Undying Dynasties and The Vermin Swarm being just too much more powerfull then other armys in any phase.

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  • Phosphorus wrote:

    Izomov wrote:

    The exact same can be said for VS shooting. None of it is guaranteed
    Shooting attacks can`t be banned , can`t they ? You may hide from shooting , but that you can do against magic (missle attacks) as well. So, that is not the same.
    By banned, do you mean Scroll of Binding? In that case no. But there are other things that affect shooting, that does not affect magic, such as cover, long range, terrain etc. Spells can also be dispelled, or fail to cast.
  • Vamp87 wrote:

    You must take quite small cavalry units. The spell does an average of 7 hits so against res 3 cavalry with no non-armour defence and 1 wound (best case scenario) you end up with an average of 3.5 cavalryman dead. You can't even take a unit of 3 such cavalry. So realistically, against a 10-man unit cavalry with the best case scenario for toxic your killing 20%-50% of the unit assuming reasonably statistical rolls.
    I also want to point out that plague disciples do have bad matchups. As a VC player, with the armies I take, I'm never ridiculously concerned about them and often break them on CR.
    It varies on the unit. Some are large, some are only 5-man strong. But the problem gets really highlighted when the dice get a bit hot, and you end up losing loads more models. If it was any other sort of attack, this wouldn't be as nasty. Since you get no defense, the number of kills spikes. Not to mention how much cavalry pay per wound compared to infantry.

    Toxic just flat killing even the most heavily armoured unit is very annoying for the player, since they have no interaction other than hiding from the offending unit (not always an option). You pay through the nose for high defense, only for something to just not care and delete it on a successful wound roll. This is more of the problem really, it's not fun, and makes the player that paid for armour feel like crap.

    Let us also not forget that units with Toxic, don't really seem like they are paying for such high AP. A plague Catapult is 170, units of 10 Disciples are about the same.


    You play an army that gets to bring lost troops back. Good for you I guess.

    Lord of the Hobby

    The Great Horde of Chaos <-My hobby blog Tyranno's Ride into the Steppes <-My Makhar hobby/army-list blog

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Tyranno ().

  • Vamp87 wrote:

    Tyranno wrote:

    rolan wrote:

    I was talking about the rules for toxic, as some people wanted to weaken the effect. And any cowboy caught in a toxic breath will tell ou there are more hits possible than only one
    I honestly forgot about that spell. Because so often people try to wipe out 50%-100% of a cavalry unit with it each turn.
    You must take quite small cavalry units. The spell does an average of 7 hits so against res 3 cavalry with no non-armour defence and 1 wound (best case scenario) you end up with an average of 3.5 cavalryman dead. You can't even take a unit of 3 such cavalry. So realistically, against a 10-man unit cavalry with the best case scenario for toxic your killing 20%-50% of the unit assuming reasonably statistical rolls.
    I also want to point out that plague disciples do have bad matchups. As a VC player, with the armies I take, I'm never ridiculously concerned about them and often break them on CR.
    could you give us an example? Which units are you using?
    Veteran of the Chaff Wars
  • Tyranno wrote:

    Vamp87 wrote:

    You must take quite small cavalry units. The spell does an average of 7 hits so against res 3 cavalry with no non-armour defence and 1 wound (best case scenario) you end up with an average of 3.5 cavalryman dead. You can't even take a unit of 3 such cavalry. So realistically, against a 10-man unit cavalry with the best case scenario for toxic your killing 20%-50% of the unit assuming reasonably statistical rolls.
    I also want to point out that plague disciples do have bad matchups. As a VC player, with the armies I take, I'm never ridiculously concerned about them and often break them on CR.
    It varies on the unit. Some are large, some are only 5-man strong. But the problem gets really highlighted when the dice get a bit hot, and you end up losing loads more models. If it was any other sort of attack, this wouldn't be as nasty. Since you get no defense, the number of kills spikes. Not to mention how much cavalry pay per wound compared to infantry.
    Toxic just flat killing even the most heavily armoured unit is very annoying for the player, since they have no interaction other than hiding from the offending unit (not always an option). You pay through the nose for high defense, only for something to just not care and delete it on a successful wound roll. This is more of the problem really, it's not fun, and makes the player that paid for armour feel like crap.

    Let us also not forget that units with Toxic, don't really seem like they are paying for such high AP. A plague Catapult is 170, units of 10 Disciples are about the same.


    You play an army that gets to bring lost troops back. Good for you I guess.

    Mathematically, there's no difference between "the Toxic Catapult rolled higher than usual and got more kills" and "my opponent blew all their armour saves vs. my armour-allowing Catapult and took more casualties". The same for "my opponent rolled more wounds and I only saved the statistically average amount of them".

    Psychologically, the latter two "feel" more about your own bad luck and is, I suspect, easier to shrug off.

    You can't really hide from a normal catapult either - but getting to roll dice makes you feel better and more in control.


    That's not really about price, or the actual game impact of the unit.

    Background Team

  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Mathematically, there's no difference between "the Toxic Catapult rolled higher than usual and got more kills" and "my opponent blew all their armour saves vs. my armour-allowing Catapult and took more casualties". The same for "my opponent rolled more wounds and I only saved the statistically average amount of them".

    Psychologically, the latter two "feel" more about your own bad luck and is, I suspect, easier to shrug off.

    You can't really hide from a normal catapult either - but getting to roll dice makes you feel better and more in control.


    That's not really about price, or the actual game impact of the unit.
    Lack of control over a situation is a massive source of irritation for people. So I personally would avoid designing things that work like that.


    Also, lets not forget that the Plague Catapult ignores half of the "partial shot" due to the daft "always S3" part of toxic attacks. So plague Catapults ignore armour, and only marginally suffer from missing the first shot, but hitting with the re-roll.
    That jacks up their reliability a lot, also meaning that cavalry just have to hide from them, because the chance of a hit that could easily wipe out half to a third of the unit is way too high a risk.

    Lord of the Hobby

    The Great Horde of Chaos <-My hobby blog Tyranno's Ride into the Steppes <-My Makhar hobby/army-list blog
  • Izomov wrote:

    Phosphorus wrote:

    Izomov wrote:

    The exact same can be said for VS shooting. None of it is guaranteed
    Shooting attacks can`t be banned , can`t they ? You may hide from shooting , but that you can do against magic (missle attacks) as well. So, that is not the same.
    By banned, do you mean Scroll of Binding? In that case no. But there are other things that affect shooting, that does not affect magic, such as cover, long range, terrain etc. Spells can also be dispelled, or fail to cast.
    stupid me...I meant dispelled of cause :) ...whatever, while you might do something active vs. magic , you can`t do the same vs. shooting. So, I deem shooting much more reliable.
    Veteran of the Chaff Wars
  • The thing is, hiding from them is worse than not, because unless you're hiding your entire army, you're crippling yourself to The Fear.

    They're going to fire. Unless they have no good targets, they're going to be doing reasonable damage. You basically just have to suck that up unless you have a way to kill the war machine while hiding your entire army. Hiding your cavalry to make them kill your infantry instead just means you're fighting down your cavalry AND they're shooting off your infantry.

    Just toughing it out and accepting that you'll lose stuff to shooting is often the winning move; I've personally punted games trying to complete elaborate sweeping maneuvers to avoid losing stuff to ranged damage that, in retrospect, should have been about me just storming the guns directly (not least because they just shot something else).

    Sure. A couple of plagueapults can pick off more than their cost in heavy cavalry. They can do it in infantry, too. But that doesn't matter. Games aren't won on value alone. If the plagueapults kill three times their worth in troops, but you roll their center and push out to collect the 'pults, you still win.



    Agreed that it's massively irritating. As I said, psychological difference; a plagueapult doing well feels worse than a normal catapult doing equally well. But that's not a reason to adjust points, that's a reason to adjust designs.

    Background Team

  • I agree that target saturation through rushing is often the best answer in that situation. But you better have a way to get rid of them before they fire a second shot, or the majority of an expensive cavalry unit can easily go down the drain.

    It's one of the reasons I always go pyro. I NEED to burn those things into oblivion.

    And I certainly agree they do it to infantry as well, possibly worse due to their low movement. (I literally stopped playing Immortals, partly because of Plague Catapults)

    games may not be won on pure value, but if a catapult kills several times its worth, it probably hasn't done a bad job individually. Hell, my biggest gripe with them is that they make my shock units un-viable in combat, meaning I struggle to deal with other VS stuff if they get lucky.


    Well right now no design can be touched, so a nerf is what would be called for.

    Lord of the Hobby

    The Great Horde of Chaos <-My hobby blog Tyranno's Ride into the Steppes <-My Makhar hobby/army-list blog
  • Kimara_Online wrote:

    If balance between vs and koe is so bad, what if, KoE
    could pray for 5++ aegis or 3++ aegis against toxic

    Now suddenly vermin players have to fear KoE, and fluff vice it makes sence they would get hold of antidote, if they have been on the losing side of a war with vermins for the last 3 years
    There was a time KoE had the option for a 5+ ward against toxic (and DT's) and it was generally considered rubbish. I never did understand that line of reasoning, but it was the general concensus.
    “You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyways.” -Lan Mandragoran, EotW


    Dovie’andi se tovya sagain.
  • Nicreap wrote:

    Kimara_Online wrote:

    If balance between vs and koe is so bad, what if, KoE
    could pray for 5++ aegis or 3++ aegis against toxic

    Now suddenly vermin players have to fear KoE, and fluff vice it makes sence they would get hold of antidote, if they have been on the losing side of a war with vermins for the last 3 years
    There was a time KoE had the option for a 5+ ward against toxic (and DT's) and it was generally considered rubbish. I never did understand that line of reasoning, but it was the general concensus.
    cause a 5+ aegis won`t do much more then a 6+ aegis...
    12 toxic hits vs. 12 Knights = 5 kills with 6+ and 4 kills with 5+ aegis. ...that one knight won`t save the day ...
    Veteran of the Chaff Wars
  • Phosphorus wrote:

    Nicreap wrote:

    Kimara_Online wrote:

    If balance between vs and koe is so bad, what if, KoE
    could pray for 5++ aegis or 3++ aegis against toxic

    Now suddenly vermin players have to fear KoE, and fluff vice it makes sence they would get hold of antidote, if they have been on the losing side of a war with vermins for the last 3 years
    There was a time KoE had the option for a 5+ ward against toxic (and DT's) and it was generally considered rubbish. I never did understand that line of reasoning, but it was the general concensus.
    cause a 5+ aegis won`t do much more then a 6+ aegis...12 toxic hits vs. 12 Knights = 5 kills with 6+ and 4 kills with 5+ aegis. ...that one knight won`t save the day ...
    If all you are taking is 12 toxic hits in a single game then what are you complaining about? But we all know it's not catapult hit you face in a game, but multiple toxic hits across multiple turns, so that increased save save has a cumulative effect on how many models are still standing at the end of the game.

    The current ward for S5+ does even less to keep knights from losing to things which negate their armor, at least the alternate version made the ward better in the specific cases where the armor save was being undermined.

    But you also think pyromancy is a bad way to deal with to deal with units like disciples, so I doubt I will convince you. (shrug)
    “You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyways.” -Lan Mandragoran, EotW


    Dovie’andi se tovya sagain.
  • Phosphorus wrote:

    cause a 5+ aegis won`t do much more then a 6+ aegis...
    12 toxic hits vs. 12 Knights = 5 kills with 6+ and 4 kills with 5+ aegis. ...that one knight won`t save the day ...
    It's still a 20% reduction in casualties on average. It also means you're nearly 5 times as likely to get through without taking a single wound (assuming they hit in the first place). Is that really something to sneeze at?

    Nicreap wrote:

    If all you are taking is 12 toxic hits in a single game then what are you complaining about?
    They're saying a unit of 12 knights in lance formation (3x4) gets hit with a plague catapult, which has Area Attack (4x4), which means a direct hit hits all the models (ie 12 toxic hits). Even a partial hit is 9 toxic hits.

    -----

    Actually hang on, let me set up a chart:

















    There. So the number of casualties your knights will take when the swarm player says he's targeting you is in black currently. If there was a 5+ ward save against Toxic, it would be the one in goldenrod.
    This is all done assuming you're in short range, too, since the plague catapult doesn't have accurate.
  • trulyelse wrote:

    They're saying a unit of 12 knights in lance formation (3x4) gets hit with a plague catapult, which has Area Attack (4x4), which means a direct hit hits all the models (ie 12 toxic hits). Even a partial hit is 9 toxic hits.
    I know, but saying it's bad because it saves one knight from 1 catapult hit ignores the fact that this game lasts longer than 1 turn, and that there is possibly multiple sources of toxic hits on the battle field. So the save doesn't save just 1 knight total, it saves multiple knights across multiple turns.
    “You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyways.” -Lan Mandragoran, EotW


    Dovie’andi se tovya sagain.
  • Nicreap wrote:

    Phosphorus wrote:

    Nicreap wrote:

    Kimara_Online wrote:

    If balance between vs and koe is so bad, what if, KoE
    could pray for 5++ aegis or 3++ aegis against toxic

    Now suddenly vermin players have to fear KoE, and fluff vice it makes sence they would get hold of antidote, if they have been on the losing side of a war with vermins for the last 3 years
    There was a time KoE had the option for a 5+ ward against toxic (and DT's) and it was generally considered rubbish. I never did understand that line of reasoning, but it was the general concensus.
    cause a 5+ aegis won`t do much more then a 6+ aegis...12 toxic hits vs. 12 Knights = 5 kills with 6+ and 4 kills with 5+ aegis. ...that one knight won`t save the day ...
    If all you are taking is 12 toxic hits in a single game then what are you complaining about? But we all know it's not catapult hit you face in a game, but multiple toxic hits across multiple turns, so that increased save save has a cumulative effect on how many models are still standing at the end of the game.
    The current ward for S5+ does even less to keep knights from losing to things which negate their armor, at least the alternate version made the ward better in the specific cases where the armor save was being undermined.

    But you also think pyromancy is a bad way to deal with to deal with units like disciples, so I doubt I will convince you. (shrug)
    you fail to convince me because of false assumptions/understanding of my arguments..e,g, I never said that I think that pyromancy is a bad way to deal with disciples ...quite the opposite.
    Veteran of the Chaff Wars
  • Nicreap wrote:

    trulyelse wrote:

    They're saying a unit of 12 knights in lance formation (3x4) gets hit with a plague catapult, which has Area Attack (4x4), which means a direct hit hits all the models (ie 12 toxic hits). Even a partial hit is 9 toxic hits.
    I know, but saying it's bad because it saves one knight from 1 catapult hit ignores the fact that this game lasts longer than 1 turn, and that there is possibly multiple sources of toxic hits on the battle field. So the save doesn't save just 1 knight total, it saves multiple knights across multiple turns.
    I was not speaking about the catapults , I was refering to the disciples,.
    The point is, that you WILL lose a bunch of expensive knights BECAUSE of auto-hits on agi 10 ....also every other unit in cc will suffer first those auto-hits ...AND then those str. 5 hits with hatred and battle focus. Even units which seem to be very good vs. them will have to suffer a big deal of damage
    Veteran of the Chaff Wars
  • You should only be getting hit by 10 toxic attacks from the plague disciples if you're in lance formation ... a knight unit has a front face of 75 mm which can at most be aligned to 4 of the rats' 20 mm bases, plus one diagonal (the other diagonal is 5 mm too far away).

    Unless I don't know what I'm talking about and totally misunderstood core mechanics of the game, which is actually a possibility.
  • trulyelse wrote:

    You should only be getting hit by 10 toxic attacks from the plague disciples if you're in lance formation ... a knight unit has a front face of 75 mm which can at most be aligned to 4 of the rats' 20 mm bases, plus one diagonal (the other diagonal is 5 mm too far away).

    Unless I don't know what I'm talking about and totally misunderstood core mechanics of the game, which is actually a possibility.
    And I was refering here to all heavy cav. which normaly runs in a five wide formation...but also concerns any other units who run in a 5 )and more) wide formation.
    Veteran of the Chaff Wars
  • I feel like the VS complaint is something like:

    VD - good leadership
    Pendulum - stubborn
    Catapult - Toxic mechanic being RPS and cheap
    PD - toxic mechanic being RPS

    Good Leadership: VS have always had good leadership when combined with ranks. This hasn’t changed. What has changed is that investing 800+ points in a fragile single model can now allow us to also operate our units with fewer ranks more effectively. If we were to reduce the VD leadership to 9 or 8 then we would have to see either a significant points reduction for VD or a boost in how tanky the model is.

    Stubborn Pendulum: Agree. I would expect to have Bodyguard here as well to avoid abuse but that goes contrary to fluff. It’s not OP for the points imo.

    Toxic Mechanic - not likely to change any time soon. LAB may see a change in prevalence but that’s off topic. There are a large number of spells available across all paths which can neuter these attacks either through adding Res, 5++, Summer Growth, to-Hit modifiers, etc and a variety of highly effective magic missiles. Active defense using chaff or single models is also effective. NB: This will always be a difficult matchup for KoE. Just as there are other RPS army combinations out there.

    I don’t see anything here which can’t be fixed with minor points adjustments (ie better internal balance) or that won’t change with a move in the meta. Remember that VS got paired-out in ETC so there will be a change in reaction to that alone.
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef