Assassin LAB redesign suggestions.

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  • Why not start from a basis of Fights in Extra Ranks and Monstrous Support. Then, let him leave units even if they're engaged (but not join).

    Hes there, he attacks, he slips out and is off to the next mission.

    If his unit charges he had to wait until your next turn to run away, if you charge him he has to wait a round of combat. So he can still be picked up points wise with a combat win.
  • Ozzy666 wrote:

    But, as it was been pointed out, Assassins definitely shouldn't be killing Characters (and especially not Champions) in fair-and-square duels. This is a role that should be fulfilled by killy Prince/Captain/Priest builds.
    I like the idea of the unfair fight - let assassins attack enemies engaged in duels! Honour is counterproductive to the mission.
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  • I vote for full redesign.

    If it stays as a single character I would like the options to have an:

    Assassin: single target killer, targeting command group, bsb, general.
    Saboteur: find and strike at support units, eg. Buff wagons, wizards, artillery.
    Under cover agent: disables scoring or somehow impedes enemy ability to achieve the objective.

    If it becomes a unit upgrade either like mad gits or as a super champion I'd like to see them get a poison that lasts forever.
    Eg does a wound per turn, or reduces toughness per turn. Where 0 toughness = death.

    Or thirdly becomes a unit of say 1-5 models. Similar to raven cloaks. Some sort of subterfuge death squad. Could also have a "suicide squad" feel.

    Or as a "global" upgrade similar to ancestral grudges. "Deploy assassins" for each assassin bought at the start of a turn (one per turn) pick an enemy character or single model and a single assassination attempt occurs.
  • IraOfDawn wrote:

    2 it created a annoying mini game into the game if you had key charachters cause untill you found the assassin you couldn't commit too combats with those units.
    This sometimes had the effect that merely not revealing where the assassin was made the opponent unable to commit to combat.

    I.e. 3 spearman units are in range of my warriors with thane assassin is hidden. I cant charge any of them since if i gamble wrong I'll lose the unit +char.

    Edit spell error
    Isn't this actually a sort of strength of the assassin character? In my mind, it feeds directly into the fear associated with the model by forcing the opponent to not know all the variables. I think it's actually a great mechanic as it adds an unresolvable element of chance without being dependent on dice rolls.

    Ozzy666 wrote:

    But, as it was been pointed out, Assassins definitely shouldn't be killing Characters (and especially not Champions) in fair-and-square duels. This is a role that should be fulfilled by killy Prince/Captain/Priest builds.

    I've seen this a few times as well, but why shouldn't assassins be able to kill characters? They spend their entire lives focusing on fighting - they train in hand-to-hand combat, weapons, stealth, poisons, and much more, all with the focus of killing a single enemy (often by surprise). Characters thematically might spend SOME of their time training, but to be able to general an army they must at least spend some of their time on other things (tactics, politics etc) and even their martial training might not necessarily be focused on killing an individual unwitting target, but rather battlefield fighting and working in units. I think assassins should be able to kill almost anything in single combat (if tooled up correctly), as it falls within their overall character development. Hell, if they train for their whole lives just to be able to take out a dude holding a banner fighting with one hand (and then only sometimes), why bother having them?

    Thematically, I don't like the idea of the assassin becoming a unit upgrade that changes the mechanics or stats of the unit itself - might as well get rid of the assassin altogether and add 'super cool weapons that do stuff' as the upgrade and be done with it.

    I think some of the earlier posts were more on the mark, not necessarily with the specific options but the way we should approach it initially. The best unit entries often have a lot of character (pardon the pun) in them, so maybe we should start with ideas about the feel of the unit rather than specific rules.

    Think: what do you picture when you hear assassin? Is it the masked and cloaked knife in the shadows? The politicking envoy that poisons his political targets as often as treaties with them? Or is it something else totally? Think of the image you have and describe it, and with enough points down on a page we might finally get to a 'feel' we like, at which point the rules will probably fall more into place.
  • Maybe another idea:

    Make it an upgrade for a prince.
    Giving him... -1 Attack but also lethal strike + Multiwounds 2 and poison attacks vs. characters.
    He isn´t trained to hit as many enemys as possible (like someone training for a Battle) but he is trained to make his hits count! [Normally they don´t have a lot of opportunities to kill their targets.]

    So you have to decide if you want a Prince who is good at killing Characters or one who is good at killing units.
  • @Il Maestro
    The problem with 'Hidden' isn't whether or worked out not, the problem is that it is very NPE and shouldn't be implemented. Kinda like full-on shooting & avoidance rosters.

    I didn't mean Assassins shouldn't be killing Characters, a meant they shouldn't be doing it in duels.

    As for what Assassins actually train for - when somebody says 'assassination' I don't really picture a confrontation with a fully armed and armoured opponent with a battle raging on all around. Rather, I picture slitting a throat of a sleeping person or backstabbing them in a dark place (like on their way to the bathroom, when they're stumbling drunk). You don't really need an outstanding skill with blade to do that, you need to be able to pinpoint the optimal situation and moment to do that and be in the right place in the right time. And for that you need to wear disguises, probably speak foreign languages and know other cultures, move soundlessly, seduce and trick people, ect.

    DE Assassins don't utilize any of those skills in-game as of yet. They [the skills] don't really have much use in a battlefield situation, but that doesn't mean that Assassins wouldn't be employed, since obviously they would be trained in close combat anyway.

    They just don't need to be super-killy, I'd be totally fine with a mediocre fighty character that can join another (a Prince/Captain) in a duel (effectively fight the enemy character 2 vs. 1) and move from one unit to another more freely as that would feel more like an Assassin to me than what we currently have.

    Also, what a person trained like that could do on a battlefield is subterfuge - sabotaging artillery, delivering false orders and reports and finally backstabbing an officer or two before fleeing. I don't have an idea how to go about implementing it without making it broken and/or binary.

    Best Wishes
  • Seems like some people represent themself the assassin as an experimented saboteur while the original word name a drugged fanatic with hashish.
    Well, thing evolute so the meaning had changed since medieval time, but the origin designate more someone who is ready to spend his life in order to kill an enemy leader or to terrorize, and more often tied to a cult (so our actual cultless and non fearless assassin are weird with this definition).

    For now I think it's sure we have to define more precisely if it's a fanatical model who will try kill character (with surely the big "hit or miss" feeling associated), or a long trained model who have many tools to hit where she want better at creating havoc than dealing damage.
    1 - Start of the Charge Phase (and start of the Player Turn)
    2 - The Active Player chooses a unit and declares a Charge
  • GSbasic wrote:

    What if the assassin ignored armor enchantments? This would solve some of his problems killing characters (they would still get their mundane armor) and it could simulate an unprepared opponent.
    No offense

    But either something cool and unique is found for the assassin or you fold him into the standard hero

    Giving him bonuses against characters is pretty boring and unbalanceable too.
  • This is what I proposed in the brainstorming thread about Assassin. Don't take it too seriously, it's just a simple design, it might be weak.

    xaby86 wrote:

    In my idea of what an Assassin is I don't see him as a character, I also imagine him as a person who hides to kill you in the back, not an elite duelist. I also think he should be able to reach his goal without the need to be in contact, to represent that he is fast, he moves agile among enemies to stab. I would like it to be a bit cheap to put two or three and that the list is still complete, for them I imagine killing support heroes with little armor, such as VC necromancers, KoE damsels, and other magicians of that type, perhaps other cheap enemy heroes and look for some wound in fat characters with luck but I would not design it to kill dwarf kings in throne, characters in dragon, vampires or other beasts of combat. Since I'd like it to be cheap and easy to have several, I'd make a rule that I can't redirect other units, that's the job of other units.

    That's why it could be something like that:

    Assassin.150pts (or something like that)
    Of9/Df6 S4 T3 2W Ag9 1A Dis8 AP2

    Except in Of and Ag he has a very humble profile.

    Paired weapon, light armor, LR, lettal strike.

    Stabbing in the back.
    May repeat rolls to wound when attacking characters.

    With Of9 and Ag 9 you make sure he always attacks case first. 2 attacks of that hit to 2+ because they cancel Parry and he is able to finish off most annoying champions. Repeat to wound, S4 and Lettal strike ensure that any of your few attacks succeed and repeating the die is more likely to result in a 6.

    Moving through the shadows.
    Assassin may only be deployed in an infantry unit, it may not leave it as an individual model. In the movement phase it may retreat from the unit where it was and be placed on the front of another unit located 15' away. It may retreat from its unit even if it is locked in combat and also if the new unit is locked in combat. If the Assassin unit is destroyed, remove it as a casualty.

    With this rule you ensure that you are never alone at the table to redirect. He is "teleporting" between the shadows to another unit but if the Assassin is alone in open field he will creep out of the terrain. You have to be foresighted.

    Reach the target.
    Assassin can declare that his attacks are aimed at any character who is in contact with his unit, even if he is not in contact with it.

    This serves to always attack the target character even if you are attacking from the flanks or rear, even if they are in the middle like the damsels or even if they are in your own flank or rear.

    Nabh. It has BF.
    Yema: +3' when moving between units thanks to the "move between shadows" rule.
    Caradon: He's got poison attacks.
    Oradon: They have divine attacks

    You can upgrade as:

    Gran Assassin (+50pts)
    Lettal strike attacks have MW2

    It's a fragile model. Without salvation, which vanishes if it is left without unity. It doesn't have an impressive profile either, but despite all this it is very slippery. It can get into a unit that is already fighting, in a corner to not receive many attacks, attack and if the enemy is reorganized is changed to another unit on a flank or rear that has just loaded. If it has finished its function it leaves the combat not to die. 2A of S4 are not a big deal but with Lettal strike and repeating can kill any unprotected character, make several to any normal character or some very resistant and armored characters, and then disappear elsewhere to finish the job.

    xaby86 wrote:

    I think the Assassins should kill the enemy characters and the raven cloacks should be in charge of destroying WM and other similar elements. Be another category of Assassin different, maybe apprentices who go in group or guerrillas

    xaby86 wrote:

    Well, maybe I don't have the most impressive profile but you have 2A that almost always go to 2+, I don't see any need to repeat this roll as it would make it more expensive for nothing. S4 reroll, is little, but here and other synergies come into play, debuffs and +1 to wound. You can imagine a combat where a couple of units attack on several fronts a KoE unit with damsel or a VC unit with necromancer, you with 3 Assassins. They are 6A to 2+ to hit, 2+ reroll to wound by death trance, 3+ reroll without DT. Both are unsaved by AP2 and as it is S4 the damsel has only Aegis 6+. Death for sure and then... PUF! PUF! And the three of them disappear, if they hadn't died, but that's why they teleport themselves, to be in places where they receive few attacks.

    As I didn't want to make it very powerful so that it isn't a tanky mata it's possible that I made it a little loose, it's possible that with Df8 for the normal troop to attack 5+, AP3 and BF it would be more balanced, with that I could already fight against a blacksmith DH (2+, 4+ reroll or 3+ reroll with DT, salvation 4+ if full armor, without Aegis if they have teleported to a flank) but I repeat that the idea is to make it cheap so that there are some and they can jump between units to stab and escape. Putting on MW2 and repeating armor cheerfully makes your opponent have a bad roll and potentially a dwarf king on throne is about to die and that doesn't seem fair to me either.
  • New

    Another Crazy Idea

    Fluff: The Assassin will kill his/her target when he reaches it, but maybe someone detects him first and then he is done for?

    Basic Rules
    In Close Combat, the Assassin chooses a target (must be a character) and gains Stalker.
    Stalker - The unit cannot attack. The unit can only be attacked by Rank and File models (i.e. fluff-wise the guards).

    After X combat rounds he reaches his target and does something devastating, like dealing Y wounds without saves. Then it loses Stalker again.

    Optional Rules to tweak it (some can be combined, some are either-or, you'll figure it out)

    * If the target survives it may make a full combat round of out-of-sequence attacks as in their profile against the Assassin (i.e. he is caught!)
    * If the target is locked in a duel, it is automatically killed (after all it's distracted).
    * During Stalker the Assassin is debuffed (no armour, lower def)
    * The opponent may always have at least X models attack the Stalker, no matter how many are in base contact (symolizing he is actually moving through the enemy)
    * Attacks on a stalker are "detection" attacks and follow other rules (e.g. using Agi to hit or something) or do not need to wound
    * Amount of detection attacks could be based on opponents amount of ranks (more ranks, harder to find the target) or the other way around? (less people, less places to blend in)
    * Instead of X combat rounds, instead move the Assassin one model closer to the target until he reaches it. (very visual, creates further skill-check to get the Assassin in at the right position)
    * Instead of X combat rounds, roll a die. On 6+ he reaches it. After each combat round add +1 to the roll.
    * Units with Stalker that are engaged in close combat on their flank or rear are automatically removed from combat (fluff-wise the opponent surprised the Stalker and detected him)

    What I like
    * It makes the Assassin a character killer, killing even combat chars without giving him rules to decimate anything else. No weapons arm race in terms of Off, Def, Att, Str, AP, MW with the other characters. After all these stats can also be used to kill monsters, RnF and all other things, where the Assassin should not be as good as others
    * It creates a mini-game inside the combat: Will he reach the target, or not? Very cinematic.
    * For the Assassin to do his work, the DE would need to hold out a combat, something they are not strong in, so it creates a counter-point from a powerlevel point of view

    What I do not like
    * Very swingy, it's a "do or die" moment
    * Probably very hard to balance

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  • New

    Hm I don’t understand why most of you think the current assassin is bad / bad character killer; I use both the VS and the DE assassins on a competitive level. They of course do not fit in every list, but it wouldn’t be richt as well if they would. But in lists they fit, they are great.
    For DE it’s currently either in Raven Cloaks or in vanguarden corsairs with a death-Kiss prince where I love him; however both times with SilentDeath/Bloodroot, which is indeed a fact I don’t like. Make other options/approaches playable as well!
  • New

    Ozzy666 wrote:

    As for what Assassins actually train for - when somebody says 'assassination' I don't really picture a confrontation with a fully armed and armoured opponent with a battle raging on all around. Rather, I picture slitting a throat of a sleeping person or backstabbing them in a dark place (like on their way to the bathroom, when they're stumbling drunk). You don't really need an outstanding skill with blade to do that, you need to be able to pinpoint the optimal situation and moment to do that and be in the right place in the right time. And for that you need to wear disguises, probably speak foreign languages and know other cultures, move soundlessly, seduce and trick people, ect.

    That does help to understand where you're coming from with your rule suggestions, so thanks!

    So would I be right in saying that you picture someone more akin to a combination of Little Finger (GoT), Keyser Soze (The Usual Suspects), and maybe Hannibal Lecter (SoTL) - but probably a little more seductive :largegrin: ? I guess my personal image of an assassin is more in keeping with characters like Ezio (Assassin's Creed), Jason Bourne, John Wick, Leon (Leon: The Professional), and Boba Fett - just in the setting of an old-world fantasy game.

    Having said that, I do like some of the outside-the-box options that people are thinking of:
    • @Ozzy666: the idea of joining into a duel is cool, allowing for force multiplication without needing an individually uber-assassin
    • @DarkSky: very much like how it removes the need to make the assassin themselves an slaughtermachine by introducing a cool mechanic

    Unfortunately I don't play enough to really offer any insight or worthy advice about stats and special rules to make the assassin more killy, so i won't try (though I like your overall profile @xaby86). My views will obviously be biased though towards a character-killing assassin, just because of how I view model and what it entails on the battlefield, but I definitely see an issue as pointed out above with making an overly powerful character that can kill anything without using niche rules - it will just become a juggernaut in itself and not what I think any of us want.

    For those that do play more often, what scares you the most regarding other characters? Is it just that they unkillable in direct combat? That they cause too much combat damage and affect the resolution? Is it that we don't have anything that can survive them in duels? Or something else entirely?
  • New

    Wesser wrote:

    Id simply give Assassins Ambush and allow Them to Ambush into friendly infantry units (including engaged units).

    Add a little rule preventing Ambush into a unit already harbouring an Assassin and presto
    I like this one, nice and simple. Works almost like a hidden rule, but better as it allows you to determine location post-deployment, and worse as the timing is determined by a 3+ roll. In effect: great fun will happen.

    No need for fancy, lengthy rules but still a good addition to increase the enjoyment of the game.

    As for the guy himself I think he’s fine in the right lists, but could use some tweaking (distracting?).
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  • New

    I'd like to keep the assassin as a character but see a full redesign.

    They should be masters of killing, but killing by stealth, before the battle.

    Would be nice if they could pick a unit and apply a debuff, like say a unit can't start deployed, but instead has to move on from their table edge in turn 2? (Or turn could be some form of roll).

    Having ambush and focusing on killing support units on the battlefield I think is better than character killing.

    Rather than a brittle one hit wonder, they should have a limited damage output, but be really tough to kill - never locked in combat? Run around the side of a unit to slip away? High dodge aegis save?

    As a more far out idea (that I don't expect to gain any traction, but is simply interesting), we could go down the route of a d&d shadow dancer instead of pure assassin - if in the shadow of terrain (i.e. out of Los of any enemy units, and in base contact with terrain), can move to any other piece of terrain on the board which meets the same criteria (or within X", where X is large).

    Post by sixfthoneybadger ().

    This post was deleted by the author themselves ().
  • New

    VampsinMD wrote:

    I was thinking about my idea of the assassin being able to attack and then slip out of combat... then thought "why not just give the assassin a sweeping attack"

    Maybe not every assassin but perhaps with a specific cult or path(silent death?) being able to make a sweeping attack would be pretty sweet.
    assassin’s cult. I like it. M5 so March 10 and add a D6 advance to it to make them swift death maybe? Hard target 2 some type of aegis. I like the sweeping attack idea. That takes away the character killing, which seems to bother lots of people. I like the character killing, but it seems many don’t.