Community Brainstorm - Goblin Design Principles for LAB

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  • If the questions is do we need an unruly rule on top of loss dis my answer would be yes, however I think low dis with simple modifies could be very flavourful and simple. for example orc and goblins both have low disp say 6, and them give bonuses dependant on race say +2 disp for the following tests.

    Orcs could have the bonus to fear, panic and break tests.

    Goblins could have the bonus to all discipline tests that aren't Fear, Panic and Break tests.

    Im sure with careful selection of the exact numbers this could be impactful, flavourful and simple.

    That said I'm sure other rules could work too, I'm just saying I think you could create an unruly feel with just low discipline + modifiers.
  • By the way, I have to stress, because noone said it here, i think, that I really like the « Born to Fight » rule.

    The fact that is connected to Steadfast really well tie in the fact that Orcs fight stronger when they have superior numbers / high morale.
    It forces you to play to keep the bigger rank bonus no matter what, for example by Reforming at the right time from Horde to Closed ranks. Or choosing to fight with Shields with your Iron Orcs in order to preserve the ranks and hit at Str5 next turn, instead of hitting big this turn.
    Also, very bad to fight in Water or Forest terrain, gives a right feel of orcs liking to fight on stable ground.

    At first glance, it's a rule that looks like just a « flavour » or some little bonus, but it actually forces you to make choices based on the play with rank bonus and Stubborn rule.
    Interesting, fluffy rule.
    GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
    First T9A player in West Africa
  • I think the big problem with Discipline here is the name.
    You hear "Discipline stat" and you think "high dis = organised army, low dis = unruly mob," but mechanically, it's more akin to "high dis = functional warriors, low dis = fleeing civilians."
    Outside of restrain pursuit and march checks, it's almost always about bravery.
    Counter to the way that the rest of the discussion has gone, I'd argue we should be raising Orc & Goblin discipline, with the unruly equivalent being maximised roll on particular checks.
    Orcs having maximised roll on restrain pursuit and march checks, and Goblins having maximised roll on fear and break tests.
  • arwaker wrote:

    I think we don't even have to do such complex approach. Well, it is not complex, it is rather simple. But we could make it even more simple.

    Orcs and Goblins having DIS6 shows their Unruliness. +2 Panic and Break for Orcs shows their bravery. Maybe Goblins +1 for Rally. Rule end.
    That just continues giving orcs the prevalence in T9A. I do expect playable mono goblins. Because with that solution, orcs do not need goblins.
  • arwaker wrote:

    Orcs and Goblins having DIS6 shows their Unruliness. +2 Panic and Break for Orcs shows their bravery. Maybe Goblins +1 for Rally. Rule end.
    That could work.

    Maybe roll it into Born to Fight for the orc benefit, and Goblins get a rule called Sneaky! or some such where +1 to rally is a part of the effect, the other part is something else, like Insignificant where they count as Insignificant if their unit is larger(has more models) than nearby friendly units.

    Born to Fight
    The model part’s Close Combat Attacks gain +1 Strength and +1 Armour Penetration during a Round of Combat
    ● If it is the First Round of Combat.
    ● Or if the model part’s unit is Steadfast at the start of the Round of Combat
    In addition, the model gains +2 Discipline when taking Panic Tests.

    Sneaky...
    Units consisting entirely of models with Sneaky... is considered Insignificant by friendly troops with Sneaky... it does not outnumber it.
    In addition, the model gains +1 Discipline when taking Rally tests.
  • My two cents.
    All Orcs and Goblins have LD7 in their stats
    All Orcs have Str4 , AP0

    Unruly (This rule have all army)
    Redirect the Charge, Restrain Pursuit and March tests have -1 to Discipline.

    Born to Fight:
    A model with this rule lost the rule Unruly.
    This rule only have some characters, Eadbasher and Iron Orcs.

    That is all
    The Al-Qassar Sultanates (Homebrew)
    Halflings (Homebrew)
    Silexian Goblins (Homebrew)
    Feral Orcs (Homebrew)
  • arwaker wrote:

    Orcs and Goblins having DIS6 shows their Unruliness. +2 Panic and Break for Orcs shows their bravery. Maybe Goblins +1 for Rally. Rule end.

    Still feel like this is a clean and nice rule, low complexity and solves a lot of issues. Goblin and Orc generals become viable. No need for additional unruly stuff. It's great. I like minimized roll instead of a flat bonus, but doesn't really matter.

    Since we are brainstorming though...

    Unruly
    When a unit with the Unruly rule fails any discipline tests (including break tests), immediately roll a d6 before resolving the outcome of the failure. Apply the result:

    5 or higher: Gotta Fight Somethin'!
    - If the unit is in combat, immediately resolve d6 Grind Attacks against one unit in base contact.
    - If the unit is not in combat it is considered shaken until the end of Player Turn.
    - Ignore any further consequences of the failed test.

    2 or lower: Bad Juju:
    -Immediately make a flee move away from the nearest enemy unit. If this was the result of a failed break test resolve pursuit as normal. The unit is not considered fleeing after this move and can act normally.
    -Ignore any further consequences of the failed test.

    Majority Orc units get +1 to unruly rolls . Majority Goblin units get -1.

    This is an insane rule of course, overriding core mechanics. It is really interesting though because it changes fundamentally how the army plays with regards to low Dis. Sure, you want generals bubble on your units if you want them to actually do what you want. But it also means that low Dis isn't instant loss, just makes things very unpredictable. Failing a dis test suddenly becomes very interesting. Your unit of goblins might become spooked by a failed march test and fall back. Your orc unit might lose a panic test and instead of running away it starts fighting itself and becomes shaken.
  • setrius wrote:

    My two cents.
    All Orcs and Goblins have LD7 in their stats
    All Orcs have Str4 , AP0
    And you basically make spears the auto pick, so I’m not a fan, all weapon options should be viable.

    If the aim is to simplify rules I can see just making core orcs s4 ap1 and removing born to fight. But then are iron orcs/ mounted elite orcs just s5 on their profile?
  • Not sure, why spears are auto pick then. As long as the price is reasonable, I think all equipment options could be competitive. Imho S4 and AP0 makes sense for core Orcs. But I fear discussing Orc design principles is not very helpful as long as the planned background is not public.

    Well I think we have discussed Unruliness enough now. There are basically two factions of opinion: For some people it is enough to visualize Unrulyness with a low basic DIS value (combined with a special rule to make Orca somehow brave). The other faction would like to have an additional d6 roll based mechanic. We can sum it up as this, I think we will not come to a consensus here. I just want to remind people of limited design space.

    What I want to discuss now is the Warcry mechanic. Maybe not too specific at first, but more some basic principles:
    1) Do we want to expand the Warcry mechanic, do we want to keep it like it is or do we want to get rid of it (replace it with something very different).
    2) What should be the basic mechanic for warcry?
    2.1) One use only or conditional multi-use?
    2.2) General only or also with other characters or not liked to characters at all?
    2.3) Buy it or have it for free? Unlimited range or limited aura range from user?
    2.4) One Warcy like currently or have different variants to choose from (like Vampire power or Virtue mechanic). Different Warcry access for different characters?
    2.5) Buff effect only or also de-buff for opponent?
    2.6) Effect value attached to a battlefield condition (for example close combat, turn number, magic, flee etc)?
    2.7) Duration of effect only one turn or maybe conditional more turns?
  • arwaker wrote:

    ...

    What I want to discuss now is the Warcry mechanic. Maybe not too specific at first, but more some basic principles:
    1) Do we want to expand the Warcry mechanic, do we want to keep it like it is or do we want to get rid of it (replace it with something very different).
    2) What should be the basic mechanic for warcry?
    2.1) One use only or conditional multi-use?
    2.2) General only or also with other characters or not liked to characters at all?
    2.3) Buy it or have it for free? Unlimited range or limited aura range from user?
    2.4) One Warcy like currently or have different variants to choose from (like Vampire power or Virtue mechanic). Different Warcry access for different characters?
    2.5) Buff effect only or also de-buff for opponent?
    2.6) Effect value attached to a battlefield condition (for example close combat, turn number, magic, flee etc)?
    2.7) Duration of effect only one turn or maybe conditional more turns?
    All I want to say is that for me the mechanism seems well as it is for orcs at least. It shows well their eagerness to have a good fight. But I think that for goblins, something has still to be done. Perhaps something based on an extended combat bonus for each unit fighting in the flanks or rear of an enemy unit ?
  • arwaker wrote:

    What I want to discuss now is the Warcry mechanic. Maybe not too specific at first, but more some basic principles:
    1) Do we want to expand the Warcry mechanic, do we want to keep it like it is or do we want to get rid of it (replace it with something very different).
    2) What should be the basic mechanic for warcry?
    2.1) One use only or conditional multi-use?
    2.2) General only or also with other characters or not liked to characters at all?
    2.3) Buy it or have it for free? Unlimited range or limited aura range from user?
    2.4) One Warcy like currently or have different variants to choose from (like Vampire power or Virtue mechanic). Different Warcry access for different characters?
    2.5) Buff effect only or also de-buff for opponent?
    2.6) Effect value attached to a battlefield condition (for example close combat, turn number, magic, flee etc)?
    2.7) Duration of effect only one turn or maybe conditional more turns?
    1)
    I do like and and it is fitting (but wouldnt be upset to have it gone either). Yes one cold easily argue it's more for orcs but then again, there are armies of goblins, too after all. If it's supposed to be the equivalent of double-v-many-vocals-to-the-g-h of another game one use only is perfect.

    So the following assuming it stays in it's current theme (close combat enabler)
    2.1-2.3)
    However if it has nothing to do with the old background I could also see the following:
    Each Character (or maybe not shamans) give Warcry to their unit (maybe aura? probably not), here I'd be in favor of a permanent effect as marking which one of your 4-5 models has used its. Of course the effect should be less than the current one.
    Or not even characters but champions do it for their unit. Something like reroll 1's wouldn't be to powerful.

    2.4) I'd be in favor of one Warcry for all.
    A) Splitting all the rules for Orcs and Goblins will end up adding unnecessary complexity which could be used elsewhere (or do it proper and split the books completly)
    B) Having 3 different Orc Warcrys and 3 different Goblin Warcrys, heck no thanks.

    2.5) Buff. I don't see Orcs doing much debuffing and while I do see it for Goblins, not through a Warcry.
  • Gingersmali wrote:

    setrius wrote:

    My two cents.
    All Orcs and Goblins have LD7 in their stats
    All Orcs have Str4 , AP0
    And you basically make spears the auto pick, so I’m not a fan, all weapon options should be viable.
    If the aim is to simplify rules I can see just making core orcs s4 ap1 and removing born to fight. But then are iron orcs/ mounted elite orcs just s5 on their profile?
    Increase the price of spear in orcs.

    That is all
    The Al-Qassar Sultanates (Homebrew)
    Halflings (Homebrew)
    Silexian Goblins (Homebrew)
    Feral Orcs (Homebrew)
  • arwaker wrote:

    Shako wrote:

    B) Having 3 different Orc Warcrys and 3 different Goblin Warcrys, heck no thanks.
    Hm, could you explain this dislike a bit more, because that is exactly what I really would like to have.
    Lots of complexity for what I assume is little gain.
    As they're all supposed to be a Warcry there probably is some common ground between them. So if the mechanics are similar it will confuse people at times.
    On the other hand, if they're not similar then why are they all called X and its even more to learn for something you'll only see every 6th (!) time you're playing against OnG?

    I'm not saying it can't be done. But I think a good solution will be difficult to achieve and in the end I think the complexity can be used elsewhere for more effect than to differentiate the species in this regard.
  • arwaker wrote:

    Not sure, why spears are auto pick then. As long as the price is reasonable, I think all equipment options could be competitive. Imho S4 and AP0 makes sense for core Orcs. But I fear discussing Orc design principles is not very helpful as long as the planned background is not public.

    Well I think we have discussed Unruliness enough now. There are basically two factions of opinion: For some people it is enough to visualize Unrulyness with a low basic DIS value (combined with a special rule to make Orca somehow brave). The other faction would like to have an additional d6 roll based mechanic. We can sum it up as this, I think we will not come to a consensus here. I just want to remind people of limited design space.

    What I want to discuss now is the Warcry mechanic. Maybe not too specific at first, but more some basic principles:
    1) Do we want to expand the Warcry mechanic, do we want to keep it like it is or do we want to get rid of it (replace it with something very different).
    2) What should be the basic mechanic for warcry?
    2.1) One use only or conditional multi-use?
    2.2) General only or also with other characters or not liked to characters at all?
    2.3) Buy it or have it for free? Unlimited range or limited aura range from user?
    2.4) One Warcy like currently or have different variants to choose from (like Vampire power or Virtue mechanic). Different Warcry access for different characters?
    2.5) Buff effect only or also de-buff for opponent?
    2.6) Effect value attached to a battlefield condition (for example close combat, turn number, magic, flee etc)?
    2.7) Duration of effect only one turn or maybe conditional more turns?
    1) no, keep it simple. But if any change is needed, combine it with unruliness. So basically make it even more simple If you'd want to have both.
    2) A feral hearty cry to arms
    2.1) one use
    2.2) following up on 2.1, the general only. It's the general's choice to set the timing.
    2.3) free, see 1
    2.4) one, see 2, it should be the primal call of the warrior. Primal suggests that it can be understood by all and should just enhance instincts already there.
    2.5) interesting, both
    2.6) combine with unruliness if the combination remains simple, simple tome means it takes 30 seconds max to check and move on.
    2.7) tough one, since my demand is for a simple mechanic, one turn. Otherwise costing gets really hard to do.
  • New

    Sorry to back paddle a bit, maybe I should just make a new thread but what do people actually want to see changed in the FAB? more specifically what are peoples current issues with the book. I'm not talking about things that can be solved by simply adjusting points costs.

    Here are my thoughts:
    1. I really think the book is in a very good place at the moment I don't think things need changing massively and would actually be very sad if we got the DL treatment.
    2. I think some choices in the book could be easily simplified without loosing too much flavour, combining goblin profiles would be where I'd start.
    3. The goblin races feel very similar, I would love some reward for taking mono race armies, (yes this mildly goes against my last point but I really don't think the cave goblin stat-line is adding anything.)
    4. May be a controversial opinion but I am happy with the level of unruliness in the book, if you want to take a super random janky army this is still very possible.
    5. All goblin armies only have one choice for scoring, this could be fixed by giving trolls scoring, giving wolves a non-light troops scoring option, or my favourit idea adding a goblin big'un style upgrade that makes a unit come from special this could have very different upgrades depending on race. (cave: goblin unit upgrade giving wizard conclave/magic buffs, forest: goblin raiders unit upgrade poison shots, ambush etc, common: goblin raider unit upgrade giving lots of weapons options/stats, better armour, loose light troops gain scoring etc)
    6. Minor gripe but I think trolls can't be fixed with just fiddling the points cost, the reason being the current stupidity rules mean each unit of trolls you take is worse than the last as it is harder to keep them all in bubble. Hence coming up with a fair single price for the first and second unit is basically impossible.
    7. Other small fixes I'd like to see: gnashers cheaper and worse DS, DS4 seems wildly out of place IMO, give the wrecking ball giant rules so BtF works with its grind attacks, make the big wing actually a viable choice.
    I know this is a thread about goblins but It seems theres a lot of conversation about orcs too, I like some of the ideas in this thread but I'm just confused what problems they are hoping to address. For example suggestions like making goblins s2 ap1 or making orcs s4 ap 0 what perceived issue is this hoping to address? I do realise not everyone one will have the same issues as me.
  • New

    setrius wrote:

    Gingersmali wrote:

    setrius wrote:

    My two cents.
    All Orcs and Goblins have LD7 in their stats
    All Orcs have Str4 , AP0
    And you basically make spears the auto pick, so I’m not a fan, all weapon options should be viable.If the aim is to simplify rules I can see just making core orcs s4 ap1 and removing born to fight. But then are iron orcs/ mounted elite orcs just s5 on their profile?
    Increase the price of spear in orcs.
    That is all
    but whats wrong with the current set up?
  • New

    Gingersmali wrote:

    setrius wrote:

    Gingersmali wrote:

    setrius wrote:

    My two cents.
    All Orcs and Goblins have LD7 in their stats
    All Orcs have Str4 , AP0
    And you basically make spears the auto pick, so I’m not a fan, all weapon options should be viable.If the aim is to simplify rules I can see just making core orcs s4 ap1 and removing born to fight. But then are iron orcs/ mounted elite orcs just s5 on their profile?
    Increase the price of spear in orcs.That is all
    but whats wrong with the current set up?
    Nothing, it's only a brainstorm.

    That is all
    The Al-Qassar Sultanates (Homebrew)
    Halflings (Homebrew)
    Silexian Goblins (Homebrew)
    Feral Orcs (Homebrew)