SA Patch 2.1+2.2 – Feedback and Discussion

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The brand new army book for Infernal Dwarves is finally available, along with a small surprise! Remember that it is a beta version, and provide us your feedback!

  • Missing, most critically from the summaries, is the new part where the various types aren’t different species, nor necessarily organized biologically by caste. Saurians seem to utilize some sort of chemistry or flesh magic to create their variants at a tadpole/egg level. Cuatl development was implied to be a stress response.

    9th age SA are free to choose professions across species lines, though the presence of a developed Cuatl seems to subordinate the society, in a way that may not be pleasant for standard SA living.

    IMO it’s interesting to think of Skinks as the baseline, and making conscious or instinctual choices based on their situation. Life without a Cuatl was good, but a council has been convened to discuss whether a new one needs to be spawned for the first time in generations, and there’s a general unease about doing that; a single one tends to override society, let alone many.

    Source is in a scroll, but god knows which one.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Dopey ().

  • Traumdieb wrote:

    Amen at @Red88

    how about changing the obsidian terresract

    apprentice / adept only
    The bearer gets +1 to its casting rolls

    Nobody takes the current version anyway
    I Like, if a double is rolled the spell gets +2. ==> would love it.... more dices higher Chance +2 ==> but higher miscast Chance ==> very funny :D
    HI,
    My name is Wolfgang
    from Germany
    I play Daemon Legion and Reptilians :)
  • I post here something I wrote in the Infernal Dwarves section which is some comparisson I want to tell all the Saurians are weak fraction why I favour SA over my Infernal Dwarves, which are my major army.

    Post start:

    Hmm, just wanted to write something about what currently annoys me about Infernal Dwarves or what I like at Saurian Ancients more.

    I play since Belama (very big team tourney in Germany), where I entered with Infernal Dwarves, mainly Saurian Ancients and here is a small comparisson.

    If I compare my Prophet and BSB 900 pts
    Prophet, Master Occultism, Shield, Infernal Weapon, Heirloom, Tablet of Ashuruk, Destinies Call, 640 pts
    Vizier, Shield, BSB, Aether Icon, Banner of a relentless company, Obsidian Rock,260
    15 Immortals, Icon of Inferno, C, S, Shields, 455

    Total 1355

    With
    Cuatl, BSB, Aether Icon, Rending Banner, Magical Heirloom, Obsidian Rock, Grasp of the Immortal, Symbiosis (note I could take trained by birth to get a sixt spell), 860
    19 Temple Guard, C, S, Totem of Mixoatl, 588

    1448 pts. The block with Temple guard feels much more secure. The magic has way more range.

    Also with the possibility to buff my Saurian Warriors block with a Skink Priest (prefer Shamanism) and a beast of an Warlord (1+ rerollable, agi 9 when charged, 2 wounds per wound) either at Temple Guard or Saurian Warriors it feels I am nowhere near at this level with any Overlord build and anything I can build in core to which the Overlord is bound. Note that Saurians only need 900 pts core and that I feel I can buid more decent variations at Core that arent completely green.

    Also the Taurosaur with his Engine offers protection from range and is able to destroy entire units. Maybe its time to switch to close combat engine.

    Post end.

    Note that I won tourneys with Infernal Dwarves and that I play somewhat the same tactic with SA and ID.
  • yrtomin wrote:

    Maybe we need a LAB brainstorm thread.
    I think we are to far away from the LAB. Given the point that I dont think we will be next in line after ID, DE, VS or at least that there is no plan announced yet. Even if, we are currently 1 to 1,5 years away from that so 2021 point change is a lot nearer than this.

    For me things I would change

    Obsidian Terraseract to boost the Skink Priest
    Engine of the ancient available on Thyroscotus as an alternative to Taurosaur with Engine
    Soul Weaver getting weaker, cheaper and not working with Veil Tokens
    Telepathik Link on Cuatl
    Mayhaps Primal Roar as an alternative to the Mystic Traveller.
  • Zamo wrote:

    I dont see a reason for VS to be soon in the lab process too... but life sucks...
    VS is too strong in certain things which necessarily need to be balanced (toxic gunline versus KoE for example)

    Eymuster wrote:

    LABs are curently part of the world building process, and developers chose to build the world from the Villains first. So after Rats, I think we will see vampires.
    Than, HbE and EoS needs their army books ASAP. I think, a peripheral faction like the Saurus are not top priority.
    I see no reason for SA LAB to be the next in line... Except that I'm a SA player.
    Why do you think EoS and HbE above SA?
  • I believe the LAB order is chosen by IP resemblance urgency. Factions & models identified strongly with a different game world need to be retuned with less overlapping fluff & design. VS harken to a GW zeitgeist, as once did the demonic factions. ID & DE model ranges were also rather non-generic fantasy, so couldn’t afford to sit for a few years. All in my opinion, I can’t read minds.

    SA are up in the air. I think there’s a lot of overlap, but perhaps the fact of ‘dinosaurs!’ is enough to hold up to plausible scrutiny, and thus they can afford to sit for a while. I dunno.

    I doubt we’ll be seeing KoE, OK, or DH for a while, as they’re pretty mundane fantasy.
  • I'm down for anything that will make SA distinct and alien.

    In my head-canon, SA's bizarreness is so pervasive because SA are in fact an extra-dimensional species. They're not from the Veil; they're as material & mortal as any human, but they're from somewhere else, and long ago a small batch of refugees 'tunneled' through the Veil escaping some greater unknown captors. Their technology we see on tabletop is just that- somebody else's designs they hijacked and have been maintaining and copying for millennia.

    The focus SA have on order is as much inherent to their makeup as it is learned; their own mastery over the world in the Dawn Age is a reflection of the system they escaped. Or rather the Cuatl's mastery, for skink and saurian alike chaff under the severe ideal conditions Cuatl prefer to engineer. I like the idea that the collapse at the end of the Dawn Age was as much an outside set of catastrophes as internal; skinks slowly poisoning Cuatl over a generation, 'accidents' happening to the overpowering leadership.

    Such facts predate the Dawn Era, and have been mostly forgotten by the SA. Only on the oldest stellae standing are there carvings of SA which look slightly different than the current generations- Cuatl with elongated skulls, skinks with cloak-like membranes, and allusions of an era devoted to maintaining a quiet low-profile Eden.

    This would all be pre-history though, and be entirely irrelevant over the course of 9 ages.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Dopey ().

  • arwaker wrote:

    Who knows Battletech background? You know Clan culture? Is this eugenic focus of the society something worth to take inspiration from for the SA background? Making soldiers bread for a specific purpose. Having rivalring genetic 'houses'/breeds/totems?
    I'm advocacting for Saurus "Strains" instead of totems for a while now.. Totems are too "indian" for a supposed techno-magician race, unless theres a good write up to make them also sound like ancient engines.. Also change names of totems; Raptor instead of Jaguar, for example..

    Here is an even crazier idea, just for speculation: Saurus are a genomagically engineered cross-over of skink and caiman... Depending on the process the saurus can retain certain aspects to a higher degree. Those with serpent keep higher agility; Raptor, the speed,and Croc is obviously inherent toughness of caiman.

    Now I'm gonna start homebrewing DinoTech universe. Clan Aztech Raptors :D
  • Dopey wrote:

    I'm down for anything that will make SA distinct and alien.

    In my head-canon, SA's bizarreness is so pervasive because SA are in fact an extra-dimensional species. They're not from the Veil; they're as material & mortal as any human, but they're from somewhere else, and long ago a small batch of refugees 'tunneled' through the Veil escaping some greater unknown captors. Their technology we see on tabletop is just that- somebody else's designs they hijacked and have been maintaining and copying for millennia.
    Two posts in a row, this thread is great :D
    They came from an entirely alien universe. Hence they established a great world spanning empire before the coming of other races, but their society over millennia deteriorated...

    Or; They are coming back from the end of our universe, their great empire is actually is just a myth; it's something that will happen in the far future; and they are in fact just arriving. The motiffs of them enslaving the other races are actually foresights from a grim future...
    All Hail Illhid saurians :)
  • I really dont like new fluff at all... but at all...

    But well, we are not in 9th Age for the fluff really, so Its something I dont care as long as the SA book is well designed.
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  • Well... If I can see saurus born inside enemys bodies and then getting out through their chest with a roar...

    Maybe its worth it and start liking the fluff haha
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  • DanT wrote:

    If the problem is that Cuatl is an auto-include and causes structural problems, the logical solutions are
    (A) Make him less elite
    (B) Make sure there are alternatives to him (which exist, so presumably this is an internal points issue)
    (C) Make him more expensive and the rest of the book cheaper (to maintain external balance)

    But the solutions proposed here seem to be
    (A) Make him cheaper
    (B) Make him more elite

    Both of those things are going to make him more auto-include.

    I am not surprised people harped on (B) a bit. It's the point of weakness; the Cuatl is the only Wizard Master, the only access for 4/6 SA lores and the most secure command bubble. Not taking a Cuatl cuts off a lot.

    arwaker wrote:

    So, some players think Cuatl is too expensive, but they still play it, because they care less about winning an more about their game flavour. This is a legit argument, but unfortunately not possible to prove. If management would take such claims serious, the whole project would be useless pretty soon. How to justify such aroach towards other factions? Everyone can claim such situation and every single unit in the game would have to become cheaper, because for every single unit you can find someone to have this opinion.

    The best way of proving whether something is op or up (or costs too much, not much enough) is external expert opinion and list attendance statistics. In the past most emphasis was put on expert opinion, new process weights the statistics more.

    "Expert opinion" was a subpar idea. Experts have a specialized skill set that doesn't 1:1 correlate to usefulness in game design.

    If people are taking Cuatl despite it being bad, they should be losing more often.

    And if people think it's overpriced but win while taking it anyway... evidence suggests they are wrong.

    arwaker wrote:

    For example: Which of the following two directions you would like the Cuatl to develop in (only these two, you can't choose another, because I need a clear statement to sort the opinions somehow):

    Should the Cuatl become:
    a) Less powerful but cheaper
    b) More powerful but also more expensive

    If (a): What should be taken away:
    a1) Magic Power
    a2) Survivability
    a3) Something else

    If (b): What should he get:
    b1) Magic Power
    b2) Survivability
    b3) Something else

    I feel like "Cuatl is fine, add a Skink Wizard Master" should be an option.

    Dopey wrote:

    Missing, most critically from the summaries, is the new part where the various types aren’t different species, nor necessarily organized biologically by caste. Saurians seem to utilize some sort of chemistry or flesh magic to create their variants at a tadpole/egg level. Cuatl development was implied to be a stress response.

    9th age SA are free to choose professions across species lines, though the presence of a developed Cuatl seems to subordinate the society, in a way that may not be pleasant for standard SA living.

    IMO it’s interesting to think of Skinks as the baseline, and making conscious or instinctual choices based on their situation. Life without a Cuatl was good, but a council has been convened to discuss whether a new one needs to be spawned for the first time in generations, and there’s a general unease about doing that; a single one tends to override society, let alone many.

    Source is in a scroll, but god knows which one.

    Interesting to see what BG looks like from the other side.

    Traumdieb wrote:

    yrtomin wrote:

    Maybe we need a LAB brainstorm thread.
    I think we are to far away from the LAB. Given the point that I dont think we will be next in line after ID, DE, VS or at least that there is no plan announced yet. Even if, we are currently 1 to 1,5 years away from that so 2021 point change is a lot nearer than this.
    For me things I would change

    Obsidian Terraseract to boost the Skink Priest
    Engine of the ancient available on Thyroscotus as an alternative to Taurosaur with Engine
    Soul Weaver getting weaker, cheaper and not working with Veil Tokens
    Telepathik Link on Cuatl
    Mayhaps Primal Roar as an alternative to the Mystic Traveller.

    The LAB order is a rolling work in progress. If it hasn't been announced, it's subject to change. But yes, there's about a 1-year turnaround on LAB work, so yeah, problems will not be solved immediately.

    Dopey wrote:

    I believe the LAB order is chosen by IP resemblance urgency. Factions & models identified strongly with a different game world need to be retuned with less overlapping fluff & design. VS harken to a GW zeitgeist, as once did the demonic factions. ID & DE model ranges were also rather non-generic fantasy, so couldn’t afford to sit for a few years. All in my opinion, I can’t read minds.

    SA are up in the air. I think there’s a lot of overlap, but perhaps the fact of ‘dinosaurs!’ is enough to hold up to plausible scrutiny, and thus they can afford to sit for a while. I dunno.

    I doubt we’ll be seeing KoE, OK, or DH for a while, as they’re pretty mundane fantasy.

    It's not being decided by IP worries. We are (AFAIK) alright on that front now.

    LAB order now is being decided by a weighing of all the factors. IP is not a major worry; we have a plan ("create an intricate and detailed setting and tease it through books and ninth scrolls") and as long as we stick to it we should be fine.

    It's thus not impossible that any given army might next (bar the ones who've been LABbed already), depending on how factors get weighed up.

    Background Team