Post ETC, what adjustments do you think would improve the army?

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  • i think that the key why might duke is spammed so much Is thas is the only model we have that can reliably kill:

    Vermin daemon
    Slayer characters
    Dwarves kings
    Full kited vampires

    Etc...

    Other character builds can damage them and could grind better, the problem is that 3hp with 1+as and blessing is not good enough to endure the retaliation on these units. We have nothing in the book that can survive those.

    These units normally do 5a that hit us on 3+ and wound us at 2+ normally negating all our armour or doing multiple wounds.

    So they would do 2 wounds min after surviving our initial attack and 2-3 wounds more next round before we could attack.

    What do you think? Would increase our defense( uther, percival, fortress ) in exchange of the raw power of might help see diferent builds?
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  • A paired weapons heroes hearth valour grail Duke can kill a slayer lord before he hits (depending on his agi and speed potion) but is sooo meh everything else and has at best only 2+ as.


    It is a okayish build but it again shows the problem that KoE has very little "good builds" it has one op build and a mix of 3 meh builds and rest is bad

                    

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  • Defense is really important for us and points won't really help sadly expect perhaps the Questing Renown blessed combo gets like 150 points cheaper and we can play 2 meh characters for the point of our current might Duke or Little bit more

                    

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  • Kratos wrote:

    i think that the key why might duke is spammed so much Is thas is the only model we have that can reliably kill:

    Vermin daemon
    Slayer characters
    Dwarves kings
    Full kited vampires
    He´s also popular because he eradicates complete multiwound-units in one go.
    18 health points of minotaurs, 15 health points of cataphracts, bruiserstar, trolls...

    Nonetheless KoE needs compensation if the might duke gets nerfed.
    Renown should cause W3+1 wounds, the other virtues need improvement too.
    Personally I find him(might duke) only that problematic in that weird flying druidism reviving 4+ aegis pegasus blob...
    Kruber wrote:
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  • Yeah the trouble being the balance update will have 0 or close to zero actual rules changes. Mostly it’s going to be points. If I had to guess I’d say might goes up to 150 points or thereabouts, Divine Judgement up to 100 or so, and Fortress of Faith up to 70. It’ll probably make the might duke build a bit worse since he won’t have easy access to a 1+ save and fire aegis, but he’ll still see play. The downside is it’ll do collateral damage to other builds.

    We shall see though, maybe the Balance team will simply restrict the might+Divine combo by rewriting a couple of rules, and we’ll end up with no might duke but other solid combos instead by virtue of point reductions on underplayed enchantments.
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  • It is funny that we have the best defense ingame almost with 1+/1+/5++. Can any other character get as good as that?

    Mmh DH character can get even 1+/1+/4++ with shield wall for 165 magic points.
    Still for magic points we have a great if not the best defense... But still I often feel weak and we die really really fast.... Can't really say why currently

                    

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  • That is why I like the grail Oath so much.
    Having Dws 7 is a huge increase vs many threats like rock auroch hitting us on 5+
    Enemy killer heroes hitting us on 4+

    It makes a difference.

    There is just zero builds really....

    Only one is fortress heroes hearth...you never come over s5 :(

                    

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  • I still like:
    Renown, Tristan’s, Fortress, Uther’s, potion of swiftness build.

    5 attacks at str 5, destroys enemy weapons, with a chance to lethal strike with d3 wounds.

    I’ll be honest though, usually what he “can” do is better than what he “does” do most of time, meaning he’s good for zoning, but doesn’t usually get to fight what you want him to
  • I would still take the might duke because he is the only that he "does" what he "can". :P

    Making it more expensive we will just make the list drop points elsewhere. basically it will either drop a yeomen unit or 2 quest knights.

    I think it cannot be solved by points:

    questing, fortress, divine and might should not be possible.

    Then buff everything else:

    Nerfs in red



    Virtues
    • Renown -10 = 50
    • Valour -10 = 50
    • Daring -5 = 45
    • Humility -5 = 30
    • Might - 30 points = 70 Dominant
    Items

    • Divine Judgement + 5 = 85 Dominant
    • Tristran -10 = 45
    • Wyrmwood -5 = 40
    • Crusader -10 = 90
    • Faith of percival -5 = 65
    • Fortress +15 = 75 Dominant
    • Uther -5 = 50
    • Oriflame -15 = 70
    • Green knight -20 = 20
    • Black knight -25 = 60 remove Dominant
    • Crystal -5 = 25 remove Dominant
    • Wafers -5 = 20


    Characters


    Duke
    • Horse -5 = 65
    • Grail Oath add plate armour to Grail Oath same as you get bastard sword with questing oath. ( is this design? )
    • Great Weapon -10 = 0
    • Halberd -10 = 0
    Paladin
    • Pegasus -10 = 90
    • Grail Oath add plate armour to Grail Oath same as you get bastard sword with questing oath. ( is this design? )
    • Halberd and Great weapon -5 = 0
    Damsel

    • Starting for -40 = 80
    • Horse +20 = 60
    • Pegasus -30 = 30
    • Add light armour +5 = 5 ( is this design? )
    • Unicorn -5 = 95
    • Adept +20 = 95
    • Master + 20 = 245
    Castellan

    • Starting -10 = 70
    • Horse +10 = 50
    • All weapons Free


    Units

    Core
    • Peasant levy halberd and spear -1 = 0 ppm
    • Bowmen Starting points -20 = 150
    Special

    • Forlorn Starting -30 = 160
    • Forlorn ppm +4 = 29 (bigger more expensive after 17 models more expensive)
    • Grails -40 = 180
    • Grails ppm +5 = 87 (3-7 cheaper, 8 same, 9 more expensive)
    • Green knight -15 = 360
    • Yeomen ppm ppm -4 = 10
    • Yeomen throwing weapons -1 = 0
    • Brigands -25 = 150
    • Brigands ppm -1 = 12
    • Peasant crusaders -30 = 120
    • Peasant crusaders ppm -2 = 8
    • Sacred relic -20 = 130
    • Trebuchet -30 = 250
    Airborn
    • Pegasus knight -40 = 300
    • Pegasus knight ppm +25 = 120 ( 3-4 cheaper, 5-6 more expensive )
    • Pegasus knights vanguard ppm -2 = 5
    • Pegasus knights loose formation +2 = 5
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    The post was edited 2 times, last by Kratos ().

  • Klexe wrote:

    It is funny that we have the best defense ingame almost with 1+/1+/5++. Can any other character get as good as that?

    Mmh DH character can get even 1+/1+/4++ with shield wall for 165 magic points.
    Still for magic points we have a great if not the best defense... But still I often feel weak and we die really really fast.... Can't really say why currently
    There is far to much AP floating around at the moment. I understand that every army needs to be able to deal with heavily armoured units, but basically every single unit combat unit can pretty easily get AP1 or more and any combat character worth their salt has AP4 or more.

    I'm starting to think that AP and Armour need a rethink at a game wide level. Our Armour save on knights is very rarely rolled at 2+, it's usually a 3+ or a 4+ because AP is very widely available. Which makes a mockery of their price. They're worth every point if you're rolling 2+ saves but they're quite squishy with 4+ saves.

    There was a thread that was quite interesting about this that I saw recently, where AP was moved to become a pierce roll. When your AP > 0, you roll a D6, add your AP and if that beats the ARM of the model you're attacking (including modifiers) then you pierce the armour and no armour save is allowed. If you don't pierce the armour then the unmodified armour save is allowed.

    So if you had AP 2 vs ARM 5, you rolled a D6 and add your and required a 5 or a 6 to pierce the armour. If the armour was pierced, then no armour save is allowed and if it isn't then the armour saves the wound on a 2+.

    I just thought it was an interesting concept.
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • Sir_Sully wrote:

    Klexe wrote:

    It is funny that we have the best defense ingame almost with 1+/1+/5++. Can any other character get as good as that?

    Mmh DH character can get even 1+/1+/4++ with shield wall for 165 magic points.
    Still for magic points we have a great if not the best defense... But still I often feel weak and we die really really fast.... Can't really say why currently
    There is far to much AP floating around at the moment. I understand that every army needs to be able to deal with heavily armoured units, but basically every single unit combat unit can pretty easily get AP1 or more and any combat character worth their salt has AP4 or more.
    I'm starting to think that AP and Armour need a rethink at a game wide level. Our Armour save on knights is very rarely rolled at 2+, it's usually a 3+ or a 4+ because AP is very widely available. Which makes a mockery of their price. They're worth every point if you're rolling 2+ saves but they're quite squishy with 4+ saves.

    There was a thread that was quite interesting about this that I saw recently, where AP was moved to become a pierce roll. When your AP > 0, you roll a D6, add your AP and if that beats the ARM of the model you're attacking (including modifiers) then you pierce the armour and no armour save is allowed. If you don't pierce the armour then the unmodified armour save is allowed.

    So if you had AP 2 vs ARM 5, you rolled a D6 and add your and required a 5 or a 6 to pierce the armour. If the armour was pierced, then no armour save is allowed and if it isn't then the armour saves the wound on a 2+.

    I just thought it was an interesting concept.
    It is funny that we have the best defense ingame almost with 1+/1+/5++. Can any other character get as good as that?

    Sir_Sully wrote:

    Klexe wrote:


    Mmh DH character can get even 1+/1+/4++ with shield wall for 165 magic points.
    Still for magic points we have a great if not the best defense... But still I often feel weak and we die really really fast.... Can't really say why currently
    There is far to much AP floating around at the moment. I understand that every army needs to be able to deal with heavily armoured units, but basically every single unit combat unit can pretty easily get AP1 or more and any combat character worth their salt has AP4 or more.
    I'm starting to think that AP and Armour need a rethink at a game wide level. Our Armour save on knights is very rarely rolled at 2+, it's usually a 3+ or a 4+ because AP is very widely available. Which makes a mockery of their price. They're worth every point if you're rolling 2+ saves but they're quite squishy with 4+ saves.

    There was a thread that was quite interesting about this that I saw recently, where AP was moved to become a pierce roll. When your AP > 0, you roll a D6, add your AP and if that beats the ARM of the model you're attacking (including modifiers) then you pierce the armour and no armour save is allowed. If you don't pierce the armour then the unmodified armour save is allowed.

    So if you had AP 2 vs ARM 5, you rolled a D6 and add your and required a 5 or a 6 to pierce the armour. If the armour was pierced, then no armour save is allowed and if it isn't then the armour saves the wound on a 2+.

    I just thought it was an interesting concept.

    OK, the math on that is... lemme check.

    OK, so.

    For a 2+ save (ARM 5), vs. AP 2:
    On a 4+, no armour. So half (6/12) goes through. Of the remaining half, 1/6 goes through (1/12), for a total of 7/12
    So a 2+ save vs. AP2 takes more wounds (6/12 vs. 7/12)

    For a 4+ save (ARM 3), vs. AP 2:
    On a 2+, no armour. So 5/6 goes through. Of the remainder, half goes through. So 11/12.
    So a 4+ save vs. AP2 takes more wounds (10/12 vs. 11/12)


    It's more interesting if you have to beat their ARM by *two*;

    For a 2+ save (ARM 5), vs. AP 2:
    On a 5+, no armour. So a third (4/12) goes through. Of the remaining two thirds, 1/6 goes through (1/12), for a total of 5/12
    So a 2+ save vs. AP2 takes less wounds (6/12 vs. 5/12)

    For a 4+ save (ARM 3), vs. AP 2:
    On a 3+, no armour. So 4/6 goes through. Of the remainder, half goes through. So 5/6
    So a 4+ save vs. AP2 takes the same damage

    For a 2+ save (ARM 5), vs. AP 4:
    On a 3+, no armour. So 2/3 (8/12) goes through. Of the remaining thirds, 1/6 goes through (1/12), for a total of 9/12
    So a 2+ save vs. AP4 takes less wounds (10/12 vs. 9/12)

    So if you were looking to buff ARM 5 vs. AP, this would be a way to go.

    Background Team

  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    So if you were looking to buff ARM 5 vs. AP, this would be a way to go.
    I could live with that. There was a table in the thread showing the differences and in fairness it didn't make a huge difference for a 2+ AS. I wish I could find the thread so I could link it.....
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • Kratos wrote:

    I would still take the might duke because he is the only that he "does" what he "can". :P

    Making it more expensive we will just make the list drop points elsewhere. basically it will either drop a yeomen unit or 2 quest knights.

    I think it cannot be solved by points:

    questing, fortress, divine and might should not be possible.

    Then buff everything else:

    Nerfs in red



    Virtues
    • Renown -10 = 50
    • Valour -10 = 50
    • Daring -5 = 45
    • Humility -5 = 30
    • Might - 30 points = 70 Dominant
    Items

    • Divine Judgement + 5 = 85 Dominant
    • Tristran -10 = 45
    • Wyrmwood -5 = 40
    • Crusader -10 = 90
    • Faith of percival -5 = 65
    • Fortress +15 = 75 Dominant
    • Uther -5 = 50
    • Oriflame -15 = 70
    • Green knight -20 = 20
    • Black knight -25 = 60 remove Dominant
    • Crystal -5 = 25 remove Dominant
    • Wafers -5 = 20


    Characters


    Duke
    • Horse -5 = 65
    • Grail Oath add plate armour to Grail Oath same as you get bastard sword with questing oath. ( is this design? )
    • Great Weapon -10 = 0
    • Halberd -10 = 0
    Paladin
    • Pegasus -10 = 90
    • Grail Oath add plate armour to Grail Oath same as you get bastard sword with questing oath. ( is this design? )
    • Halberd and Great weapon -5 = 0
    Damsel

    • Starting for -40 = 80
    • Horse +20 = 60
    • Pegasus -30 = 30
    • Add light armour +5 = 5 ( is this design? )
    • Unicorn -5 = 95
    • Adept +20 = 95
    • Master + 20 = 245
    Castellan

    • Starting -10 = 70
    • Horse +10 = 50
    • All weapons Free


    Units

    Core
    • Peasant levy halberd and spear -1 = 0 ppm
    • Bowmen Starting points -20 = 150
    Special

    • Forlorn Starting -30 = 160
    • Forlorn ppm +4 = 29 (bigger more expensive after 17 models more expensive)
    • Grails -40 = 180
    • Grails ppm +5 = 87 (3-7 cheaper, 8 same, 9 more expensive)
    • Green knight -15 = 360
    • Yeomen ppm ppm -4 = 10
    • Yeomen throwing weapons -1 = 0
    • Brigands -25 = 150
    • Brigands ppm -1 = 12
    • Peasant crusaders -30 = 120
    • Peasant crusaders ppm -2 = 8
    • Sacred relic -20 = 130
    • Trebuchet -30 = 250
    Airborn
    • Pegasus knight -40 = 300
    • Pegasus knight ppm +25 = 120 ( 3-4 cheaper, 5-6 more expensive )
    • Pegasus knights vanguard ppm -2 = 5
    • Pegasus knights loose formation +2 = 5

    Just for me to understand if I have to keep buying KOE models or sell the ones i’ve Just bought: is the project view that the army should basically play without power house characters and also move towards a more MSU approach? Because the changes you indicated are exactly pointing in that direction since big units/lances will cost the same as now but small units will be cheaper.