Pinned 2019 HBE Update Feedback

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  • @Folomo
    I was okay with SE spears getting WS5 back when they didn't have a proper elite infantry, that makes sense.

    But I am certainly sensing a bias against hbe here. SE are these rock-hard elven tarzans while hbe have the equivalent of soft elven peasants (likely wine-addled even).

    Armor-piercing is generally going to be an equipment thing, so if SE can afford super sharp spears, then so can hbe... So by my translation
    hbe = os4/ds4/Ap1
    Se = os5/ds5/Ap1

    Oh and since hbe are so rich, soft, and lazy we can afford Sylvan bows too, since our genetically superior SE cousins need money since they have no Farmers because they are all super elite hunters.
    The change in font size of this post is purely accidental: my phone is stupid, and I am too stupid to fix it.
  • jaith1 wrote:

    Armor-piercing is generally going to be an equipment thing, so if SE can afford super sharp spears, then so can hbe... So by my translation
    hbe = os4/ds4/Ap1
    Se = os5/ds5/Ap1

    Oh and since hbe are so rich, soft, and lazy we can afford Sylvan bows too, since our genetically superior SE cousins need money since they have no Farmers because they are all super elite hunters.
    I think the difference should be:
    SE hunter: OS5/DS5/AP1/ light armor + spear
    HbE citizen: OS4/DS4/AP0/ Heavy armor + super spear(+1 AP)

    Similarly, the Sylven archer has better aim (no penalty while moving) and has a +1 to STR/AP in short range not due to a superior bow, but rather due to grueling daily training and excellent marksmanship.
    The HbE archer in exchange should have magical arrows that do more damage (+1 to wound for example) or hits more easily (+1 to hit) but less special rules themselves, just a simple Aim 3+.

    So the SE troop has better base stats, HbE has better gear, even if the net result is similar. It just translates the fluff better.
  • @Folomo
    I am not a fan of throwing around AP as it is, we are essentially giving all elf spears AP 2 in this scenario? Has Razor Standard also been removed from the game completely?

    An extra AP is certainly more powerful than the extra DS I suggested... but it wouldn't be the worst thing...
    The change in font size of this post is purely accidental: my phone is stupid, and I am too stupid to fix it.
  • Folomo wrote:

    So the SE troop has better base stats, HbE has better gear, even if the net result is similar. It just translates the fluff better.
    While that is true: Stats are therefore either to comprehend.
    Specially if more models would have access to the same special rule, which will put the special rule to the front -> you know have to turn pages and can't quickly on a glance see what final stats there are.

    If this is done for a majority of a book, it will increase the complexity of the book for little gain. Not optimal either.

    The middleground would be to not have a "luxury edition" of every weapon but just generally something like:
    Master Craftmanship
    All weapons have + X
    or All Armour +Y
    or whatever :).

    Of course that way does have other disadvantages (harder to balance, specially if weapons would be the target of the rule).
    The more I think about it, the more I actually like the often suggestion Aegis 6+ for everything for HBE, or something along that line.
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  • Folomo wrote:

    I think the idea of strong gear with decent training should be a HbE trait, rather than the current case of average gear and elite training.
    This would represent better the bourgeois lifestyle that the high elves have.
    I like “better gear, less special rules” for Core. Citizen spears even had heavy armor at one point as an option, so the army used to be able to get 4+ infantry from core. Getting that back would be interesting.

    The “decent training” could also be “focused training”. So units are strong at The One Thing. So where SE are more mobile and have a higher peak (due to overall better rules) and DE are better killers, HbE are better at their specific job.

    Still, “better gear” shouldn’t mean “your special rules are on your gear rather than you”. That’s just semantics.


    PS. This should be applicable to Core (random citizens) rather than special (professional military orders).
  • Aenarion43 wrote:

    Still, “better gear” shouldn’t mean “your special rules are on your gear rather than you”. That’s just semantics.
    Yes and no.
    While the end result of the mechanics is important, how they are presented also matters. Specially if you want to give each army a memorable style according to their background.

    Mechanically an archer with Aim(3+) is equal to an archer with Aim (4+) and a mastercrafted bow that gives him +1 to hit, but they tell a much different story about the faction that made them.

    I have been asked why Silvan elves craft much better blades than dwarves (as the rules convey), and I have no answer.
  • Folomo wrote:

    Aenarion43 wrote:

    Still, “better gear” shouldn’t mean “your special rules are on your gear rather than you”. That’s just semantics.
    Yes and no.While the end result of the mechanics is important, how they are presented also matters. Specially if you want to give each army a memorable style according to their background.

    Mechanically an archer with Aim(3+) is equal to an archer with Aim (4+) and a mastercrafted bow that gives him +1 to hit, but they tell a much different story about the faction that made them.

    I have been asked why Silvan elves craft much better blades than dwarves (as the rules convey), and I have no answer.
    Maybe SE are just very proficient at using paired weapons and having special weapon rules is just less clunky than a rule like "models with this special rule gain +1 AP when using paired weapons/ light lances. "

    It's just flavor, SE gear doesn't have to be superior. It's just a certain style of weapon that SE train with a lot and therefore provides certain advantages.
  • Folomo wrote:

    Aenarion43 wrote:

    Still, “better gear” shouldn’t mean “your special rules are on your gear rather than you”. That’s just semantics.
    Mechanically an archer with Aim(3+) is equal to an archer with Aim (4+) and a mastercrafted bow that gives him +1 to hit, but they tell a much different story about the faction that made them.
    My concern with this approach is that it increases complexity. If every unit has their own super special weapon and super special armor, things get very complicated for litte gain.
  • Henrypmiller wrote:

    arwaker wrote:

    I have a question to the HE community in general, because current topic is somehow touching what I've seen being discussed in DH forum.

    Some DH players say that their core units are weak and hardly worth their points. What do you HE players think about DH core? What in your opinion is very strong or even outstanding in DH core? Is there something you envy in DH core?

    I want to increase the inter-faction communication, and avoid these always same echo-chamber discussions.
    I feel that DH core is really strong.
    S4 (or S3 with an ap buff - spears character, banner etc) shield dwarves are really tough for elves to play against. The only way to break them is to get them in the flank/combo charge them and do enough wounds to them. This is not always possible due to defensive magic, good chaff, hold stones, etc. And requires you to have the right units in the right place (list design, player ability - high learning curve compared to dwarves on easy mode).

    Charging them in the front is suicide with a 5++ for most elf units as they rely on first turn damage output. The issue for me is that HE core simply cant challenge DH core in a vaccum. Not to mention those nasty characters which basically mean you cant put your own characters in there without high risk.

    When I play dwarves I feel that it is a game which is my army vs the dwarfs army's chaff and warmachines. I win the game by chaffing the blocks, avoiding the miners coling on and alpha striking my unarmored units, killing the ancillary units, leaving the blocks alone and attempting to draw an objective.

    Usually ganging up on a unit turn 6 is not possible with whats left of my army and too risky.

    The shooting core is okay.

    Yeah but you're a jabroni.
  • Folomo wrote:

    Aenarion43 wrote:

    Still, “better gear” shouldn’t mean “your special rules are on your gear rather than you”. That’s just semantics.
    Yes and no.While the end result of the mechanics is important, how they are presented also matters. Specially if you want to give each army a memorable style according to their background.

    Mechanically an archer with Aim(3+) is equal to an archer with Aim (4+) and a mastercrafted bow that gives him +1 to hit, but they tell a much different story about the faction that made them.

    I have been asked why Silvan elves craft much better blades than dwarves (as the rules convey), and I have no answer.
    This is a waste of time, I agree with @Aenarion43 here.

    This is a freaking world where 2 armies with the exact same number of points meet eachother and fight. How the hell are we going to explain that situation?

    Mechanics are essential, fluff is purely cosmetic. I don't need to know the Difference between a Wood elf and a HBE is one is awesome because he has Super genetics while the other one has Super gear.

    Sylvan Elves don't craft better paired weapons than dwarf. They just have models with a goofy double bladed spear. So it is really just a silly double-bladed darthmaul swordstaff. That would be my stupid answer to a stupid question.
    The change in font size of this post is purely accidental: my phone is stupid, and I am too stupid to fix it.
  • Kopistar wrote:

    msu117 wrote:

    oh boy I have a feeling this discussion will only grow and fester in a month or two.
    A month or 2 ???
    please tell me this is a bait.
    no, I am just simply alluding to the fact that I expect more information or spoilers about ID in the near future. I would say that army is quite high on eliteness level and I anticipate that the conversation that just took place could crop up again as new stuff is reveal. The conversation was mentioning normal DH as something quite high and soon we will have brand new ID dwarves. I have no specific information on releases for anything but I would expect the possibility of holiday sneak peaks and more info in the first quarter of new year is all.
    “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” - Henry Ford
  • jaith1 wrote:

    @Shako
    Brillant quote from a brillant movie. It was funny the first time but its use on this forum has been getting tiresome and infantile.

    So please tell me why fluff is anywhere close to as important as mechanics? Lets have an adult conversation?

    Because the underlying work of the project has been decided to be bottom up (fluff first) design instead of top down (mechanics first).
    I can't tell you about the reasons, I suspect one being to avoid a certain company from getting the idea to form a lawsuit for copyright reasons.

    A lot of people also underestimate the amount of fluff/hobby players just because the vocal people (= people using this forum) have a tend towards tournament play.

    Starcraft might be a great game for its mechanics. I bet Blizzard still made more money from "fluffplayers" who bought it to play through the campaign and the odd game or two.

    I'm not fluff is even more important than mechanics. But you won't end with a good game favoring any of those to much. You'll need a good amount of both.



    msu117 wrote:

    I have no specific information on releases for anything but I would expect the possibility of holiday sneak peaks and more info in the first quarter of new year is all.
    You me like this: the-ninth-age.com/community/ne…rnal-dwarves-lab-spoiler/ ;)
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