Point reduction for Warriors?

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  • Firthunands91 wrote:

    @Laurfelt @Exalted Champion Yeah, if everyone gets teleportation, reduced core, unkillable maniacs mass murderers who can deal with most things in the game instead of having a specific target as characters, a handful of the best monsters in game at a more than friendly price, access to cc rerrols from magic, 2+ armor bodyguard infantry, 95% of the book being itp (who cares about fear or panic test anymore these days, surely 4/5 of the best books don't, must be a coincidence), R5 3+ 2attacks per model at high agi and elite os/ds infantry from core, ability to use shield, parry and GW in characters, a replicable h with high damage (low ap)... I think I will find I don't need that "op shooting".

    LOL. You just want your standard core infantry who are already the best one from any other core and arguably one of the best infantry in the game to roll over anything they get in front or being cheap enough you don't care they die to ranged damage, their supposed weak point (good look shooting at them at R5 3+).

    Yeah I guess after seeing the current state of half the book being bent to UD levels you want them to join, but my opinion about core warriors, and the one from most sane people here, seems to be they are in more than a decent spot, maybe a bit behind in the internal balance of a book that is top3 atleast. But sure make them 6ppm cheaper. That's the sensible solution.

    And BTW, most shooting in the game already pay for it in their price tag and it's hard capped, to a point you can notice they are getting less and less picked in the big tournaments. I can talk about DH since I'm doing some data review for the proyect and infantry shooting is the less taken option from their core BY FAR.

    At the etc, over 16 DH lists, there are 6x10 man units with xbows, 1x11 xbows, and 2x10 with Handguns. Man, that shooting power is getting out of control.



    A common DH warrior with a 24' str4ap2 weapon, with T4 4+ save and 1 attack Str3 ap0 goes for 25ppm, 10ppm more than a common DH warrior without the ranged weapon, and, 1ppm more expensive than those poor warriors.
    Sylvan archers, with Str3 ap1 shooting, and being a completely liability in cc or subceptible to any kind of ranged damage with their t3 no save go for 24ppm, same price as the warriors.
    Citadel guard with flintocks (18' str4 ap2) go for 30ppm.
    How is it fair that you say Warriors are 6ppm over costed when you see every other army prices (please don't compare with VS prices, that's another completely different beast)?
    My comment was meant to illustrate that you can't just compare units from different armies in such an isolated way. And if you think I'm only referring to shooting as the weak stuff other armies have...eh, we don't seem to play the same game.

    I'm thinking about cannons and similar that can put a serious dent in enemy units. The WDG don't have access to these and thus can't decimate enemy CC units in the same way. It's logical to assume that decimated warriors (or other units) need to be either way more capable in CC even when reduced or be a lot cheaper per model to make up for this. Or you disagree?
    Commission painting: IpaintUplay
    My WDG blog
  • berti wrote:

    You need a model with base size at least 4"4" to make it impossible to use the portal and keep a model in 3" to it.
    That is 8 cavalry models at least, 4 wide, 2 deep. It is easier to block the entry to the portal by unit size, but propably way harder to achieve on the table.

    There are not so many units/models easy available that can cover this footprint and are disposable enough to be just used for blocking portals. Because the Warrior player is not forced to teleport through the portal, it is just an option, and if portal enables him to distract half an oponent army from threatening the frontline, he already won the movement game.
    It seems to me, that you dont seem to know how to counter hellmaw. I played only a few games against it and of course some with it, to found its fundamentale weakness: the 24 range.
    You can adapt your deployment to the knowledge.

    If you know how it works, you will know where the portals are placed most likely. And mostly you will know where the hellmaw is placed.
    So you have the option to kill the hellmaw.

    It is like with all new things implanted to the game. First couple of games you will most likely be surprised by this things and without an idea what to do.
    Then you will find tactics how to counter it. And then you have the tools and knowledge how to deal with it.

    Hellmaw armys are not invincible. You just have to play completly different movement game against that lists.
  • a loss in the eyes of some though. My hellcannons wont be used as hellmaws. I'm honestly happy for those of you who love it and got inspired to make and paint cool models but a little sad for my hellcannons and trolls that I dont see fit to represent units in the new book. Nothing to do with the price of warriors but hey ho!
    Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

    Pics of my ever expanding warriors army

    WastelandWarrior Painting League 2018

    WastelandWarrior Painting League 2019
  • Laurfelt wrote:


    I'm thinking about cannons and similar that can put a serious dent in enemy units. The WDG don't have access to these and thus can't decimate enemy CC units in the same way. It's logical to assume that decimated warriors (or other units) need to be either way more capable in CC even when reduced or be a lot cheaper per model to make up for this. Or you disagree?
    This is a very good point. It's a good job the guys working on the book were also aware of this else WoDG would have been in real trouble....

    Post by Firthunands91 ().

    This post was deleted by the author themselves ().
  • Laurfelt wrote:

    Firthunands91 wrote:

    @Laurfelt @Exalted Champion Yeah, if everyone gets teleportation, reduced core, unkillable maniacs mass murderers who can deal with most things in the game instead of having a specific target as characters, a handful of the best monsters in game at a more than friendly price, access to cc rerrols from magic, 2+ armor bodyguard infantry, 95% of the book being itp (who cares about fear or panic test anymore these days, surely 4/5 of the best books don't, must be a coincidence), R5 3+ 2attacks per model at high agi and elite os/ds infantry from core, ability to use shield, parry and GW in characters, a replicable h with high damage (low ap)... I think I will find I don't need that "op shooting".

    LOL. You just want your standard core infantry who are already the best one from any other core and arguably one of the best infantry in the game to roll over anything they get in front or being cheap enough you don't care they die to ranged damage, their supposed weak point (good look shooting at them at R5 3+).

    Yeah I guess after seeing the current state of half the book being bent to UD levels you want them to join, but my opinion about core warriors, and the one from most sane people here, seems to be they are in more than a decent spot, maybe a bit behind in the internal balance of a book that is top3 atleast. But sure make them 6ppm cheaper. That's the sensible solution.

    And BTW, most shooting in the game already pay for it in their price tag and it's hard capped, to a point you can notice they are getting less and less picked in the big tournaments. I can talk about DH since I'm doing some data review for the proyect and infantry shooting is the less taken option from their core BY FAR.

    At the etc, over 16 DH lists, there are 6x10 man units with xbows, 1x11 xbows, and 2x10 with Handguns. Man, that shooting power is getting out of control.



    A common DH warrior with a 24' str4ap2 weapon, with T4 4+ save and 1 attack Str3 ap0 goes for 25ppm, 10ppm more than a common DH warrior without the ranged weapon, and, 1ppm more expensive than those poor warriors.
    Sylvan archers, with Str3 ap1 shooting, and being a completely liability in cc or subceptible to any kind of ranged damage with their t3 no save go for 24ppm, same price as the warriors.
    Citadel guard with flintocks (18' str4 ap2) go for 30ppm.
    How is it fair that you say Warriors are 6ppm over costed when you see every other army prices (please don't compare with VS prices, that's another completely different beast)?
    My comment was meant to illustrate that you can't just compare units from different armies in such an isolated way. And if you think I'm only referring to shooting as the weak stuff other armies have...eh, we don't seem to play the same game.
    I'm thinking about cannons and similar that can put a serious dent in enemy units. The WDG don't have access to these and thus can't decimate enemy CC units in the same way. It's logical to assume that decimated warriors (or other units) need to be either way more capable in CC even when reduced or be a lot cheaper per model to make up for this. Or you disagree?
    Define more capable? If you get into CC with 10 warriors (which started out as 20 strong) you have 20 attacks. That is alot of pain. Moreover, a block of warriors would be the last thing I cared about to shoot at if you had other more serious threats.
  • I'm pretty sure your math is off unless you're fielding them 10 wide. That number of attacks also requires that your warriors have charged (or been charged by) something that doesn't strike before them and kill a few more. And after the warriors have struck, they don't have any rank bonus that the enemy unit is more likely to have.

    Btw to make it clear...I'm not saying that I think warriors need to cost less or have better stats. To me it just often feels like other armies have CC units that are more consistent i combat due to rules like battle focus, better str in first round, hatred, etc.

    But again, maybe I just play them badly :)
    Commission painting: IpaintUplay
    My WDG blog
  • New

    DanT wrote:

    jimbo81 wrote:

    Everyone has made some good points but is still feels like Warriors are costed wrong (too high) for a bunch or upgrades we don't want or need (see below posts). In any army I always feel like I'm one main combat block short. This is the points costing failure of the army. 6 points a model cheaper with the following changes.

    • Make spiked shield an optional purchase at 3pts a model - not auto included.
    • Remove the 5+ aegis save Vs Toxic attacks (what is this for? 5+ aegis vs maybe one unit or one spell in any given game - I have no interest in the hell maw and IF there is a cost to be paid in the hellmaw tactic, that cost should be on the hellmaw - not the basic warrior) Reduce points for Warriors by 2 points per model.
    • Remove Path of the favored for warriors (a 2 HP champ is a minor advantage in challenges but do I want to pay for this - NO). Reduce points for Warriors by 1 point per model.

    Trolololol.I think your costs and discounts are complete fantasy, borderline delusional.

    Also, note that what you are saying is "please remove the background driven and flavour things".
    If these things were removed then (A) You still wouldn't be happy with the price. (B) The book would have a lot less flavour.

    I mean while you are at it, lets take unburnt off the feldrak eldar and reduce his price by 100pts.


    "In any army I always feel like I'm one main combat block short. This is the points costing failure of the army."
    You realise that part 1 of this quote doesn't imply part 2, right?
    I'm not going to trade ad hominem attacks with you but I assure you that I am in command of all my mental faculties. I think using words like "troll" in the same way that anyone wishing to stifle a debate might play one of the main auto-win _____IST or ____phobic cards is a flawed argument.

    I made the costing suggestions in BOLD dot points as I had hoped that these points would be addressed.

    You argue that a Warrior Army missing the rules such as '5+ ward Vs toxic' or 'Champion +1 HP' makes them significantly 'less-fluffy' in terms of the army's racial background - "less flavour" (and you further the Ad Hominem attack by using the slippery slope device claiming that once this is modified that I still wouldn't be happy.

    I think you raise an interesting point that each of the Armies must have flavour and a uniqueness to engage the player, to make the game more thematic - not just plastic squares but armies with back-stories, interesting and compelling reasons why they would be fighting. I recall (fondly) the 5th edition dwarves that were battling Goblins and Skaven to reclaim lost hordes and the sense of tragedy when their small number of warriors got even smaller, losing a war of attrition against wave after wave of subterranean tunnelers. They had their beards which were sacred and a source of pride, they drank Bugman's finest, made fine weapons and machines, proudly and stubbornly refused to run when the odds were hopeless and became slayers (shaving their hair except for the mohawk and dying it orange).

    The rules reflected this character of the Army. Dwarves were leadership 9 which reflected their stubbornness and the strength of their resolve, their veteran troops were 'long-beards' and had better WS and armour (gromril armour + shield), etc. This is brilliant flavour and s reflected in their core stats.

    When I think of WOTDG, I am completely at a loss to see how a 5+ Aegis vs Toxic attacks adds to their flavour. This is purely a game mechanic. It's to create Synergy with the Hellmaw (which many players do not utalise - and as stated, the cost should be reflected in the Hellmaw entry).

    The spiked Shield is a very strong flavour piece and the rules are excellent. I believe a fair cost for this item is 3-5pts a model. At that price it's expensive but still great kit and I would probably buy it IF I wanted to run st4 warriors. If I want halberds (or GW), I don't think it's fair to have to pay for the expensive spiked shield upgrade when a regular shield achieves the same thing, and the spiked shield will never be utalised. The value of the Spiked shield may even exceed 3 points but I've only recommended a 3 point reduction. Again, I can't see a difference in flavour between spiked shields and non-spiked shield warriors with halberds - surely this would be simmilar to the 5th ed Dwarf general either taking Hammerers or Long Beards. It's a choice - but the Hammerer unit was not 3-5 points more expensive because of the gromril armour/shield combo of the Long-Beards. Furthermore, if Flavour and fluffy is the only reason for including the cost of a spiked shield, can you really imagine a WDG Chosen issuing his Halberd warriors with spiked shields that they will never use? I was of the opinion that they come from a harsh land where such specialised weapons would be hard to come by - otherwise Barbarians would have them as an option - or an auto-include wouldn't they?

    I think Path of the Favoured is a compromise - I think they removed the eye of the gods challenge mechanic (which was so good) and wanted to give something back to the players (which is admirable - but probably already costed in the price of the warriors already). One extra wound on the path of the favoured champion doesn't add much to flavour but I concede it does show that the champion is harder to kill in a challenge and MAY go more than one round against an opponent in a challenge if that opponent fluffs his dicerolls. It makes him a tiny bit harder to snipe. I think it's a flavour attempt that the cost of every warrior pays for the benefit of just the champion and it's not THAT much of an advantage. I would NOT purchase this upgrade if that were an option, hence my recommendation that it be removed as an auto-cost (possibly retain this as an option). Years ago, champions could take a magic item up to 25pts (50 these days). I think this is a better idea, it's fluffy and goes a long way to justifying the path of the favoured costing.
  • New

    The Warriors of the Dark Gods are a T9A-specific thing.

    Trying to think of them as a continuation of someone else's creation puts you on the wrong path to understanding them.


    The Path of the Favoured is one of increasing power and rewards. Mortals become Warriors. Warriors become Chosen - and a Favoured Champion is one of the Chosen. Chosen become Chosen Champions, and Chosen Champions become characters.

    At each step of the way, the previous step is led by those who have gone beyond them.

    It is at the stage where a Warrior becomes one of the Chosen that they acquire a patron; literally, that is the point at which they are Chosen.


    It's not that "their champions get +1 HP" ; it's that their Champions are Chosen and the mechanical representation is that they get the extra HP that Chosen have. That's why the +1 HP Champions are a prerequisite for having the favour of a Dark God.


    It has nothing to do with "the Eye of the Gods" or challenges. It is there because that is the background of T9A.

    Background Team

  • New

    I think you missed my point. I wasn't using any other narrative but I did use examples where fluff and stats correlate as an example. I see path of the chosen as problematic (all warriors are more expensive because of the option to take a champion. If there's no champion, why is the cost of the path of the chosen still included? - presumably the unit is not on the 'path' as they have no possible way of being 'chosen' (and no way of gaining the additional +1HP on their champion). While we're on this topic, the champion of the Chosen Knight unit gains nothing from the +1Hp as this is limited to 3HP MAX). To me this represents limited value and the champion should gain the same +1HP on the chosen knight unit. Why cap it at 3?

    What of the other bullet points that no one has addressed? There's the Hellmaw tax for Warriors (who are unlikely to ever fight alongside a hellmaw) and the spiked shield Tax (for warriors who may never use a spiked shield).

    Why not make these things optional upgrades?
    • Make spiked shield an optional purchase at 3pts a model - not auto included.
    • Remove the 5+ aegis save Vs Toxic attacks (what is this for? 5+ aegis vs maybe one unit or one spell in any given game - I have no interest in the hell maw and IF there is a cost to be paid in the hellmaw tactic, that cost should be on the hellmaw - not the basic warrior) Reduce points for Warriors by 2 points per model.
    • Remove Path of the favored for warriors (a 2 HP champ is a minor advantage in challenges but do I want to pay for this - NO). Reduce points for Warriors by 1 point per model.
    Warriors are a very expensive unit. I'd rather pay for things I use.
  • New

    N3okorrales wrote:

    Yeah cause 18 points for a OS5 St4 Res4 Att2 3+ AS makes a lot of sense. You are nuts.
    ???

    10 warriors is 210pt - not 180pts. 20 cost 450pts. 21pts a model. at 20, you're paying 22.5pts a model. That includes a spiked shield, path of the favoured and 5+ward vs toxic attacks.

    Say that dropping these three things is worth losing six points and that I am indeed not 'nuts'. Add a 6 point halberd and it costs the same.

    What's the problem? I call that a fair and logical trade for halberd warriors with none of the unwanted upgrades.
  • New

    jimbo81 wrote:

    Why not make these things optional upgrades?


    Make spiked shield an optional purchase at 3pts a model - not auto included.

    Remove the 5+ aegis save Vs Toxic attacks (what is this for? 5+ aegis vs maybe one unit or one spell in any given game - I have no interest in the hell maw and IF there is a cost to be paid in the hellmaw tactic, that cost should be on the hellmaw - not the basic warrior) Reduce points for Warriors by 2 points per model.

    Remove Path of the favored for warriors (a 2 HP champ is a minor advantage in challenges but do I want to pay for this - NO). Reduce points for Warriors by 1 point per model.
    Warriors are a very expensive unit. I'd rather pay for things I use.
    Because spiked shield upgrade is most likely in 1ppm ballpark, toxic aegix in 0.1 ppm and path of the favored adds break rerolls which are mighty fine in an army without BSB.

    In general everyone making fun of you in this topic sees that your "pricing and suggestions" are totally off charts, so they are treating you like a troll. If you want to be treated like a honest discussion participant you should first learn at least basics of the topic you want to discuss and then approach more experienced people with open mind.
    My gallery: Adam painting stuff (HbE, VC and lots of terrain)
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  • New

    Adam wrote:

    jimbo81 wrote:

    Why not make these things optional upgrades?


    Make spiked shield an optional purchase at 3pts a model - not auto included.

    Remove the 5+ aegis save Vs Toxic attacks (what is this for? 5+ aegis vs maybe one unit or one spell in any given game - I have no interest in the hell maw and IF there is a cost to be paid in the hellmaw tactic, that cost should be on the hellmaw - not the basic warrior) Reduce points for Warriors by 2 points per model.

    Remove Path of the favored for warriors (a 2 HP champ is a minor advantage in challenges but do I want to pay for this - NO). Reduce points for Warriors by 1 point per model.
    Warriors are a very expensive unit. I'd rather pay for things I use.
    Because spiked shield upgrade is most likely in 1ppm ballpark, toxic aegix in 0.1 ppm and path of the favored adds break rerolls which are mighty fine in an army without BSB.
    In general everyone making fun of you in this topic sees that your "pricing and suggestions" are totally off charts, so they are treating you like a troll. If you want to be treated like a honest discussion participant you should first learn at least basics of the topic you want to discuss and then approach more experienced people with open mind.
    1ppm for spiked shield? Toxic aegis 0.1ppm?

    The model cost is 22.5ppm and their main armament is only 1ppm? I feel you are exaggerating. The weapon upgrades are great weapon 5, halberd 6. Spiked shield is 1ppm? really?