't (and shouldn't) make the army OP. Playing more often, and with the correct rules, will allow you to take a step back, and see the bigger picture. Honestly, it'll be better for you (and for anyone complaining that X or Y is OP even before trying to figure out a counterplay).

    And yeah, punctuation was much better, thanks a lot :)
    ETC 2013 - Team France NPC
    ETC 2015 - Team UN Skaven player
    ETC 2017 - Team Belgium DE player
    ETC 2018 - Team Belgium NPC
    ETC 2019 - Team Belgium NPC
  • ok my bad about the H spell, i was wrong on that. But lets reset and be realistic then, do you think that VS and UD are balanced with the rest? like compared to KoE, DH, OnG or Dread Elves? dont you think that the Daemon giving his discipline (9) to the whole army isnt abit too much? or jezail being like this? or The dreadmills costing 305 points while grudge buster from DH cost much more and being more bad?
  • Folomo wrote:

    Pigi wrote:

    DREAD SPHINX: 480 pts just too low cost imho for wat it does.
    I am pretty surprised this is here, considering how unpopular the Dread Sphinx is. Based on tournament data, only 1 in 50 UD lists includes a Dreadsphinx.Why did you included this entry?
    Cos in my games i found it a very nice unit, as u can heal itself cos of the attribute. But what did impress me are shabt archers combined with the spell 4 from divination, so reroll to hit on shooting attacks, or with another spell they can get +1 to hit on shooting attacks. And also Chariots that u can rise 1 model (so 3 wounds) or more, depending in how many spell pass.
  • I played VS, and yes some of the points are valid ( double dead mill and the deamon rat )

    For me, the deamon rat should be gone. It does take away the armies weakness, and yes the dreadmill can feel over powered vs some armies. But it can be taken out very easy. I've lost mine more than any other lord option.
    Yet, no one has complained about Toxic Catapults??? For 170pts these are a bargain. They really are, I've made more points back with these than my dreads ever have. Mite be meta, mite be my dreadmill rolls!

    Best way to fix dreadmill, fix lighting cannons and make the dreadmill shoot the closest target. It will stop 2 running around together popping sadness into the mouth of opponents.

    Problem for me is if you take away the toys, the boys left behind cant do zip. Monks without tower are terrible, who is scared of S3 Ap0?? The mage on foot isn't great, like most VS heroes.
    Vermin guard are only good to carry the banner.
    Clan rats been a better option for second tower due to options and more bodies to die. Yet these are core options. Hands down, best core option Giant Rats. Says it all really.

    Take away Plague Disciples from special and be honest what is there???? Hulks are the only scoring option outside of core.
    So what else other than shooting options can a skaven player take???? Meat grinders? Another toy with a problem........

    This is the reason I've started a new project, gone over to the green horde, and I'm loving list building. I have options everywhere.
  • Pigi wrote:

    ok my bad about the H spell, i was wrong on that. But lets reset and be realistic then, do you think that VS and UD are balanced with the rest?
    Yes, and that will be the belief I hold until I see evidence otherwise.


    Pigi wrote:

    dont you think that the Daemon giving his discipline (9) to the whole army isnt abit too much?
    considering the whole army with the exception of a small handful of units can get to ld 10 anyway, no not really. particularly when ld 9/9+ is essential to playing this game. You seem to overlook the downsides of having the demon as the general. It's an easy target to cripple the VS army. The demon dies, the whole armies ld goes in the crapper, they lose their magic phase and are down a whole ton of points. I will agree that it has horrible internal balance with the book.


    Pigi wrote:

    or jezail being like this?
    there is nothing wrong with jezzails, they are unwieldy, suffer cover penatlies, and die to a gentle breeze in CC. Sure, they have 36" range, but good use of terrain, and deployment can take a lot of the punch out of them.


    Pigi wrote:

    r The dreadmills costing 305 points while grudge buster from DH cost much more and being more bad?
    The grudge buster being a bad choice doesn't make the dreadmill OP. This dicsussion has already been had ad nauseum. The dreadmill probably needs a price hike, but it's main advantage is that it counters the current meta extremely well, and people are scared of it.


    Pigi wrote:

    Cos in my games i found it a very nice unit
    a unit being nice doesn't make it OP, not even sure how you (as a dwarf player it seems) would possibly find a model that has no ideal targets to go after in your army OP. it's stupidly expensive for 5A versus dwarves.

    Pigi wrote:

    But what did impress me are shabt archers combined with the spell 4 from divination, so reroll to hit on shooting attacks, or with another spell they can get +1 to hit on shooting attacks
    you should see what those same spells due to the UD catapult, that should scare your dwarves faaaaar more than bow shabti :P


    X-C-Y wrote:

    For me, the deamon rat should be gone. It does take away the armies weakness,
    No it doesn't. It's a perfect example of the VS weakness. They are bad outside the ld bubble. a ld 9 demon general is only good for VS ld tests if they are inside the ld bubble. what it does do is negate the fluffy strength in numbers rule.
    “You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyways.” -Lan Mandragoran, EotW


    Dovie’andi se tovya sagain.
  • Pigi wrote:

    Nicreap wrote:

    Pigi wrote:

    ok my bad about the H spell, i was wrong on that. But lets reset and be realistic then, do you think that VS and UD are balanced with the rest?
    Yes, and that will be the belief I hold until I see evidence otherwise.
    This was already enough for me thanks.
    so you'd rather pull opinions out of thin air rather than wait to see what the data this project has been collecting for a year says? Seems like a foolish choice, but it is yours. I would much rather see what the data says than make decisions based on my emotional reaction to getting my butt handed to me by a list I'm not used to.

    Honestly, the impression I have gotten from you is you aren't interested in actual discussion, you just want people to pat you on the back and to say "no, it's not your fault you lost, you were just playing an OP army"
    “You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyways.” -Lan Mandragoran, EotW


    Dovie’andi se tovya sagain.