WTF moment when playing against Beast Herd

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  • Just_Flo wrote:

    Kapten Kluns wrote:

    Tbh this entire discussion sounds like the reverse discussion that was had about the old GDs that was deemed too powerful.
    What is funny to me is that the same suggestions that was given about handling the Scourge of old is now given about handling the Mino lord.
    I wonder why we werent able to keep GDs as powerful, if the Mino lord is deemed okay.
    I guess the Mino can't fly and is only so problematic for one army. One which has a lot of magic, ...
    And its about 450 points cheaper, but we both know that they are entirely different models. I just found it amusing that its the same arguments but reverse.
  • There you are correct. For me the classic is just flank it. As an answer for which angers KoE and all with which KoE angers others.

    For me it is the classic, because there it can be seen most easily, that whether the same answer to the same kind of problem is good depends on the army which should execute it. (And flanking is just easier for KoE than for others. That doesn'T say it is necessary easy for them but it is easier for than than for others.)

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  • Just_Flo wrote:

    There you are correct. For me the classic is just flank it. As an answer for which angers KoE and all with which KoE angers others.

    For me it is the classic, because there it can be seen most easily, that whether the same answer to the same kind of problem is good depends on the army which should execute it. (And flanking is just easier for KoE than for others. That doesn'T say it is necessary easy for them but it is easier for than than for others.)
    I think I understand what you said and I kinda agree.
    To me its more about flavour and DL has lost a bit in the character section with their characters being rather meh and much weaker then before.
    There are just so many characters in this game that DL cannot go toe to toe with.
    So the identity about DL having strong characters either needs to be fixed or förorten, because right now its far from there.
  • He's got no armour and no fortitude against flaming.
    Attack with Imps and Eidolons.
    Also, Eye of Dominance works only on Harnessed model parts, so attack it with cavalry : any mounted character, Titan-slayer Chariot, Sirens, Brass Beasts. With Incendiary Ichor should do wonders on Brass Beasts.

    And yes, Poison. You anyway need 6 to hit him in combat, so make it a « good » 6.
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  • Ghiznuk wrote:

    He's got no armour and no fortitude against flaming.
    Attack with Imps and Eidolons.
    Also, Eye of Dominance works only on Harnessed model parts, so attack it with cavalry : any mounted character, Titan-slayer Chariot, Sirens, Brass Beasts. With Incendiary Ichor should do wonders on Brass Beasts.

    And yes, Poison. You anyway need 6 to hit him in combat, so make it a « good » 6.
    problem is Imps and eidolons arent worth their weight in peasants (doodoo) :D . We dont really have any good cav except the decent brass beasts which cannot grind for their lives. Incendiary ichor is a problematic manifestation which isnt really useful in its current form as its easily countered.
    By my example taken from the ETC lists.
    1 imp unit.
    1 eidolon unit.
    One instance of Incendiary ichor through out all units being able to buy it, its just not good enough to compete.
  • Then that Mino build must not be that big a concern to DL ETC players.

    As a player of both armies, the affect of EOD on DL was not lost on me. I’ve applauded the build in the BH forums long before ETC this year. It is very shocking the first time you run across it, but once you find your counters, it’s just another niche tool...just very good against DL. Which is why we have rules in place to help against those large infantry types (Succubi and Fiends) to thin out its support. It’s no different than a Chaos Lord with Burning Portent, alpha carno build, etc.
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  • Ulricpriest wrote:

    youngseward wrote:

    Ulricpriest wrote:

    AlFiKa wrote:

    Best piece in the DL book to handle him is Omen on Throne of Overwheling Power as Omen then do not count as Beast anymore and ignores the Eye of Dominance.
    Oh contraire mon ami, eye of dominance works on beasts, cavalry and ... constructs...
    If its a multipart model, only parts with harnessed are affected.
    Ok, ok. That's a bit weird since the Omen is a beat itself but however:Omen does an average 1 wound to the Mino and then the Mino does an average 4.5 wounds back. If that is the best thing demons can do...
    Since he runs him alone, and you can tailor your army vs his, you can challenge him, the omen gets hammer hand, dextrous tentacles, brimstone and bronze backbone, now he looses 4 W first round, you loose 2, next round omen kills him before he strikes.
  • skipschnit wrote:

    Then that Mino build must not be that big a concern to DL ETC players.

    As a player of both armies, the affect of EOD on DL was not lost on me. I’ve applauded the build in the BH forums long before ETC this year. It is very shocking the first time you run across it, but once you find your counters, it’s just another niche tool...just very good against DL. Which is why we have rules in place to help against those large infantry types (Succubi and Fiends) to thin out its support. It’s no different than a Chaos Lord with Burning Portent, alpha carno build, etc.
    How would you compare these three characters compared to DLs characters? Honestly curious :)
  • skipschnit wrote:

    :P I already know that whatever my reply, it will not satisfy.
    Fair enough :) , Im not after a discussion if that helps. Rather im genuinly interested in your personal view as it might be just as subjective as mine.
    It might help me better to understand your personal view on the matter and I might get a better grasp on where you stand.
    All this because i feel like im doing some assumptions right now, which tbh isnt fair.
    Cheers :D
  • Kapten Kluns wrote:

    skipschnit wrote:

    :P I already know that whatever my reply, it will not satisfy.
    Fair enough :) , Im not after a discussion if that helps. Rather im genuinly interested in your personal view as it might be just as subjective as mine.It might help me better to understand your personal view on the matter and I might get a better grasp on where you stand.
    All this because i feel like im doing some assumptions right now, which tbh isnt fair.
    Cheers :D
    I’ll catch up with you on our offline chat when I get the chance. :thumbup:
    B. "Skunk Butt" Jones - Member of the CGL :oldmen:
    • YES! My conquest is complete! I now have every Army and my bias will be for Every L.A.B. to be great!. :thumbsup:

    DL/ADT - TT

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  • So we are making some progress here. The main suggestion is that I need to restructure my entire army to have a decent chance of dealing with the mino lord.

    So here is my suggestion: a single, 30 point item that forces the opponent to restructure the entire army to be able to deal with it is
    NOT BALANCED and has to be changed
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  • I've played against this Warlord ALOT of times, and it's absolutely horrifying.

    If you anything with a decent number of attacks and S with flaming/lethal you can probably kill him easily.

    But if you don't.. Oh man :P

    Pair it with Druidism and it's quite unkillable for many. Breaking the unit he is in is the best strategy I've found, not always the easiest though..

    Base S6, perma-hatred + Battle focus is a bit too strong IMO.

    But he's not flying, and he has Frenzy, so there are ways to try and play around him.
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  • Lagerlof wrote:

    I've played against this Warlord ALOT of times, and it's absolutely horrifying.

    If you anything with a decent number of attacks and S with flaming/lethal you can probably kill him easily.

    But if you don't.. Oh man :P

    Pair it with Druidism and it's quite unkillable for many. Breaking the unit he is in is the best strategy I've found, not always the easiest though..

    Base S6, perma-hatred + Battle focus is a bit too strong IMO.

    But he's not flying, and he has Frenzy, so there are ways to try and play around him.
    Maybe there is a bit of a misunderstanding. I am not talking about the Minotaur lord in general, fighting just any army. I am on about the mino lord with his stats and abilities being granted a 30 points item that makes him immune to close combat attack from an entire army!
    Eye of dominance should be Shaman only or be one use only better yet be completely reworked or removed.
    Why is anyone actually defending this item? I don't get it. So many trolls out there?
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  • Ulricpriest wrote:

    So we are making some progress here. The main suggestion is that I need to restructure my entire army to have a decent chance of dealing with the mino lord.

    So here is my suggestion: a single, 30 point item that forces the opponent to restructure the entire army to be able to deal with it is
    NOT BALANCED and has to be changed
    Well, maybe you can tell us what your army looks like, right now we produce methods to deal with the bull without knowledge of your army lis, so of course there will be some ideas that aren't included in your list.
    In my lists, I usually have 1-2 units of furies, and/or hounds, so I can redirect him pretty good, I also usually field 3 adepts or 2 adepts 1 master, and it is usually adept or master divination, adept witchcraft and adept evocation. So I have access to a couple of spells that can kill the guy. I also field brazen beasts with incendiary quite often, as I like the save vs fire more than I fear fireborn opponents; since brazen are cav, the riders can attack the bull at 4+, negating his fortitude save.
    So I field a couple of things in most of my armies that could deal with the guy, if I new my opponent will bring him, I would tailor my army accordingly.
    So if we new what army list you use, we could give better advice how your list can beat the guy, or at least keep the changes small.
  • @Ulricpriest in all honesty Im not sure how many opportunities the team has had to change Eye of Dominance since the DL rework make everything a beast.

    Maybe they actually agree with you but the update cycle hasn’t allowed them to change it yet.

    If you want some actual advice, rather than just to vent about the item (idc if you do, its your thread you can use it how you like) - Brazen Beasts with incendiary ichor should counter him well. The riders dont suffer the hit on 6s thing, and he has no save against them. They also outrange him so should be able to zone him pretty well.

    And if your brazen beasts keep him out of the game - your unit is less points than the Warlord so a net win for you.

    Not to mention, BB with II are just a solid unit choice in general so you’re not playing with a handicap in other games.
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    The post was edited 1 time, last by youngseward ().

  • Ulricpriest wrote:

    Lagerlof wrote:

    I've played against this Warlord ALOT of times, and it's absolutely horrifying.

    If you anything with a decent number of attacks and S with flaming/lethal you can probably kill him easily.

    But if you don't.. Oh man :P

    Pair it with Druidism and it's quite unkillable for many. Breaking the unit he is in is the best strategy I've found, not always the easiest though..

    Base S6, perma-hatred + Battle focus is a bit too strong IMO.

    But he's not flying, and he has Frenzy, so there are ways to try and play around him.
    Maybe there is a bit of a misunderstanding. I am not talking about the Minotaur lord in general, fighting just any army. I am on about the mino lord with his stats and abilities being granted a 30 points item that makes him immune to close combat attack from an entire army!Eye of dominance should be Shaman only or be one use only better yet be completely reworked or removed.
    Why is anyone actually defending this item? I don't get it. So many trolls out there?
    It reminds me of the 8th ed WHFB High Elf banner that gave the 2+ ward save vs magic attacks, and the entire DL army had magic attacks. It rendered a unit almost unkillable against a DL army, and it was usually thrown onto a unit like White Lions or something similar that was already strong.

    It's an example of either an item that was designed without fully considering the ramifications for who it interacted with other armies, or other armies were later designed with rules that didn't fully consider the existence of that item.
  • youngseward wrote:

    @Ulricpriest in all honesty Im not sure how many opportunities the team has had to change Eye of Dominance since the DL rework make everything a beast.

    Maybe they actually agree with you but the update cycle hasn’t allowed them to change it yet.

    If you want some actual advice, rather than just to vent about the item
    I fully support this post :)

    I am also happy to make tactics suggestions that do not depend on specific list choices if that is requested.
    I will not bother if the goal is solely to vent.

    Poke me if my input is sought and I will try to find time to say something coherent ^^
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