Assassin LAB redesign suggestions.

This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

Our beta phase is finally over. Download The Ninth Age: Fantasy Battles, 2nd Edition now!

  • Assassin LAB redesign suggestions.

    Hello community! Lots of really great feedback happening particularly on the assassin! Although much of this has been happening in the thread unintended for such discussion! Please use this thread for assassin based ideas. I’m sure it will come in handy for LAB team later!

    I’m interested in two things, please state if you would like to keep the assassins perceived role as a character killer the same and maybe what tweaks to make this viable. Or state that you would like to see a full redesign including his main role and what that might look like!

    Have fun with it, and play nice!
  • First things first:
    1. I think the current melee Assassin design is a failure.
    2. Reason a): The Assassin is not good enough to kill or even help killing a top-notch combat character.
    3. Reason b): Our current army is fairly good in dealing with mediocre characters.


    Onto to @GSbasic questions:

    a) Character Killing Role
    Yes, but not as a 'do or die' character design.

    b) Full Redesign
    Yes!

    Potential designs which I think are promising, which we already discussed:
    I. Very mobile, very slippery, pick your target Assassin. Theme: "Unseen until he strikes, then gone before you can react". If you play League of Legends, think Talon. This is quite open but also ambitious. You'd need to create something that does its job, but isn't replaced by "just more combat power" and it needs to accomodate for the fact, that it competes with something like an extra Captain on Pegasus, who has consistent combat ability, flying mobility and can also be used to hunt war machines or attack the backline.

    II. Assassin is a champion upgrade. It allows champions to do something special (maybe as a one time only or even suicide action) that allows to turn the tide against a strong character or finish off a wounded/weaker one. Examples could be to debuff an opposing character for a round, or create a final wound.

    Tool Support Battle Scribe

    Community Engagement


    My blog with battle reports and painting gallery: bleaklegion.wordpress.com/
  • I'de make them a unit upgrade.
    0-1 for any Infantry unit, he gets boosted stats and comes with the equipment and abilities of the unit he is bought with.
    Also he gets Distracting (he'll be using the bodies of his unit to avoid being hit) and Lethal Strike (he's an Assassin, duh) as standard in addition to this.

    Poison of varying types can be an upgrade, as can other weapon options like Paired Weapons and Thrown Weapons.
    Give him an item allowance as well maybe, maybe take the cost of him out of Characters as well for good measure.

    Giving them a Poison that stays in effect on wounded enemies for the entire game, or even just hit enemies (diminished lethality for that obviously) would also help make them feel like feared opponents, regardless of what eventually is done with them).
  • I am of the opinion he needs a clean slate. His assassin ability has been to whittled down and now he’s just a worst version of our other characters. I think the blazing glory from DL has shown that with some design creativity you can have a fun model design. Not saying this needs to be copied, only saying that “out side the box” thinking will add more to the book than trying to “fix” his current placement. I’m jumping on the “infiltrator” wagon. He should add some kind of benefit to units or debuffs (this seems to be inline with our guidelines). I have no idea what these would look like, but I’m sure design team could come up with something cool! I like limiting the range of commanding presence/rally on the flag, perhaps it could be only if he’s in combat with that model? Idk I think this helps some of the inherent problems mmu elves have, we must break units in 1-2 turns of combat or our units just fall apart.
  • Again, I’ll toss it out to make him a lone wizard conclave unit that can snipe, support (espionage), and damage (sabotage). He is the James Bond of the DE army. He can kill a character if the opportunity presents itself, but he is too valuable to the higher ups to be suicidal. How epic would it be to have him as a Scoring unit for the right scenario?!?
    B. "Skunk Butt" Jones - Member of the CGL :oldmen:
    • YES! My conquest is complete! I now have every Army and my bias will be for Every L.A.B. to be great!. :thumbsup:

    DL/ADT - TT

    Campaign Design-Broken Isles

    Freelance Design

    Playtester-Mid Atlantic USA

    CGL 2018 Worst Player Winner

  • Wesser wrote:

    Lets face it

    The needless loss of the Hidden rule made all Assassins redundant....

    You need to start from scratch and come up with something cool that says "Assassin" before talking balance..
    Why can’t the hidden rule come back?

    I use an assassin in my list and he only excels at killing monsters.... which is great, but he should just be called monster slayer lol
  • IraOfDawn wrote:

    i dont particularly care for the char killing fantasy of the assassin, and am in favor of a full redesign. I just want it to be a usefull entry in the book now i just straight up skip them.

    Also please dont bring back hidden it was a cluncky rule at best. the ambushing into units idea that was thrown around earlier sounds so much better already.
    Assassins were why I started playing DEs.

    I think the hidden rule could be less “clunky”, but character killing is awesome!!!

  • Honeybadger wrote:

    Assassins were why I started playing DEs.

    I think the hidden rule could be less “clunky”, but character killing is awesome!!!


    As i said above I'm of the opinion the ambushing into units accomplishes the same thing as the hidden rule.

    (A boost in power be it char killing or otherwise), in a lot fairer and les cumbersome way then the hidden rule ever did. The only thing i want is the unit entry becoming usefull to us again in contradiction to right now.


    On top of that i was just giving my personal feedback since that was what was asked for surely my pov doesn't have to be yours right.
    On that note I'm not gonna enter discussion on this in here since that seems kind of counter productive to the topic.
  • 1 it required book keeping i.e. writing on list where the assassin "deployed".

    2 it created a annoying mini game into the game if you had key charachters cause untill you found the assassin you couldn't commit too combats with those units.
    This sometimes had the effect that merely not revealing where the assassin was made the opponent unable to commit to combat.

    I.e. 3 spearman units are in range of my warriors with thane assassin is hidden. I cant charge any of them since if i gamble wrong I'll lose the unit +char.

    Edit spell error
  • DarkSky wrote:

    The Assassin is not good enough to kill or even help killing a top-notch combat character.
    don't agree with this even if the design is flawed!

    theunwantedbeing wrote:

    I'de make them a unit upgrade.
    0-1 for any Infantry unit, he gets boosted stats and comes with the equipment and abilities of the unit he is bought with.
    Also he gets Distracting (he'll be using the bodies of his unit to avoid being hit) and Lethal Strike (he's an Assassin, duh) as standard in addition to this.

    Poison of varying types can be an upgrade, as can other weapon options like Paired Weapons and Thrown Weapons.
    Give him an item allowance as well maybe, maybe take the cost of him out of Characters as well for good measure.

    Giving them a Poison that stays in effect on wounded enemies for the entire game, or even just hit enemies (diminished lethality for that obviously) would also help make them feel like feared opponents, regardless of what eventually is done with them).
    an infantry unit upgrade that comes out of characters sounds odd and clunky. So, the upgrade comes from characters but if you kill the assassin you get 0 points bc he's a unit upgrade? weird.

    As for the larger premise of your idea, a unit upgrade is not my personal preference but it could work. imo if design went with this option it would probably be less complex to say the assassin has the same cult and equipment as the unit he is upgraded for. so if s/he is a dancer of yema upgrade then s/he is weapon master and has an aegis in combat. if a dread judge then has hatred and mw2 to standard etc. then you just do poison and a stat boost.

    My idea for the assassin special rule:
    When an assassin kills an enemy model it may immediately be placed in a legal position within 3" of the unit it was part of, including in the front rank of an unengaged friendly unit.

    id also increase the assassins weapon options, give them a mount option, tweak poisons to make sure there are multiple useful builds and take away their ability to buy magic weapons (due to extra weapon options and revised poisons) but keep ability to carry other enchanted items.
  • VampsinMD wrote:

    an infantry unit upgrade that comes out of characters sounds odd and clunky. So, the upgrade comes from characters but if you kill the assassin you get 0 points bc he's a unit upgrade? weird.
    Yeah...he's a unit upgrade.
    Like Mad Gits are for goblins, you don't get points for killing just those either.

    It's a little clunky with army creation but making him count towards characters as well is a way to stop players taking one in every unit.
    Plus you can put the option to purchase him in the character section making the whole thing fairly clean and easy to understand.

    VampsinMD wrote:

    As for the larger premise of your idea, a unit upgrade is not my personal preference but it could work. imo if design went with this option it would probably be less complex to say the assassin has the same cult and equipment as the unit he is upgraded for. so if s/he is a dancer of yema upgrade then s/he is weapon master and has an aegis in combat. if a dread judge then has hatred and mw2 to standard etc. then you just do poison and a stat boost.
    Yeah, the finer points of how it's explained would need clearing up.
    I added Lethal Strike because he's an Assassin, why wouldn't he of all things have that ability as standard?
    Distracting is there to give him some extra defence without needing to resort to dodge saves, plus since he's a unit upgrade then just murdering the unit enough takes him out so him being hard to hit isn't that big a problem.

    VampsinMD wrote:

    My idea for the assassin special rule:
    When an assassin kills an enemy model it may immediately be placed in a legal position within 3" of the unit it was part of, including in the front rank of an unengaged friendly unit.
    Not sure I get why he'd get to change location (teleport) after killing?

    VampsinMD wrote:

    id also increase the assassins weapon options, give them a mount option, tweak poisons to make sure there are multiple useful builds and take away their ability to buy magic weapons (due to extra weapon options and revised poisons) but keep ability to carry other enchanted items.
    Yes! more options is always good!
  • I for one wouldn't like Assassins to be unit upgrades, champion upgrades or anything like that.
    Also, I don't know what this 'Hidden' rule used to be in WFB, but if it was a "secretly note down [...]" kind of rule then good riddance.
    [Edit: I see that it has already been explained, and just as I thought, it's not a good thing to have rules like that one in a game]

    But, as it was been pointed out, Assassins definitely shouldn't be killing Characters (and especially not Champions) in fair-and-square duels. This is a role that should be fulfilled by killy Prince/Captain/Priest builds.

    I really like the ideas of moving between friendly units more easily and killing command groups (even if it would only mean that you could kill a Banner Bearer or a Musician to negate their effects for a turn if not for the rest of the game. This would be kinda problematic when it comes to units with more than 1 wound per model though)

    Best Wishes
    Ozzy

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Ozzy666 ().