Undying Dynasties and The Vermin Swarm being just too much more powerfull then other armys in any phase.

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  • DanT wrote:

    Phosphorus wrote:

    Interessting...but if that is true (to some extent...what happened exactly? Why is UD now Top and HE Flop ?Were are the "big" changes in the certain army lists which made the difference? And HE were indeed on the Top in 8th . ed.?
    How long have you got?Some of it is obvious, some of it subtle...

    T9a tiers have floated around quite a bit though, so your question doesn't even really make much sense, as it implies a fairly simple process from legacy to now. There are some marked differences even just to 12 months ago.the ranking now

    The tiers are close enough that it would be quite easy to screw everything up, and it doesn't take much to flip things around quite a lot.

    In 1.3 EoS were bottom. In 1.0 they were near the top. In 8th they were middle of the pack, maybe a bit above middle. Last September they were middle, now they are lower middle.

    Some of it is meta.
    Some of it is people being slow to adjust.
    Some of it is just cumulative small changes in a system with tight tiers.
    Some of it is sociological even.
    maybe there is a misunderstanding..I was asking about 8th. ed. (ranking) and the ranking now (current one)...and not about Version 1.0. or 1.3. And the floating between isn´t of interest here. And it might be of no interest to you, but I do find it interesting what people think what caused this changes in ranking and to discuss them.
    Starting point was my (wild) guess (beside the "bad guys are stronger -...idea :) )that the current Ranking could be (at least in part....see DE which were clearly a Top Tier army in 8th. ed,) grounded on the former Army books of 8th. ed. , that is: if an army was strong /top tier there, it "started"with an "advantage" (reluctance to "weaken" them ..and the other way around) .
    Of cause I don´t believe that it is that simple (see De and He or UD on the other side). But again, I find it interessting what might have caused that...and as such, @Palmu s answer was interesting to me).
    Veteran of the Chaff Wars
  • Klexe wrote:

    I come purley from a gernic point of view and just ask your grandpa if undead agyptian skelltons are evil or good in his opinion

    Ogre are more neutral as they only live to eat. Yeah they would eat you but give them food and beer and they are mostly harmless from a gernic point of view.

    That is just my opinion and nothing else. It still doesnt matter that there are way more bad armies then good armies and no good army is really the best at anything... always bad

    Ask your grandpa if Ogres are good guys and I'd bet on "no".

    Here, the Wikipedia definition: "An ogre (feminine: ogress) is a legendary monster usually depicted as a large, hideous, man-like being that eats ordinary human beings, especially infants and children. Ogres frequently feature in mythology, folklore, and fiction throughout the world."


    But sure. If you group it as "DH, EoS, KoE, HBE and maybe SE are the good guy races" (based on them being the classic demihumans, and Dread Elves sounding pretty evil), that probably passes the Grandpa test.

    It's also 1/3rd of the races, and we can't change who passes or fails the Grandpa test.

    But it's plausible for one of them to end up bobbing up on top with the right buffs. KoE and DH have... problematic... designs, but EoS, HBE and SE have good tools such that I would assume pricing could buoy them to the top.

    Background Team

  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Kanadian wrote:

    WhammeWhamme wrote:

    What do you *want* to play with?
    With UD I would love to play skeletons. In KoE knights... In VC Black knights. I dont rely play the other armies I won... as well I just dont for basing reasons.
    Mmmm. UD basic skeletons definitely do suck compared to everything else. Not sure what the issue is with KoE Knights and VC Barrow Knights - in particular, I was personally very tempted by the list DanT came up with for VC;

    Characters: 1800 points of two Independent Vampire Counts (lots of builds available, make sure you have an Occultism master)
    Core: 4x2 Bat Swarms, 1xGhouls (filling up the rest of your core points)
    Special: 1x15 Barrow Knights, FC
    Swift Death: 2x6 Vampire Knights, Musicians

    (I was *this* close to getting more bat swarms and taking it to the event this weekend)

    and I normally always field 2x5 Barrow Knights (Musician, Champion) in "normal" lists - the dart sized units are cost efficient threats.
    Come now. We all know the 170 point darts are okay (even though I think Spectral Hunters are way better for 20 points more). The issue is 48 points for a model that is not autonomous, are relatively poor fighters and is a real liability for a Vampire to hide in because in most CC he has to make up for the knights usually receiving more damage than they can dish out.

    DanTs list is 2 Vampire Lord in a 700 points unit... and it's more of a bunker than an actual fighty unit
  • The fifteen guys hit comparably to the Vampire Knights, and better for murdering characters. And it's not a bunker - it's a deathstar. Deployed 6 wide (fine even vs. narrow infantry) it's deep enough to get big flanks and murderous enough to kill a lot of things. Four big threats and two characters who can cowboy it up at a moment's notice, plus quad chaff, is really spicy.

    And they're not poor fighters. Lances with S4 AP1 is still high quality, and even off the charge Lethal Strike is a good threat. Two of them are roughly the price of a Vampire Knight, and of comparable utility - both are 2 HP, 2 Attacks (the Barrow Knight attacks from the second rank), the VK is +1 S and AP and +2 OS, but that's offset by a better rezzing rate, Lethal Strike and the MW (it does legit make them a threat to bunkered characters). Plus Ghost Step and 8/16 movement is neat (particularly in cavalry heavy lists - I've often deployed my Barrow Knights in forests and what-not that would otherwise be annoying.)

    Like, compare:

    615 6 Vampire Knights, Full Command, Stalker's Standard (a unit I have personally fielded, FTR - I value Strider on cavalry fairly highly)
    656 12 Barrow Knights, Full Command, Black Standard of Zagvozd

    VK are a bit cheaper there, but same accuracy, same attack density, S6 AP3 is usually just as good as S7 AP4, and the bigger unit is a safer bunker and can break ranks on the flank charge.

    And you can pass out the attack bonus from the banner to other units, which can be useful if the VK's go in solo.

    OK, also bigger footprint, but you can't have everything. I think Barrow Knights might not be the *best* thing you can do in VC, but I think they're a very solid pick. Maybe a little overpriced, but it's usually okay to play down a few points if you really love a unit.


    And on darts: Spectral Hunters are pretty good, but they make your list vulnerable to magic missiles. Barrow Knights laugh at random damage spells - you just snap off a cheap rez and they're back to full.

    Background Team

  • Eldan wrote:

    Klexe wrote:

    read his text exactly plz

    he marked it even with:

    what neutral bystanders would call 'evil/bad guys' and the traditional 'goodies


    Good:
    High elves
    KoE
    EoS
    DH

    Neutral
    OK
    SA
    We (can also be good)

    EviL
    VS
    UD
    VC
    DE
    WDG
    DL
    ID
    Yes, I saw that part. What, exactly, did the VS do that is evil? And how is the Sagarikan Raj defensible as good?
    They are responsible with Wotg of AoS, the most evil tragedy that we faced in the last 10 years.
  • Julian the apostate wrote:

    Eldan wrote:

    Klexe wrote:

    read his text exactly plz

    he marked it even with:

    what neutral bystanders would call 'evil/bad guys' and the traditional 'goodies


    Good:
    High elves
    KoE
    EoS
    DH

    Neutral
    OK
    SA
    We (can also be good)

    EviL
    VS
    UD
    VC
    DE
    WDG
    DL
    ID
    Yes, I saw that part. What, exactly, did the VS do that is evil? And how is the Sagarikan Raj defensible as good?
    They are responsible with Wotg of AoS, the most evil tragedy that we faced in the last 10 years.
    Lies. All lies. We just wanted to get the space program going by starting a lunar mission for the advantage of everyone on the planet.
    A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

    MAKE THE SWARM COWARDLY AGAIN!
    WE DEMAND TERRIBLE LEADERSHIP!
    DOWN WITH COMPETENT GENERALS!
  • Eisenhans wrote:

    Lagerlof wrote:

    We should base everything we do from now on on the "Grandpa test".

    :goldmen:
    In that case you're grandpa at our tournaments, "I don't know let's ask Lagerlof"
    Congrats to your new nick "Farfar" :P
    Is granddad OK with us derailing the thread?

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  • I'm not sure my grandpa even knows what elves are. They aren't local mythology. He surely knows what dwarves are, though. Small, angry masters of illusions and curses. Also extremely cowardly.

    So I propose that by the grandfather test, we remove the elven armies and make dwarves an army of skirmish spellcasters :P
    A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

    MAKE THE SWARM COWARDLY AGAIN!
    WE DEMAND TERRIBLE LEADERSHIP!
    DOWN WITH COMPETENT GENERALS!
  • Phosphorus wrote:

    maybe there is a misunderstanding..I was asking about 8th. ed. (ranking) and the ranking now (current one)...and not about Version 1.0. or 1.3. And the floating between isn´t of interest here. And it might be of no interest to you, but I do find it interesting what people think what caused this changes in ranking and to discuss them.

    Starting point was my (wild) guess (beside the "bad guys are stronger -...idea :) )that the current Ranking could be (at least in part....see DE which were clearly a Top Tier army in 8th. ed,) grounded on the former Army books of 8th. ed. , that is: if an army was strong /top tier there, it "started"with an "advantage" (reluctance to "weaken" them ..and the other way around) .
    But the fluctuations are directly relevant to answering this question... :/ :S ?(

    Because if the tiers fluctuate, then it isn't unreasonable to have a moment in time that is more similar to 8th ed tiers (assuming that this is true, I am unconvinced in detail but that is irrelevant to this point) purely by chance.
    Honestly, humans love looking for patterns... that is why we have statistics, because humans are naturally terrible with overinterpreting patterns, data, correlation etc :P

    Wesser wrote:

    DanTs list is 2 Vampire Lord in a 700 points unit... and it's more of a bunker than an actual fighty unit
    No way.
    I would ask you to read what I wrote about the list rather than putting words in my mouth.
    It is absolutely a fighting unit.
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

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  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    And they're not poor fighters. Lances with S4 AP1 is still high quality, and even off the charge Lethal Strike is a good threat. Two of them are roughly the price of a Vampire Knight, and of comparable utility - both are 2 HP, 2 Attacks (the Barrow Knight attacks from the second rank), the VK is +1 S and AP and +2 OS, but that's offset by a better rezzing rate, Lethal Strike and the MW (it does legit make them a threat to bunkered characters). Plus Ghost Step and 8/16 movement is neat (particularly in cavalry heavy lists - I've often deployed my Barrow Knights in forests and what-not that would otherwise be annoying.)

    Like, compare:

    615 6 Vampire Knights, Full Command, Stalker's Standard (a unit I have personally fielded, FTR - I value Strider on cavalry fairly highly)
    656 12 Barrow Knights, Full Command, Black Standard of Zagvozd

    VK are a bit cheaper there, but same accuracy, same attack density, S6 AP3 is usually just as good as S7 AP4, and the bigger unit is a safer bunker and can break ranks on the flank charge.
    I soooo agree with this.

    I have been playing around with UD Barrow Legion and 18 Fig UD Cavalry Units, so lets add in the comparison.

    18 x UD Cavalry, LANCE, Lgt Arm, Sh, FCG, Rending Banner, 467 pts, Deployed 6 x 3.

    So WS 3, Stgh 5, AP 3 on Charge, not great but still handy.
    But add in Undying Will....Now
    WS 5, Stgh 5, AP 3, better but still not there.
    Add in Preception of Stgh or Whispers of the Veil, I have both.
    Now, WS 5, Stgh 6, AP 4 v T4 or
    WS 5, Stgh, 5, AP 3 v T3.

    Yes you have to go with a staggered charge, to concentrate magic, but as unit has Vanguard, can easily be in charge range turn 1. Also with the extra rank can actually engage some targets from front.

    Have surprised some players with this set up.
  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    The fifteen guys hit comparably to the Vampire Knights, and better for murdering characters. And it's not a bunker - it's a deathstar. Deployed 6 wide (fine even vs. narrow infantry) it's deep enough to get big flanks and murderous enough to kill a lot of things. Four big threats and two characters who can cowboy it up at a moment's notice, plus quad chaff, is really spicy.

    And they're not poor fighters. Lances with S4 AP1 is still high quality, and even off the charge Lethal Strike is a good threat. Two of them are roughly the price of a Vampire Knight, and of comparable utility - both are 2 HP, 2 Attacks (the Barrow Knight attacks from the second rank), the VK is +1 S and AP and +2 OS, but that's offset by a better rezzing rate, Lethal Strike and the MW (it does legit make them a threat to bunkered characters). Plus Ghost Step and 8/16 movement is neat (particularly in cavalry heavy lists - I've often deployed my Barrow Knights in forests and what-not that would otherwise be annoying.)

    Like, compare:

    615 6 Vampire Knights, Full Command, Stalker's Standard (a unit I have personally fielded, FTR - I value Strider on cavalry fairly highly)
    656 12 Barrow Knights, Full Command, Black Standard of Zagvozd

    VK are a bit cheaper there, but same accuracy, same attack density, S6 AP3 is usually just as good as S7 AP4, and the bigger unit is a safer bunker and can break ranks on the flank charge.

    And you can pass out the attack bonus from the banner to other units, which can be useful if the VK's go in solo.

    OK, also bigger footprint, but you can't have everything. I think Barrow Knights might not be the *best* thing you can do in VC, but I think they're a very solid pick. Maybe a little overpriced, but it's usually okay to play down a few points if you really love a unit.


    And on darts: Spectral Hunters are pretty good, but they make your list vulnerable to magic missiles. Barrow Knights laugh at random damage spells - you just snap off a cheap rez and they're back to full.
    The factors you forget are OWS/DWS/AGI

    1. OWS - Means Barrow Knights never hit on better than 4+. Banner of Zagvozd on average add 2 hits assuming the full unit gets to strike, but in either case the unit can't afford a turn of failure because..

    2. DWS - At DWS 3 Barrow Knights are nearly always hit on 3+ or 2+. Sure 2+AS and Res4 is something, but even a few guys killed means CR that their offensive output struggle to make up for

    3. AGI - Even with charging best case is often strike simultaneously whereas the VK almost always strike first. This is kind of a big deal as each casualty is one attack less from an already small pool

    In short considering it's deathstar status the chances are that the Barrow Knights will receive better than they can give against most units. Maybe the Vampires can make up the difference, but if they can't (or can't fast enough before other units charge) then the Barrows are a crumble-trap

    Ghost Step (if you can be clever with that) is the only selling point they really have, and the only thing that keeps them from being the worst cavalry in the game

    DanT wrote:

    Phosphorus wrote:

    maybe there is a misunderstanding..I was asking about 8th. ed. (ranking) and the ranking now (current one)...and not about Version 1.0. or 1.3. And the floating between isn´t of interest here. And it might be of no interest to you, but I do find it interesting what people think what caused this changes in ranking and to discuss them.

    Starting point was my (wild) guess (beside the "bad guys are stronger -...idea :) )that the current Ranking could be (at least in part....see DE which were clearly a Top Tier army in 8th. ed,) grounded on the former Army books of 8th. ed. , that is: if an army was strong /top tier there, it "started"with an "advantage" (reluctance to "weaken" them ..and the other way around) .
    But the fluctuations are directly relevant to answering this question... :/ :S ?(

    Because if the tiers fluctuate, then it isn't unreasonable to have a moment in time that is more similar to 8th ed tiers (assuming that this is true, I am unconvinced in detail but that is irrelevant to this point) purely by chance.
    Honestly, humans love looking for patterns... that is why we have statistics, because humans are naturally terrible with overinterpreting patterns, data, correlation etc :P

    Wesser wrote:

    DanTs list is 2 Vampire Lord in a 700 points unit... and it's more of a bunker than an actual fighty unit
    No way.I would ask you to read what I wrote about the list rather than putting words in my mouth.
    It is absolutely a fighting unit.
    I'll reword. I consider it a bunker which can potentially fight
  • If you want lol Cavalry builds.

    KoE
    5 paladins one with piety and one with daring.
    14 Questing knights with banner of speed 5 wide
    Damsel with unicorn
    Avg charge range vs fear? 21 inch lul
    In charge 30 av s6 ap3
    Grind 25 av s6 ap3
    All have 2+/5++ or higher Ws/R if you target characters.... 3 ranks until you loose 3 models...
    Strider forest and magical attacks :)


    I always wanted to try this but never did :)

    Worst case you have 5 cowboys lol
    Edit: weak cowboys.. More like chaff

                    

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  • Piety doesn't apply on other characters though. So close!
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves
  • Duke Niemar wrote:

    Piety doesn't apply on other characters though. So close!
    Well yeah the "all" was wrong. I meant rank and file. That why i wrote "or higher WS/R" if you target chars

                    

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  • bargo wrote:

    Lagerlof wrote:

    We should base everything we do from now on on the "Grandpa test".

    :goldmen:
    what about the 4 year old test. my daughter thinks ogres are great and nice - she only knows them from my army and Shrek :)rats are cool too, my other army.
    anything with dragons is good - WDG, HBE, DE, Empire.
    pretty sure beastmen and lizards are icky
    Are rats evil?

    Depends on if you are a chef in a disney movie or the europeean population in the 14th century.

    My rats personally prefer to cook, the remains of a village after spreading a Plague there.
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