Pinned 2.1 Beta - Feedback on the Units

This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

Our beta phase is finally over. Download The Ninth Age: Fantasy Battles, 2nd Edition now!

  • 2.1 Beta - Feedback on the Units

    Hello guys !

    Here is the new thread dedicated to the feedback on our units.

    I will try to summarize it all and deliver it to the RT on a regular basis.

    Please be consistent and explain why you share it, a good feedback needs to be constructive!

    Message to be send to RT:

    Characters:
    • Exalted Herald is seen as being still too expensive, the price was justified when it had access to shamanism, and wizard master (with 4 spells). Losing some of those power the price should drop a little more (from what I heard most people expect it to be 800 max).
    • Chosen Lord of Envy on War Dais with Burning Potent: that character was the main target of the update and might have been raised too much... we speak of a raise around 70 points for a single character that has to be the general. every single part of this build was raised in price, the total seem to be way too high for it to survive... This build was often played but mainly because of the lack of alternatives. Others OP characters were not nerfed that hard even for T1 armies (Vermin Daemon going up by 15 points). That characters is our tool to fight big monsters and mounted characters, we have no ranged attack to do so... Burning potent raising after each patch is seen as too much ...
      Is it possible that the algorithm considers all those upgrade has too popular and raise each single one of them, rather then granting the total model a +20-30 price raise (that would seem appropriate).

    • Doomlord is seeing a huge point raise on the spike shield, does the algorithm take into account that the doomlord is able to wield a shield with a heavy weapon or halberd (thanks to Master of Destruction) and that the shield usage should thus be close to 100%?
    • Veil Walker is still seen as too expensive, would be ok if it was free to use, but the cost of a veil token brings trouble, you can have better spells but that means your opponent will have bigger chances to counter your magic phase... (comparison: 60 points for Arcane knowledge: gives +6 range on spells and same effects as the magical heirloom without taking an artefact slot and only being 10 points more expensive...). If you think about it this way it might need a serious price drop...
    • Shrine option for the sorcerer is seen as too expensive, puts a huge target on your sorcerer's head and you reach 800+ points quite fast for something that is much less powerfull then a Vermin Daemon or any other GD (taking the VD as reference since other see no play), it lacks mobility (and survivability) to be an effective mount choice at the current price.


    Core:
    • Barbarians still seem not to be competitive yet, the large base is a huge disadvantage for them, sure those are cheap but the size of the units goes against their use. People also complain against the huge price of the full command group for the low possibilities the unit brings.


    Special:
    • Chosen Knights are seen as way too expensive, nobody fields them... (some people actually tried but regret it). They are not seen as worth their price and people still do not understand why units of 6 are not allowed.

    • Chosens raising in price is something the community does not like, those are the iconic unit of our book and somehow are getting a price raise because people like to field them. That is something no algorithm will think about.

    • Forsworns are another real problem; their raise is going to have a huge impact on the WDG playstyle, those are the only real anvil we have, it seems normal to see a bigger use of that unit compared to the other special units available: not a single other special unit has a pure defensive role in the army. The raise on the unit price should be cancelled, the spike shield price hike is something that is not welcome but that people could live with.

    • Wretched Ones are a phantom unit, nobody plays them, one guy tried and got awfull results at the ETC. In order to become a real alternative those need to drop more then what is scheduled. Units of 6 should be below the 500 points, those are non scoring... (Comparing them to hoarders is easy: -1W, -1T, -scoring, -fear, Fortitude vs Aegis, +random movement... it just cannot explain the price being so close...). With the current rule set, something around 80 points per model seem to be a better option. (Their price is lowering slowly since the start, I do believe we can dare a bigger price drop on those, that is if we want to see them as a true unit and not as damnation leftovers).


    Legendary beasts:
    • Hellmaw price upgrade was expected, seems the update was lower then expected; many players still find this "beast" to be something that does not suit our book tough (imho it would have been a nice tool for an auxiliary book but is too game breaking to be in any official armybook). Higher price raise on this one would probably be enough to lower the average power of the army, I'd need to assess the results of the armies with and without hellmaw at the ETC to confirm it (average point per match of wdg without hellmaw: 8.9 at the ETC).

    • Feldrak Elder is making people laugh, only one seen on the field is the paired weapon one, the -10/+10 will not help that monster to become more popular.

    DL / WDG Community Support

    Playtester

    The post was edited 4 times, last by Rothulf ().

  • Special Items

    special_item_Burning_portent 130 -> 135
    special_item_Veilgate_Orb 15 -> 10


    Characters & Mounts

    Exalted Herald
    Exalted_Herald__base_cost 850 -> 835

    Chosen Lord
    Chosen_lord__lance 20 -> 10
    Chosen_lord__envy 25 -> 45
    Chosen_lord__gluttony 25 -> 15
    Chosen_lord__greed 30 -> 15
    Chosen_lord__pride 40 -> 30
    Chosen_lord__damonic_wings 90 -> 80
    Chosen_lord__entropic_aura 60 -> 50

    Chosen_lord__idol_of_spite 60 -> 70
    Chosen_lord__war_dais 60 -> 80

    Chosen_lord__black_steed 120 -> 110
    Chosen_lord__karkadan 95 -> 80
    Chosen_lord__scythed_skywheel 120 -> 100
    Chosen_lord__chimera 170 -> 155
    Chosen_lord__wasteland_dragon 390 -> 370


    Doomlord
    doomlord__Spiked_shield 25 -> 50
    doomlord__paired_weapons 10 -> 5
    doomlord__halberd 30 -> 25


    Sorcerer
    sorcerer__dark_chariot 65 -> 70
    sorcerer__scythed_skywheel 70 -> 65
    sorcerer__wasteland_behemoth 365 -> 340
    sorcerer__wasteland_dragons 425 -> 400


    Barbarian Chief
    barbarian_chief__base_cost 115 -> 110
    barbarian_chief__shadow_chaser 75 -> 70

    barbarian_chief__war_dais 50 -> 55
    barbarian_chief__dark_chariot 115 -> 120

    barbarian_chief__chimera 165 -> 160
    barbarian_chief__Wasteland_Behemoth 375 -> 365


    Feldrak Ancestor
    feldrak_ancestor__base_cost 685 -> 650
    feldrak_ancestor__great_weapon 30 -> 20




    DL / WDG Community Support

    Playtester

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Rothulf ().

  • Let me start with two things:

    Barbarians
    I am surprised that they were not touched (except the GW thing). I had the impression they are very much underrepresented in the lists. ETC list analysis gave them roughly a presence in every second list, which is a good number - but most of the times it is just a chaff block of 15/16 Barbarians. From my perspective only 4 list fielded real Barbarian units (e.g. more than one unit or more than the minimum size + some spare points). Which I would call an underrated presence - did not calculate how much points of core were invested into Warriors/Fallen/Hounds/Barbarians - but think that ratio would clearly show that barbarians are not an alternative to Warriors/Fallen.
    Would love to see a drop in the additional model to 6 or cutting costs for command by half. Adding another 60 points for some command is quite expensive especially given their fragile nature.

    Choosen Lord of envy on Dias
    +35 points (inkl. Potent) - autsch!
    Is this build too good in comparison to the other armies ? Probably not otherwise WDG would be top tier (Patch Update). That would be for me a valid reason to "sanction" the build so hard (perhaps VS demon will get hit even harder got the same nerf, but being one tier higher).
    Yes it is played very common, too common to have a good mix of out there. I think to increase the cost of that single build so drastic is the wrong way. From my perspective the common usage of that build is just a representation of a not so good alternatives which provide also a solution to a common problem: Choose your fight and do not die while having few options to deal with MW Large stuff (while being prone to stomps). As WDG can have only a single lord most times the character must be mobile (envy) while being able to handle MW things (Potent) and get a good save (Dias)
    Especially under this aspect the point increase on the Hell maw portals is contra productive.
    If you want to decrease the usage of the Envy CL with Potent on War Dias the point in crease can be part of the solution. But on the other hand mobile alternatives should be buffed. E.g. Reduce cost for Hell Maw incl. Portals, reduce base cost for Knights. Reduction for other mounts is good in this context.

    Flayers
    Start to look attractive :thumbup:
    If you do not like 9th Age - fine, it is your right to do so. But do not spoil our fun - go and find your game, be it AoS, 5th Edition, Magic or Dublo

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Uthegen ().

  • personal consideration on lord , karkadan and burning:
    Tl;dr: we have nothing except burning to deal with multiwound, hence the burning spam.
    Every army that is allowed to use them spam,them more or less (we have no shooting phase, reiterating it for the-27473877 time).

    Burning raise cost means no ts4+ or no ts2+ fire.

    No saves means expensive lord is susceptible to alchemy (and other bolts etc)

    Karkadan price decrease means we can choose between karkadan and war dais.
    Different purposes, same price.
    One 3wounds mov7, other 4wounds mov5.
    Wounds wins imho.
    Watch out: 5ck costs almost 800p , 20/24warriors costs way less.
    Ck has biggest footprint.
    Easy to chaff, difficult to cover/hide, easier to unprotect the lord.
    Dais wins again.

    Karkadan vs horse: same wounds, same res on lord, otherwise bettter on unit. horse half footprint, better unit armor but less hp. Whatever, horse and warrior knights wins imho, better customization for the costs.

    All in all, taking aside the almighty algorhytm and data, ck are a no use for optimization. Imho they should deserve a change in price since we CANT change rules.
    Would make chosens marks free break them? Is there any overused mark?



    No rule change is really difficult to avoid.
    But in case i would try to give them spiked shield regardless the foot rule. For the same price ofc
  • chosen point hikes on envy, wrath & halberds is annoying and have further solidified my opinion that I won't take them.

    core warriors going up 5 points isnt the end of the world but I dont feel it was necessary

    forsworn hike is ridiculous, they exist only to ferry the doomlord and are totally useless in combat on their own merit

    Doomlord price hike was expected, his shield is very good against the right targets but I wont be using doombus anymore, it's too expensive and without hellmaw (which I'll never use and would rather was deleted) is tough to get where needed

    FDA price drop was nice, its getting there almost

    FDE price drop should have gone -10 on halberd too, paired is the only real option

    Dais & portent envy lord increase is a bit much but I knew it was gonna get batted so didnt use it anyway

    All in all the patch was OK, if it stayed as it is I wouldn't mind too much. If it sees further nerfs I'd be a bit disappointed
    Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

    Pics of my ever expanding warriors army

    WastelandWarrior Painting League 2019

    WastelandWarrior Painting League 2020
  • Characters

    Exalted Herald - price drop is not enough. He got a huge price increase, then was nerfed hard, but the price didn't change. It should be priced around 800 pts, 1.75% price drop is a joke.

    Wasteland Dragon on CL - price of the only usable Dragon CL build was raised by 25 pts, price of dragon was lowered by 20 pts, so, actually, Dragon Cl was nerfed in this update. Was it supposed to be like that? It deserved a bigger price drop.

    Sorcerer on Battleshrine - no price drop, seriously? Battleshrine mount has bigger price than a regular one, and the only thing it gives you is the ability to replace one of your spells.

    Items

    Veilgate Orb - price wasn't lowered enough to worth its price. 5 points would be a deserved price. P.S. Whoever thought that it would be a good item - I hate you.

    Surprised that there is no drop on Immortal Gauntlets and Icon of Infinite.

    Special

    Feldraks - why the price for additional models was raised? I don't get that, they are not a popular choice anyway.


    Everything else looks fine to me.
  • Characters:
    Display Spoiler

    • Exalted Herald: Feels overpriced, Swiss Army Knife he is not.
    • Chosen Lord: Feels like the overall points increase is a bit too much - raising the cost of Envy Dais with Portent and Idol of Spite by 65 points seems a bit excessive, I would like to see 10 points drop on all gifts. Karkadans as a mount are becoming a thing in lists that spam these, yet "normal" build still seems not worth it. Still haven't seen a viable build with Chimera, Black Steed also seems to not exist.
    • Doomlord: Haven't played with it. (does not fit my current approach to the WDG)
    • Sorcerer: Feels fine.
    • Barbarian Chief: Feels fine.
    • Feldrak Ancestor: Still Paired Weapons are natural choice for this guy, feels like this will not be fixed with points. Denial of flying movement seems like a strong drawback, loosing 1HP for breath seems even more punishing




    Core:
    Display Spoiler

    • Warriors: Pricing of Favours is really off in my opinion, feels like all (well, maybe most) of them should drop by 2 points (let's call it "To a minimum of 1", but some still feel as barely playable even if they would be free), considering the extra 30 points required to grab it in the first place. After testing several builds, Greed is simply the best choice, giving most bang for the buck.
    • Fallen: Haven't played with them. (does not fit my current approach to the WDG)
    • Barbarians: Haven't played with them. (does not fit my current approach to the WDG)

    Special:
    Display Spoiler

    • Barbarian Horsemen: Haven't played with them. (does not fit my current approach to the WDG)
    • Warhounds: Haven't played with them. (does not fit my current approach to the WDG)
    • Warrior Knights: Similarly to Warriors, Favours' pricing is quite ridicoulus, Greed seems best.
    • Warrior Chariot: Feels fine, haven't played with them. (does not fit my current approach to the WDG)
    • Chosen: Haven't played with them. (does not fit my current approach to the WDG)
    • Chosen Knights: Feels overpriced, haven't played with them. (does not fit my current approach to the WDG)
    • Chosen Chariot: Feels overpriced, haven't played with them. (does not fit my current approach to the WDG)
    • Chimera: Feels fine.
    • Wretched Ones: Haven't played with them, feels useless (albeit it's possible that there's a viable build with Wretched and Forsaken Ones, and Lord of the Damned)
    • Forsworn: Haven't played with them. (does not fit my current approach to the WDG)
    • Feldraks: Havent' played with them. (does not fit my current approach to the WDG)
    • Battleshrine: Feels fine.
    • Flayers: Feels fine, haven't played with them. (does not fit my current approach to the WDG)
    • Hellmaw: Haven't played with them. (does not fit my current approach to the WDG)
    • Forsaken Ones: Haven't played with them, feels useless (albeit it's possible that there's a viable build with Wretched and Forsaken Ones, and Lord of the Damned)
    • Marauding Giant: Feels fine, haven't played with them. (does not fit my current approach to the WDG)
    • Feldrak Elder: Feels fine, but same as FDA - Paired Weapons are superior most of the time.

    Items:
    Display Spoiler

    • Burning Portent - 135? Haven't played with one since the update, sometimes I miss it, but then I read the price again, and I'm good.
    • Symbol of Slaughter - Feels fine.
    • Thrice Forged - Feels fine, albeit the Towering Presence restriction really seems to be hurting possible Chimera builds.
    • Gladiator's Spirit - Feels fine.
    • Zealot's Banner - Feels really underpowered, usually Rending Banner will be a better choice.
    • Icon of the Infinite - Feels underpowered.
    • Wasteland Torch - Feels fine.
    • Ledge of Souls - Haven't played with it. (does not fit my current approach to the WDG)
    • Immortal Gauntlets - Feels fine.
    • Lord of the Damned - Feels useless, but that's because I don't like Forsaken and Wretched Ones.
    • Wyrd Stone - Feels meh.
    • Veilgate Orb - Feels fine.

    "Upgrades":
    Display Spoiler

    • Trophy Rack - Feels fine, but more of the time I would still prefer BSB :(
    • Veil Walker - Now that's a joke. For 100 points I cannot justify it, discarding tokens feels like too high of a price. I would be more inclined to use it if costed at 150 points, simply allowing to pick the additional effect.


    Yes they drink blood. Yes, some of them have been known to command armies of the damned. But at least they're not Elves.
    - Niles Valera, Agitator
  • last feedback.

    I abandoned dais and basically almost all the expensive setups after patch.

    Kept the hellmaw with 1gate.

    Friends pov
    Eh is still overpriced. But "must have" to play unburnt lists.

    Fda is huge on paper but whatever u do, if it s aimed it gets 2wounds per turn more or less. Suprlernat and paired is the only way to go.

    Unburnt flee too easy with no disc help (outside eh attribute)

    Core became minimalistic msu to objectives.

    Shrine costs but is resilient.

    Hellmaw is at the edge of playability due to cost raises.

    Giants are meh.

    Knights are quite forced to be played since laternatives are too much expensive .

    Personally i would list 24/7 a chimera if i could but list options put it out.

    Wdg items excluded the evergreen ones, are meh.
    Im forced to play burning portent cause i see not many options against multiwounds
  • My few cents. Will say only that was not mentioned before.
    Mount options for barb chief feels a bit too high when it comes to price.
    Behemoth for sorc priced in a way forces people to run him as cheap as possible, usually with only weapon option that makes sense on him - namely Herro's Heart. Right now behemoth is completely inferior as mount option when compared to shrine, and shrine is already seen as overpriced.
    May I suggest, that since our sorc dont get his item allowance based on master status, but only a general status, can we have at least some discounts for big mounts when you run master already.
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - reborn be my childhood army
    DL - side project
  • -hero

    -FDA is ok

    -Ok DL

    -EH slightly overpriced
    considering his "opponents" both as choices in the book and as a comparison with the other magicians monsters..

    -CL good state, chimera mount slightly overpriced.

    -barbarian hero, good state in general

    -sorcer, ok, battleshrine mount overpriced a lot

    Core

    Barbarian is ok

    -Warior base is strong, slightly underpriced
    weapon option is overprice in general (gw/halabard)
    the spike shield remains the best quality / price option overall
    is there any way to give up the shield to buy discounted weapons ???

    -Barbarian cavallery, good states, ok

    -dog is strong, slightly underpriced

    -fallen is ok

    Special

    -warrior carriot ok
    -chosen carriot slightly overpriced

    -battleshrine slightly underpriced

    -knights is ok

    -CK overpriced..
    I don't know if it's a design problem or a local meta, 5 CK cost around 750/800 points, they still have r4

    -forsworn p/model underpriced

    -chimera is ok

    -flayers shild/lance and p/model is overprice for a use different from that of chaff

    -feldrank for me they remain too risky and linked to EH. For me they are still too expensive (weapon and point / model), but I know that many do not share my thoughts

    -Chosen base cost underpriced
    P/model slightly overpriced
    Wrath overpriced :O

    -Wretched Ones p/model overpriced, 6 forsworn wuith ga or spike shild or damnation is better overall

    Monster

    Single hellmaw is overpirced (not token, base cost)

    Gigants club for gigant is overpriced

    -Fde overprice (no reroll acces foe hit/break test)

    -FO is ok
  • Chosen Lords seem only competitive in very few specific builds. Some of the Favours are never taken, and I don't know if they would even if they were free.
    All mounts that don't allow a safe bunker (so all but WarDais and Black Steed) should be made cheaper, as in other case you are paying for being very vulnerable.
    Doomlord is fine, but his unit got a price hike, so it will harm him indirectly
    Sorc and Barb is fine
    Feldrak Ancestor is still too expensive. Double costing special items should go away too...
    Exalted Herald is also overpriced after last nerfs.

    Warrior's price going up is funny, I expected them to go down not up... Especially favours nobody touches should go down, even be free - you are paying for them with more expensive champion + reduced max size
    Barbarians need redesign, but since it is impossible, they should go down in price or have 20 starting size at current cost
    Fallen are fine

    Warhounds are too expensive for something so unreliable.
    Barbarian horsemen are ok, maybe little too expensive, but they should be core from the start, not from 8 models...
    Flayers are getting there, maybe should have shields included in price
    Chimeras seem fine for what they bring.
    Chosen price hike was unnecessary, they only see play because of hellmaw - so if hellmaw is more expensive, chosen cost should be left untouched. Some favours are too expensive, nobody even considers them.
    Chosen Knights are much too expensive and do not bring anything unique to the army - bunch of S5 attacks which we have plenty.
    Chosen Chariot - never seen one used, never wanted to use one. Too expensive.
    Forsworn - spiked shield price increase is ok, but increase of cost of unit is not
    Feldraks were hurt by the lack of bsb, lesser reliability should be cheaper
    Battleshrine price increase was expected and is fine
    Warrior chariot is ok
    Warrior Knights are fine, except some rarely used favours - those should be cheaper
    Wretched Ones... step in right direction, not there yet

    Feldrak Elder, too expensive for something without any combat oriented skill (ok, unburnt sometimes help, but very rarely) - all other monsters I can think of have battle focus/hatred/impacts/multi wounds/breath attacks. Since redesign is impossible, only price can save him.
    Forsaken One - is in sweet spot I think
    Giant - only one that did't get decrease on Big Brother, so you can say it's unique...
    Hellmaw - increase was expected, so I think it is fine.
  • EH - almost there, maybe 15 pts less

    FDA - maybe a little decrease further, but fine

    Chosen Lord - i guess okay. dont agree at all that he's overpriced. would make entropic aura cheaper. could be more expensive and people'd still take him - spiked shield should be a little more expensive (20 pts), chimera a little less

    Sorc - fine

    Doomlord - no idea

    Barb chief - no idea

    Core is fine, maybe a little less expensive favours and a very little more expensive base warriors (but only minute changes)

    special

    Feldraks fine

    Chosen and Chosen knights overpriced, little discounts and they are fine. Especially Chosen favours are too expensive.

    FDE fine, maybe slight discount

    Dogs too cheap

    Flayers fine

    KJnights fine

    Hellmaw fine

    Wretched ones and Forsaken ones need more tentacles. otherwise no idea actually.

    All in all mostly fine, just minute finetuning. Mounts are always tough to get right. We have so many different list that find success!
    Don't forget to bring a towel!