Discussion on overarching vision of HbE

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  • My_Kin wrote:

    jack of all trades is such a derogatory term for balanced playstyle.

    I hate this stupid idea to make every army have some specialised playstyle like a league of legends character. They should be less specialised, more capable of different styles, it doesn't matter if there's overlap, it makes it less rock paper scissors. It's not a video game where you can effortlessly drop one army and play another, people should be able to play their models in multiple ways, and let's face it it's the models that attract people to armies not playstyles. It would also lead to less skewed lists, and more balanced ones which frankly make for more fun games.
    Well it's not about being Super Specialized. It's more about having something unique/iconic in a certain area. The armies would indeed be boring if you could only play that one specialized playstyle.

    My_Kin wrote:

    and let's face it it's the models that attract people to armies not playstyles.
    This is highly debatable. Models attract people to collect the army.
    How much they play the army depends on the playstyles.
    And alot of us have multiple armies so if every army has nothing unique about them then what's the point in having 16 armies books? ...just reduce it to 5-6 books. All the elves could be merged. Some people might complain about the names of units but that is easily solved by putting multiple 'fluffy' names in the unit entry.
    Very similar to kings of war.
  • My_Kin wrote:

    jack of all trades is such a derogatory term for balanced playstyle.

    I hate this stupid idea to make every army have some specialised playstyle like a league of legends character. They should be less specialised, more capable of different styles, it doesn't matter if there's overlap, it makes it less rock paper scissors. It's not a video game where you can effortlessly drop one army and play another, people should be able to play their models in multiple ways, and let's face it it's the models that attract people to armies not playstyles. It would also lead to less skewed lists, and more balanced ones which frankly make for more fun games.
    This is the best comment ever! I 100% agree. Would make it more fun and easier. Various options in some armies are suffering from the "no overlap" "must specialize" problem, causing models to be invalidated and pushing armies into specific builds, which gets boring after a while - leading to less interest in the game overall.
  • It's hard to get there after 13 pages of discussions.

    In my opinion, there are several causes for the book's problems, I will try to structure my thinking.

    Hbe is an army with R3 figures, with armor between 6+ and 4+ and "elite" figures up to 29 points for a queen's guard. Most of our units are standard size infantry, so they suffer all types of damage possible in the game, regardless of power.

    Magic: from f2 with 1 point of PA our 25 point figures risk dying easily, what about the fire domain...

    Shooting: all elves fear the weakest weapons from f3 onwards the damage can be significant as talking about war machines.

    Fight: impact that ignores our initiative, since the attacks 2 which hit our "elites" on 4+ and wound on 4+ given our weak protection these figures below 10 points are excessively effective against us so our so-called high defense is useless, the monstrous infantry that saturate us with attack, and the stomp attaques that also ignores the jets to hit.
    Combat is the game phase where our army undergoes the most changes in v2.

    In my opinion, adding armor will not solve all HBE problems. Moreover, if a player wants a big armor, resistance and pretty figurines, other armies are already doing that.

    Elves in general are distinguished above all in my opinion by their skills.
    The V2 has brought a new table to touch in which it takes 4 difference between attack and defense in favor of defense to be hit on 5+.
    Our elite elite elves against offensive 2 were hit on 5+ during v1 and now it's 4+ problem.
    It has been 2 years that our elite units (or swordmasters) remain between 28 and 30 points to be touched on 4+ by figurines below 10 points.
    The V2 also brought us new features why not increase the defense of some elite units to 6? This would increase the survival of these units, usefully brought in a phoenix frost.

    the impacts and stomp attacks are very strong against all the infantry in the game, I don't know if this is really price included in the price of the figurines. Maybe there is a general problem amplified by the fact that elves have expensive infantry figurines.

    I will stop there for today, there are so many things possible.

    I think each player has his own vision of the army.
    Our book today does not lack much, to give back to the elite units their true status, some units still too expensive despite the drops, to make the phoenix usable (this is not a question of points).
    And work a little on the characters.



    My galery
    Lord of the Hobby: Quickstarter Highborn Elfes
  • Just like many of your players want to remain “elite” and “magical” etc etc and whatever else most of you guys usually claim, other armies want to maintain their unique characteristics. So if you truly don’t want overlap, you’ll have to accept that less eliteness in some units, and higher weapon skill, agility, magical prowess, in other armies will be come acceptable because I agree, the closer armies are to each other the easier it is to balance, but I still prefer making each army as unique as possible. Some factions have too many units though
  • Marcos24 wrote:

    Just like many of your players want to remain “elite” and “magical” etc etc and whatever else most of you guys usually claim, other armies want to maintain their unique characteristics. So if you truly don’t want overlap, you’ll have to accept that less eliteness in some units, and higher weapon skill, agility, magical prowess, in other armies will be come acceptable because I agree, the closer armies are to each other the easier it is to balance, but I still prefer making each army as unique as possible. Some factions have too many units though
    For sure, the problem is that HBE are not elite nor magical. Quite often you find that opponents units are flat out better than yours and HBE magic is somewhat middle of the pack.
    My gallery: Adam painting stuff (HbE, VC and lots of terrain)
    My battle reports: Adam Battle reports
  • arwaker wrote:

    Like for example SwordMasters having lower stats, but cheaper and be a core unit? Hm, interesting.

    Why not! I am not closed, we must not get stuck on the distribution of the old world.
    Even if for me the characteristics of the Swordmarter are the closest thing to the characteristics that elite elves must have.
    It is true that our core units other than highborn have only strength 3.
    The most important thing is to finally have a book that is pleasant to play.

    Next battle I test the prince queen's companion with the boots and the option fae miasma
    My galery
    Lord of the Hobby: Quickstarter Highborn Elfes
  • I would love HbE and elves in general to get a bit more elite, even if that would mean a few less models on the board.
    It's not that we have plenty of spaces left on the board anyway so cavalry can encircle our opponents (6 x 4 foot is still a very small battlefield).
    So .. I would love the army to become more compact and efficient.

    For example I hope we'll get something like (optional) elven bows, for HbE and perhaps for SE too, with shorter range but more S or AP.
    I mean; there are shots 2 S4 AP2 QTF guns for few points which can be devastating at short range. In comparison most S3AP0 bows are really quite silly and ineffcective. So let's say 18 inch range, S4 AP2, Very nice for Reavers or optional on Sea Guard. Far mor efficient.

    So HbE will become the best armoured but also static elven race, so be it. Then a bit more compactness so we can utilze space a bit better would be great, like a SiER banner or even better; Fleet Officer that gives it to its unit. And perhaps a good idea to give it the option "When used as BSB the Special Item allowance of Fleet Officer is increased by50 pts." Because that's the major annoyance weakness of commanders: not enough allowance to take extra protection and a banner.

    Talking about magic items: since 3 categories of magical items are combined into restricted talismans it doesn't happen a lot that my (non OoftH) mages use their magical allowance because everything they can use is two talismans. Perhaps the experienced and crafty centuries old HbE smithies can invent armour and weapon upgrades that enhance magical power, like armour that grants a veil token or a weapon enchantment that gives +1 to cast on all augment spells.
    If Defensive is the new key word perhaps it's a good idea to give some MR to some items, like the Demons Bane. Or on cheap mage armour so it helps the unit, say +1 AS and +2 MR.
    + :WDG_bw: :HE: :SA: + This forum need polls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Grand frere wrote:

    *snipped*
    You just described the "elf problem". It's been a recognized issue for all the elf armies for YEARS. Yes, having VERY expensive Res3 models that are very poorly protected is a recipe for failure. There's a reason none of the well to do Dread Elf ETC lists and other tournament lists include elite infantry. At the end of the day, having a unit have a 1/6 chance of folding on T1 before you can move (6 to hit on a stone thrower) is too much of a risk. Highborn Elves have the least "elf problem" noticeable thanks to other defenses, but still have it.

    Nobody is asking to have Super Resilient, High Armor, High Res basic elves. All we are asking is to have an army that can function "As Advertised". That's . . . not quite the case right now. The biggest issue is that the way the army functions: "KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM" (Prince Dimitri, Gronder Field), is being given to Dread Elves as their "Battlefield Philosophy". So we need to figure out a niche for ourselves.

    Marcos24 wrote:

    Just like many of your players want to remain “elite” and “magical” etc etc and whatever else most of you guys usually claim, other armies want to maintain their unique characteristics. So if you truly don’t want overlap, you’ll have to accept that less eliteness in some units, and higher weapon skill, agility, magical prowess, in other armies will be come acceptable because I agree, the closer armies are to each other the easier it is to balance, but I still prefer making each army as unique as possible. Some factions have too many units though
    See, I agree that armies should have their own "niche" and uniqueness. However, that does have to have some wiggle room. Elves suffer from this more than any other army because there are THREE elf armies that all have similar functioning units (e.g. Tower Guard = Blade Dancers = Sword Masters. . . OR Lion Guard = Dread Judges = Wildwood Rangers) as well as having a similar baseline for their elves. Most of the other armies that have similar baselines (e.g. ID and DH) lack a lot of functional similarities, OR they have functional similarities (e.g. VC and UD) but have differing baselines. So either the project has to relax the "all armies must be very distinct" (Which is a bad idea) or its "Elves can only be bloodthirsty berserkers that wipe everything out". Since the former isn't happening, the latter is likely where HIGHBORN will have to go because DE are going to be the psychos and SE are going to be the "DOGPILE" team.

    So while that means HE will be more into other territories that are traditionally seen as non-elven (e.g. armor, which is arguable because they tied for 5th on votes), it also means they will be less into ELF territory. This is, in a way, a form of uniqueness. Short version, I agree with what you are saying, but will recognize that this does not simply apply to "non-elf factions". Elves must be distinct from each other. One way to do this is to take the elf faction with above average defensive measures (e.g. Flamers, Fur Coat Models, Heavy Conniptionry in Core, etc.) and leaning into it to provide differentiation among the elven factions (one is damage dealing, one is highly mobile, one is damage negating) while stressing these differences to other factions in varying ways (such as levering the elven profile or having options that are more suitably elven available like the Navigator Banner).

    Adam wrote:

    For sure, the problem is that HBE are not elite nor magical. Quite often you find that opponents units are flat out better than yours and HBE magic is somewhat middle of the pack.
    Yer gonna have to show your citations on that work, bruv.

    arwaker wrote:

    With spears/seaguard for muchas low-S attacks, Swordmasters(or whatever name, Citizen Greatswords?) for high-S attacks in core. And elite with Flame Wardens for many low-S attacks and Lion Guard for high-S attacks.

    Hm, seems reasonable having low-S and high-S each in core and in elite.
    Question, how is this different from building "focuses" or niches for units in Core, Special, Ancient Allies, etc.?
    E.g. Anvils = Spears, Flamers, or some Ancient Allies unit. Hammers = Swordies, Lancers, Dragons. Zoners = KoR vs. Fire Phoenixes, etc.
    ???

    Teowulff wrote:

    I would love HbE and elves in general to get a bit more elite, even if that would mean a few less models on the board.
    It's not that we have plenty of spaces left on the board anyway so cavalry can encircle our opponents (6 x 4 foot is still a very small battlefield).
    So .. I would love the army to become more compact and efficient.

    For example I hope we'll get something like (optional) elven bows, for HbE and perhaps for SE too, with shorter range but more S or AP.
    I mean; there are shots 2 S4 AP2 QTF guns for few points which can be devastating at short range. In comparison most S3AP0 bows are really quite silly and ineffcective. So let's say 18 inch range, S4 AP2, Very nice for Reavers or optional on Sea Guard. Far mor efficient.

    So HbE will become the best armoured but also static elven race, so be it. Then a bit more compactness so we can utilze space a bit better would be great, like a SiER banner or even better; Fleet Officer that gives it to its unit. And perhaps a good idea to give it the option "When used as BSB the Special Item allowance of Fleet Officer is increased by50 pts." Because that's the major annoyance weakness of commanders: not enough allowance to take extra protection and a banner.

    Talking about magic items: since 3 categories of magical items are combined into restricted talismans it doesn't happen a lot that my (non OoftH) mages use their magical allowance because everything they can use is two talismans. Perhaps the experienced and crafty centuries old HbE smithies can invent armour and weapon upgrades that enhance magical power, like armour that grants a veil token or a weapon enchantment that gives +1 to cast on all augment spells.
    If Defensive is the new key word perhaps it's a good idea to give some MR to some items, like the Demons Bane. Or on cheap mage armour so it helps the unit, say +1 AS and +2 MR.
    See, this feeds into the point @Marcos24 was making. You can't just say "Well, this would be great for my faction". F'rex, those "bows" you described are basically short range guns. SO. . . . no. I agree with the idea of "Highborn Elves could stand to be more compact and efficient". Heck, we scored higher than WARRIORS in "Numbers are a weakness". I disagree with a lot of the strategies that you propose for it (such as give elves guns, just buff armor up, etc.).

    There are MANY ways that we can lean into being more compact and elite that do not consist of taking things that do not belong on elves (such as firearms) and calling them "Elven".
  • Aenarion43 wrote:

    See, this feeds into the point @Marcos24 was making. You can't just say "Well, this would be great for my faction". F'rex, those "bows" you described are basically short range guns. SO. . . . no. I agree with the idea of "Highborn Elves could stand to be more compact and efficient". Heck, we scored higher than WARRIORS in "Numbers are a weakness". I disagree with a lot of the strategies that you propose for it (such as give elves guns, just buff armor up, etc.).
    There are MANY ways that we can lean into being more compact and elite that do not consist of taking things that do not belong on elves (such as firearms) and calling them "Elven".
    Must agree my writing wasn't very coherent. Still there's many ways to give expression to highborn elves as "the pinnacle of elven defensive abilities" as mentioned in the Revised Dread Elves Army Book Design Guidelines.

    Now extra defenses is only one thing, even if it can be worked out on different aspects like magic resistance, evasion, armour, special saves etc.
    RT Polls: I wonder when we can and can not use the ASAW results as "Numbers are a weakness"? Then Speed and Maneuverability (ability to change direction) should be high on the agenda as well, as they were #3 and #5. Which seems to contradict the stance that HbE shoud be static and proposals to get bonusses when not moving. What RT results can still be used, if at all?

    I would like to keep in mind that there is design space to radically change stuff, like was done in the WDG AB. A total rework of favours, the special items were redesigned for the most part, Hell-Forged Armour and Trophy Racks were invented .. the cannon got transformed into a portal casting engine. Not a lot was the same after the redesign.

    Also not sure what you like or dislike from my proposals except the shortbows (which were a way to enhance medium arms fire, something that was proposed mutiple times by the management before as an extra HbE strength). Otherwise extending the Queen's Guard to 30-35 models would be great too, in my opinion as shooting is kept limited by the Queen's Bows allowance anyway. Compared to 84 crossbows from DH core that can't possibly be overpowered.
    And I didn't even make an actual suggestion to raise armour.

    Wouldn't you at least agree that more multipurpose magic stuff (+1 armour, +2 MR for instance, or Fleet Officer get +50 allowance - or a SiER banner (max 3 rows)) would be a good step towards helping the army get more efficient and compact?
    + :WDG_bw: :HE: :SA: + This forum need polls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!