[LAB] Gathering Ideas for Lance formation

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  • [LAB] Gathering Ideas for Lance formation

    Greetings Knights!

    In this thread we want to gather YOUR opinions and ideas about the Lance formation for the LAB (Fully reworked KoE book).
    Please keep in mind to NOT go into concept designs!

    We want "broad strokes" how you envision the lance formation.

    This thread will be moderated! I will delete post if we drive too much into concept design (some concept is fine to show your vision)


    So it is your chance to help us to help you to give you a perfect KoE book in the future!!

    Happy gaming

    Your ACS Team


    PS:
    All people with tag will most likely post their own ideas and not a internal idea. My, yours and random person x opinion is a valuable as an "RT" guys opinion :thumbup:

                    

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  • Maybe start by looking at historical inspiration?

    Interestingly, the actually French Lance fournie isn't made up of a team of knights, it's one heavily armored knight and his support troops. A few men at arms, with similar equipment (heavy armour, lances), and then their light cavalry flank protection and the infantry and support personel they require.

    It's basically all the men commanded by one knight.

    This could either go in the direction of allowing smaller, more independently operating units, or of allowing some kind of mixed unit of heavy cavalry in the front rank, and lighter, non-knight cavalry in the back to provide cheap rank bonus.
    A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

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  • I envision it as a concentrated formation, being able to put a lot of pressure in every infantry formation and cutting through most of them, not breaking them necessarily but going thorugh them so that the knights can aim to repeat the process again, probably from behind if there is not enough support in the backline. It encompass our playstyle, concentration of force to defeat superior numbers, as we are few in numbers, but powerful in the charge (and subsequent turns of combat).
  • Eldan wrote:

    Maybe start by looking at historical inspiration?

    Interestingly, the actually French Lance fournie isn't made up of a team of knights, it's one heavily armored knight and his support troops. A few men at arms, with similar equipment (heavy armour, lances), and then their light cavalry flank protection and the infantry and support personel they require.

    It's basically all the men commanded by one knight.

    This could either go in the direction of allowing smaller, more independently operating units, or of allowing some kind of mixed unit of heavy cavalry in the front rank, and lighter, non-knight cavalry in the back to provide cheap rank bonus.
    We had this idea somewhere sometime ago.

    Problem with current rules what stops the enemy killing the support units behind the heavy units? Would need a special rule but great to hear this idea again!

                    

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  • My point of view:


    Having different typs of formation.
    1. one for breaking (see current) with heavy CR stacking but low dmg
    2. one for dmg with very low CR but high Impact
    3. one for grind (the plain 5 wide from Rulebook)


    Edit: if only one formation is wanted: 4 wide. 3 wide will be too expensive

                    

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  • I mean, you didn't want to see rules, but I imagine you could easily write a rule such as "Test against the toughness, armour and aegis of the front line, but remove support models from the back" or somesuch.
    A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

    MAKE THE SWARM COWARDLY AGAIN!
    WE DEMAND TERRIBLE LEADERSHIP!
    DOWN WITH COMPETENT GENERALS!
  • Lance formation should be a cavalry formation, designed to make our knights units more effective at killing infantry on the charge and putting pressure into enemy close formations in combat. After losing a round of combat, the lance formation can no longer put the same pressure and could potentially become less optimal, making us thinking into reform into a normal formation for better grind.

    Also it needs to be a tool of force concentration so we can strike with combined charges in order to destroy our enemies in a coordinated devastaring charge
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  • While "the lance" should be available to all mounted units, for the sake of balance it could be limited or changed for other units that we need to be killy or agile or whatever. The lance formation is not something carved in stone for me as long the army can use cavalry as a strenght.
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  • if i hear lance formation i ´m thinking about a massive charge of massive armed unstoppable Knights.

    Something like first in small front , then after charge bringing more Knights into CC cause there charge ended.

    First round damage high after that the Knights are using handweapons to do there bloody work.

    maybe put in units of 10 or more models can´t be breaked in first round or something like that and out of this a + on first round damage.


    Charge(+ High Damage):

    xxx
    xxx
    xxx
    xxx


    After first round of CC(Damage are getting lower cause first round Damage are lost)

    xxxxx
    xxxxx
    xx

    And this as must rule.

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  • I mean, a rule where you fill the back ranks of your lance with cheap troops and the front rank with knights would also mean you could put more knights on the table, because you'd be saving points. That's a kind of force concentration, right?
    A summary of all proposed ideas from the VS LAB brainstorm thread

    MAKE THE SWARM COWARDLY AGAIN!
    WE DEMAND TERRIBLE LEADERSHIP!
    DOWN WITH COMPETENT GENERALS!
  • I think Lance formation should be about cutting into the enemy formation similar to how @Kratos has mentioned. On the charge and while the momentum continues the cavalry has the advantage but once the momentum of the lance is halted the infantry should have an advantage.

    I love the aesthetic of the 3 wide formation as it makes KoE unique and clearly identifiable on the field (regardless of models). Changing this to anything else is either less distinctive or so complex that there are significant issues that are not addressed in the core rules. From my perspective, I’d much prefer to lose the aesthetic and go 5 wide than have a horrifically complex rule using up our complexity budget.

    The Lance formation is our tool to break steadfast and I worry that without it we would struggle in our current form. Imagine needing 10 knights in a flank or rear to break steadfast? We’d never break a peasant revolt, let alone a large unit of decent infantry.

    I also think that Lance Formation should be Army Wide as it's what sets us apart from normal cavalry. Without Lance KoTR are no better than their EoS counterparts (and are worse against a lot of targets) which is untenable.

    I don't like the idea of more than one unique formation because this will be too expensive as we'll have to pay for the best scenario for each formation. In reality you're only going to deploy in one formation and are unlikely to change mid movement phase for the best outcome - it's too costly. And if you charge 4 wide you cannot legally combat reform to 3 wide. This limits our capabilities.

    NB: I’m fully aware that this is for the LAB and there’s an argument that we can also make knights more killy to compensate for the loss of Lance. The issue with that is that the killing potential of Knights is capped by the just human brigade and I think we’re on the edge of that potential as it stands. Lance formation addresses that balance because we don’t need to kill as many enemy models to break them. My point here is that we need to be careful with the rules on this point as I feel it’s unlikely that we will get core knights that are better than what we currently have (although they would be cheaper).
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  • Lance formation should have impact attacks base. I mean lets be fair here, you went into a lance formation to break through lines at a concentrated points. There should also be a rule that if you peel away enough wounds, you pop out the other side of the unit.
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  • Grouchy Badger wrote:

    Lance formation should have impact attacks base. I mean lets be fair here, you went into a lance formation to break through lines at a concentrated points. There should also be a rule that if you peel away enough wounds, you pop out the other side of the unit.
    That would be the advantage of "each unit get their own lance formation".


    For example:
    aspirants get zero = cheaper
    Realms = as now
    Questing could get impact hits but dont have fight in extra rank



    Having it as army wide rule looks good as people will read it first but the advantage of having it as special rule for each unit is also great.



    Other way is:

    Lance formation = 3 wide and nothing else

    + add special rules to unit entry

                    

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  • Grouchy Badger wrote:

    There should also be a rule that if you peel away enough wounds, you pop out the other side of the unit.
    I don't actually like this idea. I appreciate that it's a cool and (potentially) fluffy idea but I think that it's very complex for what it brings to the table. Once you've popped through a unit you're now facing away from the main battle line and so you use a turn lining up your next charge. I see it being very difficult to use effectively and I don't think we need to increase the difficulty level required for KoE.

    There's also a lot of interactions to solve with this as well. Just for starters:
    What if I don't want to pop through the unit?
    What if there's no space on the other side?
    What if the other side is off the battlefield? And what if there's no space to bring the unit back on?

    There are also problems with slower armies (i.e. infantry armies) as they'd actually be unable to catch us while we just pop through units and then line up the next charge. I appreciate that they can strike back but it would be difficult for them to beat us if all our attacks are high strength due to charging.

    Marcos24 wrote:

    Make it an optional upgrade per unit, among other formations. That would take care of it becoming too expensive
    Which will mean it will be priced to be taken as often as it isn't taken making it exactly like praying now for the extra blessing is now. That makes me feel that Lance formation (or any other formation) would be an optional extra rather than a key part of the Army. If we're going to have a unique formation it should be a key component for the army.

    I'm not happy that Praying for the Blessing is no longer a key part of the Army as although it gives us a choice its a poor choice. Essentually we have to choose between overcosted knights or letting the opponent go first. That's not a fair choice.

    Lance formation would be the same. I can choose between being able to break an infantry blob, or not being able to break an infantry blob.... If you don't meet any infantry blobs, that's great, but when you do - you're screwed. It would just become a victory tax and because we'd all be taking it (because it's mandatory to break infantry) it will slowly increase in price. And because it's a unit upgrade, we wouldn't even get more killy knights as compensation because we can take Lance formation.

    I wouldn't be against different units using different formations (built in - not as an upgrade), but I think the complexity we'd need to make those formations worthwhile would be better used elsewhere.
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    The post was edited 1 time, last by Sir_Sully ().