VS 2019 balance update discussion

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  • Bogi wrote:

    @ValourUnbound are you up for making a scatter graph between points scored at etc and the price drops/rise, or even just a table, to see what correlation there is? SE had great correlation with the lists doing the worst getting the most point drops and vice versa.
    That shouldn't be too hard, I'll see what I can whip up.
    Please leave your assassins at the door.
  • Here's the table, I put it behind a spoiler because the forums table formatting is... a thing.
    Display Spoiler

    TeamPoints changeScore
    Argentina16434
    Australia20581
    Austria15065
    Belgium4551
    Bulgaria16049
    Croatia23088
    Czech Republic16848
    Denmark23053
    Finland19525
    Germany16569
    Ireland21060
    Italy21445
    Luxembourg19985
    Mexico6072
    Montenegro16076
    New Zealand23050
    Norway15042
    Portugal17547
    Scotland11553
    Serbia20513
    Spain17087
    Sweden11070
    Switzerland1364
    Ukraine11052
    USA22052
    UN14048
    Wales17043



    And some plots.
    Raw data:


    Normalized to the average score/points change
    Please leave your assassins at the door.
  • Every VS list will start with 2x catapult anyway. They provide way more tactical edge than their points suggest.

    Possibly it's still 2x doomwheel too.

    Such lists will have 1 unit of redirector less, whcih anyway was hard to use efficiently due to VS putting 200 models on table.

    Capaults should be somewhere around 225 to consider bringing only 1.
    my ETC 2019 roster
    750 - High Prince on Dragon, Dragon, Great Weapon, Obsidian Rock
    565 - Mage: Asfad Scholar, Master, Divination, Book of Meladys,
    485 - High Prince: Queen's Companion, General, Spear, Sliver of the Blazing Dawn, Destiny's Call, Longbow, Moonlight Arrows
    280 - 20x Citizen Spears, MC
    190 - 5x Elein Reavers, Bows
    662 - 27x Sea Guard, MSC, Banner of Speed
    360 - 5x Knights of Ryma, M
    180 - 3x1 Sea Guard Reaper
    663 - 21x Lion Guard, MSC, Banner of Becalming
    4500
  • There doesn’t seem to be any significant correlation between ETC success and points impact to list.

    In part this proves out that ETC is just another event, albeit a big one, and no longer has a material impact on the balance data. It also suggests that the patch has tried to focus more significantly on internal balance than external as a way to pull VS back into tier alignment. This feel like the correct approach imo.

    I am confident the beta period will prove-out some of the further adjustments which may need to be made around VG and other less used entries. Nice work RT! :)
    "The combination of lemon and habenero peppers was confusing to me. I will pay for this tomorrow i think." - Rosanjin Scholar, Iron Chef
  • Furion wrote:

    Every VS list will start with 2x catapult anyway. They provide way more tactical edge than their points suggest.

    Possibly it's still 2x doomwheel too.

    Such lists will have 1 unit of redirector less, whcih anyway was hard to use efficiently due to VS putting 200 models on table.

    Capaults should be somewhere around 225 to consider bringing only 1.

    Furion, sir! - I am not sure I agree. Against lists like yours double-catapult is great, but against so many other armies they are kind of "meh". In team tournaments you might still see double catapult because they hard-counter some armies (HBE, KOE, DE and a couple of others depending on the specific build, but they under-perform against a lot of other builds). So, if we are talking singles I think you are going to see far fewer catapults with this price change.

    Double Dreadmill on the other hand? Yes, I think those will still be very common. Nothing else in the army is very good at zoning out the enemy. For a generally slow infantry based army they just add something that nothing else does. Maybe in some monster-mash lists you will not see them as Monstrous Rats and Abombs could perform a similar role? I'm not so sure about this, but we will see.

    Either way, if I had to guess you will see less catapults, but still as many Dreadmills.
  • Warpfodder wrote:

    Eisenhans wrote:

    I really can't see the downside on this so called nerf.
    Before:

    Magister; General, Master, Thaumaturgy 350
    Chief; BSB, Sceptre of Verminous valour 195
    Tyrant on Monstrous rat; Heavy armour with Ghostly guard, Shield, Paired weapons and tail weapon with Hero's heart 485
    2x Tyrant on Monstrous rat; Heavy armour, Shield, Great Weapon 385
    60 R@A; Full command, Spears, Banner of the endless swarm 635
    52 R@A; Full command, Aquila of ruin 524
    2x Meatgrinder 150
    2x Abomination 375
    4 Thunder Hulks; Champion, Meatgrinder 485
    Total 4494

    After:
    Magister; General, Master, Thaumaturgy 350
    Chief; BSB, Sceptre of Verminous valour 195
    Tyrant on Monstrous rat; Heavy armour with Ghostly guard, Shield, Paired weapons and tail weapon with Hero's heart 455
    2x Tyrant on Monstrous rat; Heavy armour, Shield, Great Weapon 350
    60 R@A; Full command, Spears, Banner of the endless swarm 570
    52 R@A; Full command, Aquila of ruin 514
    2x Meatgrinder 145
    2x Abomination 360
    4 Thunder Hulks; Champion, Meatgrinder 470
    Total 2264

    100 points more to spend on characters, 75 points more in core (which I'll have to figure out since it's kind of a problem).
    2230 is good savings from a single point update :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
    Being tired and excited really does wonders for my math skills :D (should be 4264) Still an awesome saving.
  • ValourUnbound wrote:

    Here's the table, I put it behind a spoiler because the forums table formatting is... a thing.
    Display Spoiler

    TeamPoints changeScore
    Argentina16434
    Australia20581
    Austria15065
    Belgium4551
    Bulgaria16049
    Croatia23088
    Czech Republic16848
    Denmark23053
    Finland19525
    Germany16569
    Ireland21060
    Italy21445
    Luxembourg19985
    Mexico6072
    Montenegro16076
    New Zealand23050
    Norway15042
    Portugal17547
    Scotland11553
    Serbia20513
    Spain17087
    Sweden11070
    Switzerland1364
    Ukraine11052
    USA22052
    UN14048
    Wales17043



    I meant score on the x axis and point change on the y. It looks like no correlation there at all.

    I also had no catapults and will not have them from now, they are still good but are useless some matches, and in reality who needs help beating infantry? They are good against KoE but who has trouble beating KoE? Jezzails are better in every way and can be used as chaff.

    Will jezzails and catapults get a third choice now? Thunder hulks have become viable now? Let's hope there is a third choice with this uodate. Main VS build is dead so now.... can we still compete?
  • Hugely disappointed with the update.

    - Vermin Guard yet again have been overlooked.... we've been waiting 4 years for them to be a proper option (besides as rod waving bunkers)
    12/13 pts for extra models needed if their stats/rules do not change. At this stage I'm resigning myself to just fielding my beautiful VG as spear rats (probably mixed in with them) A depressing outcome to say the least, but i've completely given up hope. ?(

    -5 pt drop on Gutter blades? They have been extinct since this project began. I'd consider a unit for 150 with scout/ambush, not at 165.
    Grenadiers probably cant be fixed with points after the 5 simultaneous nerfs they received, they need at least 10'' range IMO. I would rotate a unit in at current rules, if they were 155pts or less just to mix it up, and because I love the models.

    Why are the 'buffs' so conservative when everyone knows our internal balance is woeful? these two units have hardly been fielded. How many Grenadier units were there out of 270 lists? it was either 0 or 2 from memory, and the last time I've seen Gutter blades was during the End Times.


    I still wont even think about the machinist at 160 I find him a complete waste at those points, but a few people seem to like him.

    The majority of our special items are sadly useless and 5 point drops are not going to help. The Seal of the House Underminer has not been used in a single list, yet did not change? I mean if it was free I'm not sure I would even use it every game. 10 pts for the laugh and a chance to make a cool custom terrain piece? yea why not. A rework to be at the same level as the Wasteland Torch is the other option. The only thing I got even remotely exited for with this update was the Doomblade+pot of swiftness combo, until I saw the Pot's price rise.

    If you want us to switch from Pendulums/Disciples/double dreadmills/min size chaffing core (which I badly want to) then the alternatives need to be better than they currently are. Grenadiers/Gutter blades/meat grinder/hulks/thunder hulks/vermin guard. This update has done next to nothing to entice me to take more of these.
    The price jumps on the usual suspects are what they are, but we will still use them over the terrible alternatives....believe me when I say I badly want to use something else other then 2-3 x14 Disciples, but their price rise and paltry 5 point drops are not going to entice me to spend the points elsewhere. Disciples have carried this army for me since Beta 1.3 I wish Verminguard/grenadiers/gutterblades etc could take some of the work load of them but alas...

    Monstrous Rat riders got a decent discount, I'm happy for the guys who play them. I myself field my Daemon every game because the model is precious to me. After that I get to choose one between the Pendulum or Abom and then the Built and Bred category is already full. So no rat rider option for me unfortunately, but they do look quite good.

    I dont really care about Naptha throwers, but thats how you boost an unused unit, dropping from 175-150 is a proper discount. Compare 30x VG with trimmings dropping from 600-590 or 5 scouting gutter blades 170-165?? ?(

    I will still ignore slaves unless the min price drops quite a bit. Last time I used them was when 25 were 90 points. I wont spent 145 on a min sized unit.

    There is also a long term typo in the Magister entry 'May take a Doom Bell (Wizard Master only)' :rolleyes: I was told by the higher ups that there is no reason for this limitation to exist and despite rules changes being out of scope etc etc there isn't a person playing this game who can argue/complain against this being removed asap. it might even lead to less pendulums, ponder on that.
  • Grey Seer Snachett wrote:

    There is also a long term typo in the Magister entry 'May take a Doom Bell (Wizard Master only)' I was told by the higher ups that there is no reason for this limitation to exist and despite rules changes being out of scope etc etc there isn't a person playing this game who can argue/complain against this being removed asap. it might even lead to less pendulums, ponder on that.
    First I heard about this. Can you remember who and when? Ill dig in to that then.

    Thanks for the rest of the feedback everyone.
  • Grey Seer Snachett wrote:

    Hugely disappointed with the update.

    - Vermin Guard yet again have been overlooked.... we've been waiting 4 years for them to be a proper option (besides as rod waving bunkers)
    12/13 pts for extra models needed if their stats/rules do not change. At this stage I'm resigning myself to just fielding my beautiful VG as spear rats (probably mixed in with them) A depressing outcome to say the least, but i've completely given up hope. ?(

    -5 pt drop on Gutter blades? They have been extinct since this project began. I'd consider a unit for 150 with scout/ambush, not at 165.
    Grenadiers probably cant be fixed with points after the 5 simultaneous nerfs they received, they need at least 10'' range IMO. I would rotate a unit in at current rules, if they were 155pts or less just to mix it up, and because I love the models.

    Why are the 'buffs' so conservative when everyone knows our internal balance is woeful? these two units have hardly been fielded. How many Grenadier units were there out of 270 lists? it was either 0 or 2 from memory, and the last time I've seen Gutter blades was during the End Times.


    I still wont even think about the machinist at 160 I find him a complete waste at those points, but a few people seem to like him.

    The majority of our special items are sadly useless and 5 point drops are not going to help. The Seal of the House Underminer has not been used in a single list, yet did not change? I mean if it was free I'm not sure I would even use it every game. 10 pts for the laugh and a chance to make a cool custom terrain piece? yea why not. A rework to be at the same level as the Wasteland Torch is the other option. The only thing I got even remotely exited for with this update was the Doomblade+pot of swiftness combo, until I saw the Pot's price rise.

    If you want us to switch from Pendulums/Disciples/double dreadmills/min size chaffing core (which I badly want to) then the alternatives need to be better than they currently are. Grenadiers/Gutter blades/meat grinder/hulks/thunder hulks/vermin guard. This update has done next to nothing to entice me to take more of these.
    The price jumps on the usual suspects are what they are, but we will still use them over the terrible alternatives....believe me when I say I badly want to use something else other then 2-3 x14 Disciples, but their price rise and paltry 5 point drops are not going to entice me to spend the points elsewhere. Disciples have carried this army for me since Beta 1.3 I wish Verminguard/grenadiers/gutterblades etc could take some of the work load of them but alas...

    Monstrous Rat riders got a decent discount, I'm happy for the guys who play them. I myself field my Daemon every game because the model is precious to me. After that I get to choose one between the Pendulum or Abom and then the Built and Bred category is already full. So no rat rider option for me unfortunately, but they do look quite good.

    I dont really care about Naptha throwers, but thats how you boost an unused unit, dropping from 175-150 is a proper discount. Compare 30x VG with trimmings dropping from 600-590 or 5 scouting gutter blades 170-165?? ?(

    I will still ignore slaves unless the min price drops quite a bit. Last time I used them was when 25 were 90 points. I wont spent 145 on a min sized unit.

    There is also a long term typo in the Magister entry 'May take a Doom Bell (Wizard Master only)' :rolleyes: I was told by the higher ups that there is no reason for this limitation to exist and despite rules changes being out of scope etc etc there isn't a person playing this game who can argue/complain against this being removed asap. it might even lead to less pendulums, ponder on that.
    Wonderfully put it dear Grey Seer Snachett. I would also like to see a real point decrease for the thunder hulks and I can't wait for them to get a proper re-work cause the state they are in right now is just sad. I don't think this patch did more then just made us play with less chaff and have to re-work our charachter set-up so they fit under the 1800 points limitation unfortuneatly. Another thing that would help us out alot is to make the a-bomb avaible is like I saw somebody else say that it would get at least a 5+ armor save so it won't get torched turn 1 - 2 by pyro. We struggle already as it is against pyromancy.
  • Cheers Blonde Beer. Its one of those things that VS have been stuck with due to legacy Skaven rules. Imagine other armies being forced to take Masters every time they wanted to field an Altar etc, these clauses have disappeared for other armies.

    I know its not an actual typo, hence the rolling eye smiley :p :p

    It took me a while to find some posts about it. Back in Feb 2018 Frederick and Ereius replied about it, and in fairness looking at it again now, they did specify that it was their personal opinion rather than a Rules Team consensus. The clause has been there at the start, several years before the replies, just for context.

    Frederick wrote:

    i only have a few spare minutes during lunch atm, but on some things i can give you my personal response

    I agree the Master-only-clause on Bell is something we can consider to handle a bit more loose. The Bell seems to be a massive meta-thing, that either is overused or not used at all. When we installed the limit the estimated use justified a restriction.

    Ereius wrote:

    1. The much despised Doombell. Is there an argument against removing the 'Master' clause? Its such a simple change that could see a few more Bell's fielded on the table, resulting in precious data. This limitation is a legacy one from Skaven and the last of its kind. This was not considered to be honest, at least not to my memory I could be wrong. I personally have no objection.
  • Vermin Hulk price increase is a surprise to me. They have been hardly over-performing, I had constantly problems with them making succesful charge roll. Lack of Swiftstride on them sucks. Coupled with Disciples price hike... are we supposed to have only one combat-capable unit per army? My chances to roll successful charge roll will be now even smaller...
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