Undying Dynasties and The Vermin Swarm being just too much more powerfull then other armys in any phase.

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  • Undying Dynasties and The Vermin Swarm being just too much more powerfull then other armys in any phase.

    Hi there, im not usually posting in here, i just wanna report something that for me its totally unbalanced and not make any kind of sense with the rest of the game, these 2 Army Undying Dynasties and The Vermin Swarm are just too much ahead imho compared to rest of the armys:
    The Vermin Swarm have some units that imho should be fixed:
    THE DREADMILL: it only costs 305 pts and its toatally OP cos it can move shot with no penalties always on 4+, 3 shots D3 wounds each strenght 5 ap 10, its range is 26 with the movement and also when it get in CAC same thing totally insane, guess why there are 2 of them in every list in etc?
    THE PLAGUE PENDULUM: costs only 410 pts for Frenzy, Fearless,Stubborn,Aegis (4+),Battle Focus, Hatred,Grind Attacks(D6+2),5 wounds, R5?????? just too low points for wat it gives to the army imho, first of all this unit combined with "Pentragon of Pain"(spell 1 from occultism) which u recover 1 HP if the spell is sucessfully casted, and also spell number 4 from occultism Breath of Corruption if sucessfully casted on the caster on the pendulum make this unit even more nice.
    VERMIN DAEMON: ok its cost alot of points thats true but making this general means that it gives his discipline at 18" its just too much like this all skaven most likely got 9 or 10 discipline, depends on their ranks if im not wrong..., are they dwarfs or skaven btw? would be great if it could have the role "not a leader" this would make more sense.
    JEZAIL: Range 36", Shots 1, Str 6, AP 4, Unwieldy, Magical Attacks, Accurate.If rolling a natural ‘1’ to hit, the bearer suffers 1 hit with Toxic Attacks.????????? like 12 of these cost less then a organ gun+engineer and they shoots longer and with more strenght and arp? and lol if they roll 1 to hit they MAYBE take a wound on 4+, ah ye and u know they got 2 wounds each so who cares at some point.

    these are the units that did impress me, and guess why all these units listed above are present in most likely every single list that i see around.
    Undying Dynasties:

    SHABTI ARCHERS: this unit can be tremendous nice shooting at 36" and with the "Great Archer Bow" they can also move and shoot, so its 42" in total, on 5+ still and combined with spell number 4 from divination (the Star Allign) and they can also get +1hit on shooting attacks with some spell which i dont remember the name. This unit is already too cool without any buff, and buffs make this unit just too much strong... i would say at least reduce the range on the "Great Archer Bow". They are better then a organ gun+engineer cos ppl use like 16 of them..... and even in CAC they are quite fine.
    DEATH IS ONLY THE BEGINNING: this H spell on this army is just to solid upgrade for them, it must be changed or something. On each spell that is casted they can rise up to 1 chariot for example (so 3 wounds), i think its abit too much...

    im sorry to bother you but all these things together in 1 army is a bit too much i think, the problem is them being just too good in every phase, in CAC, in magic phase, and on shooting... there are armys in the book that got barely a shooting phase or a magic phase.

    The post was edited 4 times, last by Pigi ().

  • I think like most armies there are some auto includes that are just too good not too take.(Dreadmill, steam tank, feral orcs...etc)

    Its interesting you think the dread sphinx is Op, its barely taken, and imo should actually see a point drop.

    Where i do agree is that dreadmill is OP. I think an easy fix might be make it 0-1 then it becomes more manageable. I think inceeasing the cost by let's say 50pts, you would still see double dreadmills roaming around.

    I general I dont think VS and UD are over powered, i think the problem is playing the same list over and over agian. The game starts to loses its flavour alittle and starts getting a WHFB 8th edition kinda feel too it.
  • I'm very happy a constructive and well argumented feedback was written up.

    I do have the feeling the OP has a lot of experience against both armies and knows what he is talking about.

    Especially about the Dread sphinx! Let's not forget it has the potential of doing up to 15 wounds against any type of unit that has MW!!
    Pharaoh's Unite!

    ETC Team Belgium 2018 - Undying Dynasties
    ETC Team Belgium 2019 - Undying Dynasties
  • IHDarklord wrote:

    I'm very happy a constructive and well argumented feedback was written up.

    I do have the feeling the OP has a lot of experience against both armies and knows what he is talking about.

    Especially about the Dread sphinx! Let's not forget it has the potential of doing up to 15 wounds against any type of unit that has MW!!
    To clarify about the dread sphinx it only gets mw on models with towering presence.
  • IHDarklord wrote:

    I'm very happy a constructive and well argumented feedback was written up.

    I do have the feeling the OP has a lot of experience against both armies and knows what he is talking about.

    Especially about the Dread sphinx! Let's not forget it has the potential of doing up to 15 wounds against any type of unit that has MW!!
    isn't the dread sphinx only D3 vs towering presences ?
  • Maybe I should clarify myself a tiny bit:

    My ironic and sarcistic self wanted to, in a spur of slight rage, make clear to the OP and anyone who would share his opinions that his beliefs (and in no way facts) are completely and utterly wrong.
    To do so, I presented the most laughable thing that was written and made a false statement of my own to show how unimaginably misgiven a person must be to come to such conclusions.


    And yes, the MW only works against Towering Presence...
    Pharaoh's Unite!

    ETC Team Belgium 2018 - Undying Dynasties
    ETC Team Belgium 2019 - Undying Dynasties
  • IHDarklord wrote:

    Maybe I should clarify myself a tiny bit:

    My ironic and sarcistic self wanted to, in a spur of slight rage, make clear to the OP and anyone who would share his opinions that his beliefs (and in no way facts) are completely and utterly wrong.
    To do so, I presented the most laughable thing that was written and made a false statement of my own to show how unimaginably misgiven a person must be to come to such conclusions.


    And yes, the MW only works against Towering Presence...
    He can't be so damn wrong, when like half of our community has the feeling that VS and UD are OP, too. Though the arguments on why UD and VS are a bit over the top at the moment aren't fiting @Pigi 's own points, of course.

    Nevertheless we should discuss such feedback in a proper way instead of making fun of the reporting persons. The feedback might not be very reflected, but one can easily see (read) some kind of frustation leading to opening this thread. If you think, he was wrong, then how about refuting his 'arguments' in a more helpful way, so he'll get the chance to deal with such units in the end? ;)

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  • I'm sorry to have sounded harsh, that is generally not in my nature.

    I will however, not argue again to the same statements over and over again. Long discussions have taken place already in the past week.
    (At least about UD I know they have)


    Just as a sidenote:
    I've been playing UD for several years, with approx. 250 battles per year. I love the army. I've always loved the army, even when UD (or TK at the time) would present themselves at the bottom of the ladder. The list I've been playing for a year now and I'm taking to the ETC is probably one of the most boring lists I've played with them. I want, I truely want the army to change. It won't. Not until there's a LAB for them. Until then, point changes will push the insane list into more boring builds for at least another year. There's nothing more I can wish for than having a full rework (at least when related to T9A).
    As much as the list is boring, I loathe every person claiming the list is easy, requires no skill or the army is blatantly overpowered.


    So again, please apologize my rudeness, it comes from the love of my army.
    Pharaoh's Unite!

    ETC Team Belgium 2018 - Undying Dynasties
    ETC Team Belgium 2019 - Undying Dynasties
  • i forgot something today i did play agaisnt Undying dinasties i did use 2 organ guns(runed so +1to wound and 2 enginers) i was lucky there cos i did kill 3 of his chariot but then in next phase he did repopped 2 full of them cos he is using 3 mages, then at my turn i did 3 wounds on the sphinx and again in his turn he repopped all the 3 wounds. Now tell me if this is not totally OP. So basically when i got in cac, his units were already again full. its just so unbalanced i dont see how u cant see how this so terrible unfair tho.
  • Okay Pigi Pigi...
    UD is pretty good. But it’s not like the game is unwinable. Try focusing all your shooting on one thing at a time. Your army has great counters to sphinxes like slayers, slayer characters, cannons, and Kings with s10 and multiwounds d3. Not to mention you have a lot of tools available to limit his magic.

    But you don’t see chaos players coming on the forums complaining how op Dh is because your shield wall counters their high os and gives you a free ward save. And that as soon as he walks into range of your organ guns you start taking huge expensive chunks out of his army potentially 1000 pts in a shooting phase if he has a dragon or feldrake General. Different armies have strengths and weakness. Part of the game is maximizing good matchups and minimizing bad ones.

    You do have some good points, but when Guy Demerie top scoring UD player at wtc comes on and says he plays 250 games a year (which is really quite incredible as games average about 3 hours!) he might just be a little more well practiced.

    Also I don’t think the dread sphinx was taken in a single etc list this year, and it doesn’t have multi wounds vs anything in the Dh army as you have no units with towering presence ;)
  • Ir3k wrote:

    I general I dont think VS and UD are over powered, i think the problem is playing the same list over and over agian.
    Interestingly enough the VS players seem to agree that running the same list is getting tiring, but feel as though the rest of their army book is kinda ... sub-par, leaving them feeling like there's no other choice but to run the same list.
    In the UTC thread in the VS zone, the OP even gave a shout-out to the one VS player who shook up the 2-dreadmill meta ... by only taking one dreadmill.
  • Rats have been OP since 7th edition Skaven in Warhammer Fantasy. Their benchmark was just always out of wack, and unfortunately this is something that carried over into VS in T9A. Some of the best shooting, the most bodies on the table, double Dreadmills and Aboms taking turns being an auto-include, shooting into combat, the best LD for break tests, infantry units with easy acess to re-rolls/auto-hits... the only consistent design choice by both GW and T9A, throughout all iterations of both of the games I've played, is that the rules don't apply to the rats. :D

    Theo

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Theorox ().

  • the main problem is that those 2 armys are too much pwerfull in any phase, UD with divination is just terrible cos if u fail the spell cast u can reroll and then if it pass u just keep healing the units, by repopping like 1 chariot each spell that pass basically this is totally insane or just keep reppopping the sphinx or wat ever..... even the combo with divination and shooting is just too much amazing on shabt archers cos u give them +1 to hit or reroll to hit.... they shooting already at 36" and ignore everything this gets too much powerfull, if anyone here dont wanna be realistic i dont care rly i just look at the fact that most armys played on etc are VS and UD and guess why
  • At least I hope we can agree VS and UD are somehow a little bit, tiny tiny, above the average?

    We know that facts will give us the answer to that, seeing at the performances in ETC. We already know that VS is present in almost every team, don't know about UD.

    But saying that UD and VS are OK and at the same level of the other armies is unfair :)

    I'll wait for the results of ETC, having a little feeling that nerfs will be served in order to regain equilibrium (which now there is not).

    It is true that every army has some counters and some easy match ups. VS and UD have easy (or at least OK) match ups with almost all the other armies, and this is the difference (and this is also why you have VS in almost all ETC teams, because VS are the jolly, as well as UD).