Lesser Used Units - Free Testing

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  • Lesser Used Units - Free Testing

    Hi All,



    Quick Introduction if we haven’t spoken before, I am your new BH army support representative alongside @goatman

    So expect to see some new discussions from me about different elements/parts of the book, which you may have discussed previously, albeit under different rules versions, or meta changes as books change all the time. Anything you want to discuss send me a message I'll help all i can.



    I wanted to kick off with getting some feedback/interest in a list designed to play with many of our ‘weaker’ or ‘lesser used’ options.

    So can I ask you to give me unit choices/equipment’s that you feel don’t deliver as well as their counterparts, and I’ll try to wrap them into a list for practice games and possibly a tournament to give them a hard run out.



    To be clear this is not a ‘worst list challenge’. I want to know if there are unit builds/weapon options, Items that are really under used or not considered by you at the moment, that can be combined for testing and feedback without impacting your own lists.

    I will weave some units around these choices to attempt to make a balance to play games.

    I want to include elements from all phases of the game and models that cover all classifications to show them the 9th Age in all it’s glory.



    I will be trying the list out against some new/returning players to the game who played Fantasy previously. So, although experience is on my side, they will be net-listing and still play wargames so the standard isn’t total walk over.



    So anything you’d like to see played and reviewed that you don’t want to trial out in your own lists please for let me know. Even better if you have a role in mind for the unit.



    Yes I am talking about things like 10x Gargoyle aggro units, Double Jabbers, triple Briar Beasts, Minos without shields, only playing one of each monster type, All totem magic phase, Maximum MR combination, etc.



    Cheers,

    -Tim
    For more from me : @Enchantedbytim on twitter.

    Milton Keynes, UK

    ETC 2020 - Scotland XX Player
    ETC 2019 - Scotland BH Player
    ETC 2018 - Scotland VC Player
    ETC 2017 - Scotland OK Player
  • First of all, congratulation for this new job ;)

    Next : I really want to see a massive ambush list (wild horns + Mongrels + long horns + briar beasts) working.
    Discussion about our infantry units have crossed this board, I really would like to get, I think, the true essence of the army book

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Mirdhynn ().

  • I stand behind @Mirdhynn regarding army focus :)
    Then, going through the book, here I some of the elements I'd be curious to see in lists for I have not found how to include them in mines:

    Items:
    • Twin Hunger: I guess on a Beast (lord/chieftain) to get full benefit from the Lethal Strike? Or Mino WL/Chief to be like a mini-Gorghon with the HP recover? I tried a few times, got no proc, ignored it since then;
    • Obscuring Fog: I feel the Agi debuff is too small given the cost, malus on bearer's unit, lack of Arm boost... every time I considered the item this was also the first discarded to put points somewhere else;
    • Inscribing Burin: I always forget what it does, then read it, then ignore the item altogether.
    Spells:
    • Hereditary: I know there is a niche for it, but at spell selection it gets scrapped as other common spells appear to be so much needed.
    Units:
    • Centaur Chieftain: I usually play 1 or 2 but consistently get bad results, so I'd like to see some lists making good use of them;
    • Centaurs: Same as chieftain, I usually play centaurs (either in 2x9 units, 3x5 or 6, or anything inbetween) but they don't seem worth it, usually failing on basically any unit they engage aside from small chaff;
    • Centaurs GW: I keep forgetting the option even exist, so they deserve their own line in this list :)
    • Pig big units: at some point it was all the rage, my own attempts with it were terrible, now it seems to be the consensus. There may be something to do with an Evo shaman to give them the much needed reroll, considering they already have the strength and resilience.
    • Briar Beast: not sure how they can be included without being a waste of points. Inscribing burin could help, but no.
    • Cyclops: got sorely disappointed every time I tried them. Beside the not so common 3 cyclopses list, can they do well by 1 or 2?
    • Jabberwock: probably in some psychobomb list, or to facilitate combat breaking if we expect to win a fight by a small margin and the jabber happens to be within 24" of the melee at the start of the movement phase. Outside of that, most armies can simply ignore the aura and the Jabber in itself is just as threatening as 1 and a half razortusk.

    Tournament Analysis


    My armies: EoS / WDG / BH / HbE / O&G / DH
  • I hear you,

    Cyclops as 1's and 2's is not good, the chance of damage from shooting is worth the opponents risk and they don't deliver. 0 or 3 choice.
    I play 3 of these as my staple list so won't try out three's on this thread, and can confirm 1-2 are a waste already.

    Briar Beasts will be in a/the lists as I think the Hereditary their Fear, random move charges and the Jabbers could be a thing. (Not necessarily a good one, but a thing none the less)

    Centaurs, I will start small for you, then try them bigger with the weapon options. (I think the lack of armour prevent GrtWpns being useful, and their speed suits lances more.)

    Pig blocks, will also be on the agenda for sure, and will try a centaur character out with them as well.

    Off to a good start, I have some things to squeeze into a list for the weekend.

    Cheers,
    -Tim
    For more from me : @Enchantedbytim on twitter.

    Milton Keynes, UK

    ETC 2020 - Scotland XX Player
    ETC 2019 - Scotland BH Player
    ETC 2018 - Scotland VC Player
    ETC 2017 - Scotland OK Player
  • Before the goats players of this forum less a few said that all this was good when I said that they did not work and now that you see the ears of the wolf is when you say that these units have to be fixed,

    Well at least it's a start.

    the infantry is not going to be used unless it has fixed buffs through totems or by characters attached to it such as demons or counts, there are better options and wildhorns are not going to see with that s3 unless it is like small bunquer units , the longhorns should have weapon skill5

    The post was edited 1 time, last by clorens ().

  • clorens wrote:

    Before the goats players of this forum less a few said that all this was good when I said that they did not work and now that you see the ears of the wolf is when you say that these units have to be fixed,

    Well at least it's a start.
    Perhaps we should start optimistic and give him a chance, no?
    Put some water in your wine please.
  • Still trying to decipher your comment to so I understand completely.

    Not everything needs to be fixed, just uses found for them. I agree some things will need adjusting/redevelopment, but there is more in the book than just bulls and mongrels with Gortach and Minolord support. I want to give some airtime to some stuff and see if it sparks anything new for people.

    I assure you this is a format is just for me to try out the lesser used units as seen by the forum users and feedback for people that don't want to/have tried and failed to find use/intrigued by what can be done to make use of them.
    Everything can be good in it's situational ideal, the key is to create opportunity for more uses when the ideal is not there.

    Example for you.
    I took 1x Briar Beast to this ETC (the only one) as it balances me a little against elves which was a terrible match up for my list.
    But the one game vs elves I played it was mounted/trees list where the BBeast isn't as effective. (Team paired me away from elves)
    So in the other games i played the Bbeast was no use to me and I ended up summoning him late out of the game area to preserve points. In that case the BBeast was a waste a third Razortusk would have been a much better investment.

    But, if i had of played 3x Briar Beasts I would have had enough threat for them to be a real use in my games.
    So the unit itself isn't breaking, but three of them combined with out movement tricks are a real threat.

    The purpose here is to find a build/style of list to maximise the effects of this kind of unit, for others to replicate once it's more tested by someone else. I hope that makes sense, as to my purpose on this thread.

    It's worth a shot at least.
    For more from me : @Enchantedbytim on twitter.

    Milton Keynes, UK

    ETC 2020 - Scotland XX Player
    ETC 2019 - Scotland BH Player
    ETC 2018 - Scotland VC Player
    ETC 2017 - Scotland OK Player
  • because in that case start testing a block of 35-40 wildhorns

    If 3 briar beast will be are a enough threat they be used for the players ,3 pigs are best

    but if this is just to prove it, it is of little use if the rest of the players that are not in the forum continue to cling to the usual you said you were the only one with briar beast or ciclopes

    The post was edited 2 times, last by clorens ().

  • So update on some of the games played with the less useful units….

    Quick recap of the game setup:
    Intro game for a friend returning to wargames, first game of ninth.

    Playing 2,200 points of WotDG.
    Envy Warrior block, FC relentless company,
    Barbarian block FC flaming banner,
    Two adepts with some small items (all three lores used)
    Two warrior chariots,
    3 forsworn tooled up,

    Purpose of the game; show him every interaction I can of the 9th age, highlighting different rules, units, moves, psycology, phases etc etc. We played capture the Flags as a secondary with Dawn Assault deployment.

    My list, approx. 2000 pts
    Soothsayer Adept on Shamanism, MR2, + Hereditary Spell,
    Minotaur chieftain, grt wpn,
    19 Wildhorn, Shields, FC, Totem of Blooded Horn,
    40 Mongrels Spears, FC, Banner fo the Wild Herd,
    5 hounds,
    5 Centaurs, paired and throwing wpns, (played Sober)
    Briar Beast,
    Jabberwock,

    We played out every single possible aspect of the game I could think of, interacting every piece of terrain and combat combination (flanks/rear, steadfast, rally flee, vanguard, reforms, Musician impacted reforms, Bwpns, charges, random moves swiftstride, terror, fear, spell buffs, DT’s, Impact hits, stomp and Tstomp, 25% rally ½ discipline, failed charges, the works) After the game I thought about any interact we didn’t end up with and there wasn’t anything I could find in the book we didn’t get from the game.

    The game ended 17-3 to him, as I was playing in a way to create the rules demonstration and not to avoid fighting him, but I also had some major dice blowouts, like not catching a unit broken with the random mover of the swiftstride Jabber, who later lost combat on a flank charge into barbarians and lost combat and got cut down, breaking the Centaurs at the end of the game. Bunker charged out from the wall they were defending to die to Foresworn before I got rolled by a chariot in the flank anyway.

    Mission achieved, next game he plays we will increase to 3,000 points and try out things again, with another ‘go easy’ list and make sure he is comfortable with the game mechanics and rules before we step up to 4,500 points and he is unleashed on the other learning club players.

    ‘Bad’ units summary,
    Jabberwocks – low discipline cost it after I fluffed attacks and Tstomp into flank of Barbarians. (I did get the H spell on him for -3 to their discipline though, but lost the fight to static res….)
    BBeast – Not many good targets and the forest was away from the game given the small number of units played.
    Wildhorn Bunker/Combat ish at this level – bounced off the armoured Foresworn, needed the banner to get the strength required. (Or to pass Primal Fury)
    Sober Centaurs – showed off nice abilities in game, really useful unit, but fled after Jabber broke and then preserved their last wounds at the end.

    Not an ideal showing for a first wave, but some of this was dice restricted and the lack of BSB punished me at this points size.


    Second played game was with a variant of ETC list for our UK Master to get a practice game with an upcoming list. Nothing particularly of note there other than the dice blew me out of the game in T2. (Fled with 4 units (two involuntarily despite on good discipline with reroll) he caught 3 of them that turn after I fled 2/3/4/6” flee distances.
    Cyclops held in there to get me back in control of the game, until I greedily shot one with 1 wound left to finish last wound on a spider for the big win, and it dies and panicked off 900 unit on the objective. (with BSB in it)

    'Bad' Units summary,
    Cyclops need to get their wards vs misfire rolls please. Dropping a rock on a toe hurts but it is a hooved ‘foot’ after all that would have saved me the game despite a terrible start.
    Inscribing Burin also did a nice job in this game, stretching his magic and pretty much saving a Cyclops at MR5 at one point from my opponents' spells.


    More games to come for intro standard ahead to try out some things, and then we will have a think about a competitive event full of weird BH units.

    Cheers,
    For more from me : @Enchantedbytim on twitter.

    Milton Keynes, UK

    ETC 2020 - Scotland XX Player
    ETC 2019 - Scotland BH Player
    ETC 2018 - Scotland VC Player
    ETC 2017 - Scotland OK Player
  • clorens wrote:

    you should leave the mongrel with a spear at home so that this post makes sense
    Why?


    also: I really think you start to post positive comments. It is quite disheartening to read your negative posts in almost every thread. Complaining about same things over and over.

    personally I think you should just stop post about stuff you don't like and start to post about things you like. Or be quiet.
  • Hi All,

    Just to clarify this isn't just a combination of lesser used units, otherwise the lists would be made up of mismatched chaos with nothing of reliability to build around. Where I wouldn't be using BSBs, Adepts or Masters, command groups, at all making for poor performance no matter what is happening with unit selection in a list.

    I took the Spear block with a combat minotaur character as a core to build around.
    As you have stated that kind of unit is a staple, and something that others are likely to use, so having something like that to try to synergise with makes more sense than just taking random under used units with no "normality" to it.


    I intend to weave the requested units into lists alongside some more regular choices to allow them a chance to flourish.

    Cheers,
    -T
    For more from me : @Enchantedbytim on twitter.

    Milton Keynes, UK

    ETC 2020 - Scotland XX Player
    ETC 2019 - Scotland BH Player
    ETC 2018 - Scotland VC Player
    ETC 2017 - Scotland OK Player
  • Hi All,

    So looking at pulling together a list to play some of the suggested units less widely used.

    I will try out the below list on 1-2 games before making changes to the next iteration.
    General Idea here is to sit into a combat and bring a high volume of Static Res, and make taking less damage the priority, and win grinds on static then apply all the discipline modifiers to break targets.
    Spells such as -1 Res -1 Discipline from Evo, +1 Res on Shamanism, Two sets of Distracting Totems, should help this.
    Jabbers will then bring their modifier, this combined with Fear and the Hereditary spell should help get opponents discipline down to minimal levels.
    Big block of Razors should keep people from piling into me, and if they need to charge, with some buffs/hex into their combat should be a threat.
    Triple BBeast bring Fear, random move to help chase down enemies.
    Centaurs and hounds as chaff units.


    520 - Soothsayer, General, Evocation, Wizard Master, Dark Rain, Seed of the Dark Forest
    370 - Beast Chieftain, Great Totem Bearer, Battle Standard, Legion Standard, Legion Standard, Shield, Willow's Ward, Heavy Armour, Alchemist's Alloy, Potion of Strength, Lucky Charm
    290 - Soothsayer, Shamanism, Wizard Adept, Inscribing Burin, Dragon Staff
    664 - 47x Wildhorn Herd, Throwing Weapons, Standard bearer, Legion Standard, Musician, Champion, Totem Bearer, Gnarled Hide
    410 - 40x Mongrel Herd, Standard bearer, Banner of the Wild Herd, Musician, Champion
    260 - 20x Wildhorn Herd, Throwing Weapons, Ambush
    658 - 10x Razortusk Herd
    205 - 5x Centaurs, Paired Weapons, Throwing Weapons
    120 - Briar Beast
    120 - Briar Beast
    120 - Briar Beast
    80 - 5x Feral Hounds
    340 - Jabberwock
    340 - Jabberwock


    We shall see how it goes, I know it’s not the best setup, but it is designed to bring the most from the design. Nothing too strong, and given my local meta are all Fearless might not see too many benefits of this discipline impact, but combat res should get a runout.

    Cheers,
    -T
    For more from me : @Enchantedbytim on twitter.

    Milton Keynes, UK

    ETC 2020 - Scotland XX Player
    ETC 2019 - Scotland BH Player
    ETC 2018 - Scotland VC Player
    ETC 2017 - Scotland OK Player
  • With Shields is better for the plan yes I agree, although the threat to go super wide and chuck out a ton of shots is a nice trick to have in the arsenal.
    Likely to be changed to shields though if DS4 and distracting isn't getting the job done.

    Thanks,
    -Tim
    For more from me : @Enchantedbytim on twitter.

    Milton Keynes, UK

    ETC 2020 - Scotland XX Player
    ETC 2019 - Scotland BH Player
    ETC 2018 - Scotland VC Player
    ETC 2017 - Scotland OK Player